Understanding "the beginning" and "the end"

Freedm · Jan 5, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
It has nothing to do with being humble. I know that, with His death and resurrection, Jesus ended the old covenant and put the new covenant into effect.

Where does it say the old covenant ended with his resurrection?

Spiritual Jew · Jan 5, 2021

Freedm said:
Where does it say the old covenant ended with his resurrection?

It says it ended with His death, but of course, His death and resurrection go hand in hand.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The handwriting of ordinances refers to the Mosaic law that the old covenant was based on. No one could be saved under the old covenant because the animal sacrifices did not take away sins. Only Christ's blood, which established the new covenant, can do that.

Is isn't at all reasonable to think that the old covenant and new covenant were both in effect at the same time for even a second, let alone 40 years.

Freedm · Jan 6, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
It says it ended with His death, but of course, His death and resurrection go hand in hand.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The handwriting of ordinances refers to the Mosaic law that the old covenant was based on. No one could be saved under the old covenant because the animal sacrifices did not take away sins. Only Christ's blood, which established the new covenant, can do that.

Is isn't at all reasonable to think that the old covenant and new covenant were both in effect at the same time for even a second, let alone 40 years.

How do you reconcile that passage with Hebrews 8:13, written likely around 63 AD, indicating that the old covenant has not yet disappeared at that time?

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

sovereigngrace · Jan 6, 2021

Freedm said:
How do you reconcile that passage with Hebrews 8:13, written likely around 63 AD, indicating that the old covenant has not yet disappeared at that time?

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

I notice you avoided #258, which addresses/rebuts your argument. It is important that you address it.

Timtofly · Jan 6, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
You have definitely not proved any legitimacy for the temple in Jerusalem in AD70 being the heavens and earth. That is frankly ridiculous and fanciful. All you have proven is that you swallowed what your Preterist teachers taught you without testing it by the Word or common sense.

What? You move up a new heaven and earth by 1000 years, and then reject someone who moves it even earlier?

Spiritual Jew · Jan 7, 2021

Freedm said:
How do you reconcile that passage with Hebrews 8:13, written likely around 63 AD, indicating that the old covenant has not yet disappeared at that time?

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

I already explained this. It was only the traces of the old covenant that had not yet disappeared since the temple buildings were still standing at at the time. But, that does not mean the old covenant was still in effect at that time. It clearly says the old covenant was made obsolete before that verse was written. If it was obsolete, how could it still be in effect? It couldn't be. And how could it be in effect at the same time as the new covenant being in effect, which it was upon Christ's death? That is impossible as the two covenants were directly opposed to each other.

It was just the evidence of the old covenant's existence that was still there because of the temple buildings and such, but that was about to disappear not long after that was written since we know Jerusalem was attacked and the temple buildings were destroyed in 70 AD.

The Colossians 2:13-14 passage is quite clear that Jesus took away the old covenant and its ordinances by nailing it to His cross, is it not?

Freedm · Jan 7, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
I already explained this. It was only the traces of the old covenant that had not yet disappeared since the temple buildings were still standing at at the time. But, that does not mean the old covenant was still in effect at that time. It clearly says the old covenant was made obsolete before that verse was written. If it was obsolete, how could it still be in effect? It couldn't be.

Come now. Surely you know at least one person who's still using a VCR, or a flip phone. Obsolete does not mean unusable. It only means that there's something much better available.

sovereigngrace · Jan 7, 2021

Freedm said:
Come now. Surely you know at least one person who's still using a VCR, or a flip phone. Obsolete does not mean unusable. It only means that there's something much better available.

I gave you a more apt analogy (#258) which you avoided.

After Christ’s death and the ripping of the curtain in two, the Jewish temple in Jerusalem was rendered wholly redundant. Its usefulness was over. It was obsolete. It remaining standing up until AD70 did not man it had any further earthly purpose, or that the old covenant remained in effect. It was just like a human corpse awaiting burial. It had no vitality, no relevance and no purpose. Once Christ died, the old covenant died. Degeneration immediately set in, just like the decay that kicks in when a human gives up the ghost.

2 Corinthians 3:11: “For if that which is done away (katargeo or rendered entirely idle, useless) was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.”

Hebrews 8:13: “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old (palaioō, worn out, decayed, declared obsolete). Now that which decayeth (palaioō, worn out, decayed, declared obsolete) and waxeth old (gerasko) is ready to vanish away.”

Even though a corpse may look asleep it is lifeless. All you have is rotting flesh. Decomposition has set in immediately. It is gradually decaying, and will ultimately vanish away. But that entity has no further earthly use. Its time is up.

There cannot be 2 covenants ongoing at the one time. That is absurd! One superseded the other. There cannot be 2 competing priesthoods. One replaced the other.

The book of Hebrews destroys any notion of the continuation of the old covenant priests. It is quite inconceivable that this defunct priesthood would be needed after the commencement of God's true eternal priesthood. Hebrews 7:19 tells us: “the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.” Christ owns the only priestly office that God recognises for all eternity. Hebrews 7:22 confirms, “By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.” For “he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises” (Hebrews 8:6).

Remember, Hebrews was written in-between the cross and AD70!

We have entered into a new divine arrangement that supersedes the shadow, type and figure. Man has one true heavenly high priest and requires none other. For you to argue for two competing priesthood underlines the dangers of your teaching.

sovereigngrace · Jan 7, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
I already explained this. It was only the traces of the old covenant that had not yet disappeared since the temple buildings were still standing at at the time. But, that does not mean the old covenant was still in effect at that time. It clearly says the old covenant was made obsolete before that verse was written. If it was obsolete, how could it still be in effect? It couldn't be. And how could it be in effect at the same time as the new covenant being in effect, which it was upon Christ's death? That is impossible as the two covenants were directly opposed to each other.

It was just the evidence of the old covenant's existence that was still there because of the temple buildings and such, but that was about to disappear not long after that was written since we know Jerusalem was attacked and the temple buildings were destroyed in 70 AD.

The Colossians 2:13-14 passage is quite clear that Jesus took away the old covenant and its ordinances by nailing it to His cross, is it not?

Yes! Colossians 2:14 plainly and unambiguously declares, that Christ's atonement resulted in the “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

The Greek word for “Blotting out” here is exaleiphō (eks-ä-lā'-fō) meaning: ‘to wipe off, wipe away, to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out’

These old covenant ordinances (rites and rituals) pertaining to the ceremonial law were obliterated at the cross.

For those that still anticipate the renaissance of the old abolished ordinances we need to ask: When did (or will) the “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances” occur? From this passage it is clear, Christ “took it out of the way” by “nailing it to his cross.” These ordinances embraced the old covenant civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. They were finished at the cross.

Spiritual Jew · Jan 8, 2021

Freedm said:
Come now. Surely you know at least one person who's still using a VCR, or a flip phone. Obsolete does not mean unusable. It only means that there's something much better available.

In this case obsolete does mean unusable. The old covenant had no purpose any longer at that point. How could it? The new covenant was put in effect. It was all about Christ and the need for people to put their faith in Him and obey Him.

The animal sacrifices and ordinances of the old covenant no longer had any purpose at that point because their purpose was to foreshadow Christ's sacrifice (Hebrews 10:1). Once He made His sacrifice the animal sacrifices were of no use any longer and their purpose had been fulfilled.

Christian Gedge · Jan 11, 2021

Just to support what you are saying, there is this early church statement that came out during the period before ad 70.

“For we have ascertained beyond doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices which you offer, the time of sacrifices having now passed away; and because ye will not acknowledge that the time for offering victims is now past, therefore the temple shall be destroyed.”
(Clement, Recognitions, Ch. 64)

Spiritual Jew · Jan 11, 2021

Christian Gedge said:
Just to support what you are saying, there is this early church statement that came out during the period before ad 70.

“For we have ascertained beyond doubt that God is much rather displeased with the sacrifices which you offer, the time of sacrifices having now passed away; and because ye will not acknowledge that the time for offering victims is now past, therefore the temple shall be destroyed.”
(Clement, Recognitions, Ch. 64)

Their understanding was no doubt based on scripture like this:

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

jeffweedaman · Jan 18, 2021

Havent read all the thread , but wonderfully informative dialogue from post 268

claninja · Jan 22, 2021

Freedm said:
Where does it say the old covenant ended with his resurrection?

1.) The old covenant was made obsolete for God's people at the 1st advent, through Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension.

a.)The old covenant was "made obsolete" for those in Christ, at the 1st advent.
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

b.)Christ "did away" with the first covenant at the 1st advent in order to establish the new covenant.
Hebrews 10:9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

c.)The law was a guardian for God's people "until" the coming of Christ.
galatians 3:24-25 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

d.)He set aside and nailed "to the cross", the record of debt and legal demands of the law.
colossians 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

2.)This obsolete old covenant was fading away and was soon to vanish in the 1st century.

a.) the old covenant was growing old and ready to vanish away, when Hebrews was written
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

b.) the old covenant was fading away when 2 corinthians was written
2 corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

3.) Jewish Christian and Non-Christian Jews still partook in the the old obsolete covenant during the time it was fading away and growing old and ready to soon vanish.

a.) Christian Jews were zealous for the Law of Moses, long after the cross
acts 21:20-24 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

b.) Paul preached the gospel to the Jews, who were under the law, long after the cross
1 corinthians 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.

c.) The Jerusalem council seemed fit, under the guidance of the Spirit, not to burden the gentile Christians with all the Laws of Moses. There is no mention of the council of Jerusalem lifting the the burden for Jewish Christians.
acts 15:28-29 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

d.) The Jews that remained under the old obsolete covenant allegorically related to slaves in "present" earthly Jerusalem.
galatians 4:24-25 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children

e.) the curse of the old obsolete covenant would fall on those who rejected Christ
acts 3:22-23 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

In Summation:

IMHO, the righteous standards of God are eternal and never changing. What changes is the agreement (covenant) between God and mankind. The old covenant was a temporal agreement between God and the nation of Israel, in place until the time of Christ. This agreement was simply an instructor pointing to the reality in Christ. In this agreement, Israel would obey all of God's righteous standards in order to receive blessings. If they disobeyed, they would receive curses.

When Christ came, He fulfilled the old covenant agreement, not only in perfect obedience, but also as the body that the shadow of the law pointed to. This action by Christ effectively superseded the old covenant with the new covenant agreement. Under the new covenant, all of the shadows/types and righteous standards of law of moses are now fulfilled in Christ, and thus fulfilled in those who are in Christ. We now strive to love God and our neighbor, not bound in slavery by the law in order to earn blessings or standing before God, but in freedom.

The old covenant agreement became obsolete at the cross. Those that attempted to partake in the obsolete old covenant agreement could only do so until 66-70ad, when it was permanently removed.

edit:

I think this is a good comparison

On mount Sinai, God entered into the old covenant agreement with the nation of Israel. Following this, Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years prior to entering the promised land. During this wandering many wanted to return to slavery in Egypt. Ultimately, Israel wandered until the disobedient generation died out, and the "faithful" entered the promised land.

So too, the new covenant was established at the cross. The following 40 years, many Jews returned to the slavery of the old obsolete covenant, and ultimately the generation that rejected Christ, was utterly destroyed in the Jewish Roman war from 66-70ad.

sovereigngrace · Feb 11, 2021

claninja said:
1.) The old covenant was made obsolete for God's people at the 1st advent, through Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension.

a.)The old covenant was "made obsolete" for those in Christ, at the 1st advent.
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

b.)Christ "did away" with the first covenant at the 1st advent in order to establish the new covenant.
Hebrews 10:9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

c.)The law was a guardian for God's people "until" the coming of Christ.
galatians 3:24-25 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

d.)He set aside and nailed "to the cross", the record of debt and legal demands of the law.
colossians 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

2.)This obsolete old covenant was fading away and was soon to vanish in the 1st century.

a.) the old covenant was growing old and ready to vanish away, when Hebrews was written
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

b.) the old covenant was fading away when 2 corinthians was written
2 corinthians 3:11 For if what is fading away came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

3.) Jewish Christian and Non-Christian Jews still partook in the the old obsolete covenant during the time it was fading away and growing old and ready to soon vanish.

a.) Christian Jews were zealous for the Law of Moses, long after the cross
acts 21:20-24 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

b.) Paul preached the gospel to the Jews, who were under the law, long after the cross
1 corinthians 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.

c.) The Jerusalem council seemed fit, under the guidance of the Spirit, not to burden the gentile Christians with all the Laws of Moses. There is no mention of the council of Jerusalem lifting the the burden for Jewish Christians.
acts 15:28-29 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

d.) The Jews that remained under the old obsolete covenant allegorically related to slaves in "present" earthly Jerusalem.
galatians 4:24-25 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children

e.) the curse of the old obsolete covenant would fall on those who rejected Christ
acts 3:22-23 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you. And it shall be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.’

In Summation:

IMHO, the righteous standards of God are eternal and never changing. What changes is the agreement (covenant) between God and mankind. The old covenant was a temporal agreement between God and the nation of Israel, in place until the time of Christ. This agreement was simply an instructor pointing to the reality in Christ. In this agreement, Israel would obey all of God's righteous standards in order to receive blessings. If they disobeyed, they would receive curses.

When Christ came, He fulfilled the old covenant agreement, not only in perfect obedience, but also as the body that the shadow of the law pointed to. This action by Christ effectively superseded the old covenant with the new covenant agreement. Under the new covenant, all of the shadows/types and righteous standards of law of moses are now fulfilled in Christ, and thus fulfilled in those who are in Christ. We now strive to love God and our neighbor, not bound in slavery by the law in order to earn blessings or standing before God, but in freedom.

The old covenant agreement became obsolete at the cross. Those that attempted to partake in the obsolete old covenant agreement could only do so until 66-70ad, when it was permanently removed.

edit:

I think this is a good comparison

On mount Sinai, God entered into the old covenant agreement with the nation of Israel. Following this, Israel wandered in the desert for 40 years prior to entering the promised land. During this wandering many wanted to return to slavery in Egypt. Ultimately, Israel wandered until the disobedient generation died out, and the "faithful" entered the promised land.

So too, the new covenant was established at the cross. The following 40 years, many Jews returned to the slavery of the old obsolete covenant, and ultimately the generation that rejected Christ, was utterly destroyed in the Jewish Roman war from 66-70ad.

The old covenant died with Christ. The decaying corpse may not have been immediately buried but it was gone.

claninja · Feb 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The old covenant died with Christ. The decaying corpse may not have been immediately buried but it was gone.

Right, did I not say it became obsolete at the cross?

Christian Gedge · Feb 11, 2021

claninja said:
a.) Christian Jews were zealous for the Law of Moses, long after the cross
acts 21:20-24 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

I hope you realise that a riot prevented Paul from sacrificing an animal. Only the Nazirite purification rites were started and even they (far less significant than Passover or DOA) were not completed.

claninja · Feb 12, 2021

Christian Gedge said:
I hope you realise that a riot prevented Paul from sacrificing an animal. Only the Nazirite purification rites were started and even they (far less significant than Passover or DOA) were not completed.

The point I was making was that the book of Acts recorded Christian Jews as being zealous for the law (acts 21:20). James, one of the elders, even goes so far to ask Paul to partake in a purification ritual to put at ease the minds of the Jewish Christians ( acts 21:21-24).

So while the old covenant was made obsolete at the cross, many Christians Jews still partook in it.

Why do you think that is? It’s an honest question, as I’m not so sure myself.

sovereigngrace · Feb 12, 2021

claninja said:
The point I was making was that the book of Acts recorded Christian Jews as being zealous for the law (acts 21:20). James, one of the elders, even goes so far to ask Paul to partake in a purification ritual to put at ease the minds of the Jewish Christians ( acts 21:21-24).

So while the old covenant was made obsolete at the cross, many Christians Jews still partook in it.

Why do you think that is? It’s an honest question, as I’m not so sure myself.

There was such an overlap between Israeli citizenship and religion that these things were not surprising. This did not insinuate that the old covenant had any veracity.

claninja · Feb 12, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
There was such an overlap between Israeli citizenship and religion that these things were not surprising. This did not insinuate that the old covenant had had veracity.

Of course I agree with you, but tell that to the 1st century Christian Jews who were zealous for law. This in turn required James to ask Paul to partake in a purification ritual so as to satisfy the minds of the Christian Jews.

I'm curious if the Jews from Asia were stirring up only non Christian Jews against Paul, or if Christian Jews were a part of the riot as well.

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