In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

Paidiske

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I can see where "forcing" this kind of change in someone could be psychologically violent. But what if they are desiring this?

If I may draw an analogy, this sort of change could be described as trying to re-arrange your brain. Now, think of another part of your body; say we decided to surgically re-arrange your hand. You might desire it, but there's no way we could do it without violence to the existing structures of bone and muscle and significant - even extreme - pain. While that's only an analogy, something similar would be true for your brain.

But even worse, in the case of conversion therapy, people would be attempting that re-arranging despite having no effective method to do so! They'd be causing all that pain and damage, while not achieving the promised outcome.

I would like to reiterate I don't know much about conversion therapy or the different kinds of conversion therapy.

I really suggest you do some reading, then.

But it sounds like some may be more like an AA type of therapy or very low key stuff. Is that true or are all of them physically violent or contain yelling, belittling verbal assaultive behaviors?

Even "very low key" therapy can be traumatic. One doesn't have to be violent or assaulting someone to do them significant harm. Words have power; and power to hurt.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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That's simply not true. Anyone who's sat with and listened to the accounts of those who've been subject to these practices know how deeply traumatic they are.

Is there a link to their accounts, so I can educate myself? If not what was said?
 
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FutureAndAHope

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If I may draw an analogy, this sort of change could be described as trying to re-arrange your brain. Now, think of another part of your body; say we decided to surgically re-arrange your hand. You might desire it, but there's no way we could do it without violence to the existing structures of bone and muscle and significant - even extreme - pain. While that's only an analogy, something similar would be true for your brain.

Again you are saying that homosexuality is biological, the bible does not say that. It shows it (generally) as a process, where God gives a person over to desire, as in Romans.

We also know:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Jas 1:13

If God does not tempt anyone to sin, if he is not the cause of sin, why would he biologically wire someone to be a sinner? Be careful you don't take on too much of the world's teaching. It is good to have some knowledge, but the word of God takes priority over it.
 
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Paidiske

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Is there a link to their accounts, so I can educate myself? If not what was said?

I was speaking of what has been related to me personally in my pastoral care of people. But yes, if you google something like "survivor accounts of conversion therapy" you will find many resources.

Again you are saying that homosexuality is biological, the bible does not say that. It shows it (generally) as a process, where God gives a person over to desire, as in Romans.

The Bible speaks of various acts, but it does not speak of orientation, nor did the languages of the Bible even have terminology for that concept. At best, when it comes to orientation, we are arguing from the silence of Scripture, which as we all know is a very shaky foundation indeed.
 
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hedrick

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Again you are saying that homosexuality is biological, the bible does not say that. It shows it (generally) as a process, where God gives a person over to desire, as in Romans.
Roman 1 is very explicitly not talking about orientation. It is talking about pagans, who, sated with their normal sex, moved on to what was unnatural. These are not homosexuals, but heterosexuals engaged in orgies. There is no sign that this was intended as a general description of how people become homosexual. It was part of a condemnation of pagans, not a treatment of sexual ethics or orientation.

As I'm sure you know, A implies B is not equivalent to B implies A. Saying that pagans were moved to have same-sex relations is not equivalent to saying that all those who have same-sex relations are pagans or even that they are wrong.

And this assumes that Rom 1 was Paul's view, rather than a view to which he was objecting. The latter is more likely when you look at the whole flow of the argument. Paul is responding to the claim that Christians must become Jews first. This was grounded in Jewish feelings of superiority (though that wasn't universal among Jews). Rom 1 states the position: Gentiles are inherently immoral. Stating your opponents' position before responding is known as "diatribe style." All the commentaries I've checked say that this part of Romans used that style. The response is two-fold. First, in Rom 2 he responds that Gentiles are not inherently immoral. Indeed many of them have the Law present in their hearts. He also points out that Jews aren't so perfect themselves.
 
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SilverBear

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Let's upack that for a bit. Let's look at one of those clobber passages.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: - Romans 1:26 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 1:26 - American Standard Version

Exigete that for us so we can see where your thoughts lie on this.

not against nature its against THEIR nature

Paul specifically used the Greek word paraphysi here, meaning to engage in action(s) which is uncharacteristic or against the nature of that person or more simply an individual denying his/her true nature.
if Paul were saying to go against nature or the natural order he would have written ενάντια στο νόμο or cenántia sto nómo.
 
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SilverBear

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There is no physical or psychological violence found in modern conversion therapy. If there was like I said before it would be one isolated guy, in a cult somewhere. The kinds of mainstream conversion "type" therapy at worst would be an accountability group like AA.
of course there is and it's well documented

Electrodes may be placed on the client’s genitals in order to provide painful shocks when the client is exposed to gay themed images.
Ref: Shidlo, A.; Schroeder, M.; Drescher, J. eds. Sexual conversion therapy: ethical, clinical, and research perspectives 2011

“Hold therapy” is almost exclusively done with children. The child is physically restrained while the therapist screams at them and encourages the child’s parents to express their hatred and disgust for the child. There have been some reports of parents being encouraged to hit, slap or kick the child. This will continue until the child admits that they are hurting their family and that they hate themselves for being gay.
Ref: Bright, C. "Deconstructing Reparative Therapy: An Examination of the Processes Involved When Attempting to Change Sexual Orientation. 2014
 
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SilverBear

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Actually the word used in the verse in Corinthians is
arsenokoitai
meaning man bed or men being with men in a sexual fashion. In this passage Paul is referring to the prohibition of men lying with men prohibited in the OT. It's a reaffirmation of the sin of homosexuality. Paul's teaching on this subject is affirmed from and in Romans 1.
completely without evidence. This is based on pretending that compound words mean what their root words combine to mean but a butterfly doesn't mean levitating dairy products. Can you understand the distinction? Realize you don't have to be standing under something to understand it

using this sort of logic it is equally legitimate to claim that Paul was condeming the lazy- men who linger in bed


The word in a combination word with koitia meaning of coitus.
coitus comes from Latin not Greek.
Latin coitus "a meeting together; sexual union," past participle of coire "to come together, meet," from assimilated form of com "together" (see co-) + ire (past participle itus) "to come, to go," (from PIE root *ei- "to go").

in Greek koitai is the word for “mat”
 
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rjs330

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There are a some scholars who are less than convinced that the translation of this word as attested in the RSV, and would suggest that the subject was more about the abuse of sexual power as might be understood in paedophilia. It would certainly seem that your exegesis lets lesbians off the hook completely.

Please note I am not making the argument, but rather acknowledging that there is an argument. I do think that it is a difficult word to translate.

From a New Testament perspective this is a largely Pauline teaching. The canonical gospels seem to have no direct teaching from Jesus on the subject, but rather the positive affirmation of the ideal of marital fidelity. arsenokoitai is not a word that the NT ascribes to Jesus, and as far as we know he never used the word. Jesus did however affirm the preciousness of children and spoke of them as a model for the simplicity of faith.

I do not want to discount Paul, however I do want the words and pattern of ministry of Jesus to ring louder.

Most scholars attend to the definition I have spoken to. I have a degree in Biblical literature which includes Greek.

When one reads Romans 1 it is clear what Paul teaches about hosexuality. It is no stretch to see that he is referring to that in I Cor 6. The word used here is the first time it is used. So it is a very specific word and most scholars note that it is a reference to the Septuagint and the levitical writings against homosexuality. The word is unique to the situation of men being with men in a sexual fashion.

Most translations anymore refer to homosexuality because that is our ENGLISH word for male on male sex which is the reference here. It has nothing to do with the abuse of sexual power.

When you look at the word and it's usage in ancient greece it is primarily a word that refers to male sexual partners. And it isn't just restricted to homosexuals. It's like I originally said, even though we use the word homosexual in this verse, it's not so narrowly defined as that in the original usages of the word. Homosexual sex is only one part of this particular word. It would apply to all male on male sex. Thus it would apply to bi-sexual males, man on boy sex and even to heterosexual males who decided to experiment one night.

No Jesus didn't use this word in his teachings. At least in the ones we have. We obviously don't have everything Jesus taught. There are things taught by the apostles that Jesus didn't mention. However, they have the authority of God and Christ. And none of them write things in contradiction to what Christ did teach.

And yes this passage does not mention lesbians. But they are not left off the hook because of Romans 1.

Those that practice these things will not inheret the kingdom of God. These are practices forbidden in the church body.

Non believers can feel free to practice these things because they are in sin all the time. So even if you are not a homosexual you are not any less or more lost than if you are. Homosexual unbelievers are no worse than heterosexual unbelievers.
 
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rjs330

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completely without evidence. This is based on pretending that compound words mean what their root words combine to mean but a butterfly doesn't mean levitating dairy products. Can you understand the distinction? Realize you don't have to be standing under something to understand it

using this sort of logic it is equally legitimate to claim that Paul was condeming the lazy- men who linger in bed


coitus comes from Latin not Greek.
Latin coitus "a meeting together; sexual union," past participle of coire "to come together, meet," from assimilated form of com "together" (see co-) + ire (past participle itus) "to come, to go," (from PIE root *ei- "to go").

in Greek koitai is the word for “mat”

See post 369.
 
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rjs330

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completely without evidence. This is based on pretending that compound words mean what their root words combine to mean but a butterfly doesn't mean levitating dairy products. Can you understand the distinction? Realize you don't have to be standing under something to understand it

using this sort of logic it is equally legitimate to claim that Paul was condeming the lazy- men who linger in bed


coitus comes from Latin not Greek.
Latin coitus "a meeting together; sexual union," past participle of coire "to come together, meet," from assimilated form of com "together" (see co-) + ire (past participle itus) "to come, to go," (from PIE root *ei- "to go").

in Greek koitai is the word for “mat”

I have a degree in Biblical literature including the ancient Greek language. So I understand perfectly about how the ancient greek words work. You are barking up the wrong tree here. But I don't suppose that will make any difference to you.

This passage is a reference to the septuagint levitical writings on homosexuality.

But as you are not a believer I don't expect you to believe or understand. Thus, I will not engage in any further spiritual debate with you. I have clearly explained the meaning of scripture and the greek usage of the words involved.

You may believe what you will.

Review Romans 1.
 
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rjs330

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If I may draw an analogy, this sort of change could be described as trying to re-arrange your brain. Now, think of another part of your body; say we decided to surgically re-arrange your hand. You might desire it, but there's no way we could do it without violence to the existing structures of bone and muscle and significant - even extreme - pain. While that's only an analogy, something similar would be true for your brain.

But even worse, in the case of conversion therapy, people would be attempting that re-arranging despite having no effective method to do so! They'd be causing all that pain and damage, while not achieving the promised outcome.



I really suggest you do some reading, then.



Even "very low key" therapy can be traumatic. One doesn't have to be violent or assaulting someone to do them significant harm. Words have power; and power to hurt.

Okay, then in your estimation simply telling a believer they cannot engage in homosexual sex is enough? You would tell them they are a homosexual, but they may not engage in homosexual sex. Is that correct?
 
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Paidiske

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Okay, then in your estimation simply telling a believer they cannot engage in homosexual sex is enough? You would tell them they are a homosexual, but they may not engage in homosexual sex. Is that correct?

I have not ever found that anyone needed or wanted me to tell them that they are a homosexual. But I have seen the enormous relief for people who have, for years, struggled with all their might to change something they couldn't, being told that God's grace towards them is not dependent on their doing so.
 
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SilverBear

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There are people who claim differently.

do any of them say they are heterexual? um...no they don't

Side note: Luiz RUiz, the second speaker accidentally admitted in a may 3, 2018 interview with
Mat Staver of the Liberty council that he is and always has been gay. oops

Kevin Witt the third speaker claims to have been a transsexual and a sex worker. He claims he lived as a trans gendered woman for 20 years until he was "saved" five years ago. Kevin 35 so that means he was living as a trans-gendered woman since he was 10 years old. He also claims that as a sex worker he has had sex with over 50,000 sexual partners. His autobiography titled: “God Saved the Queen.” tells that he started working as a prostitute after college and I have to assume he stopped when he was "saved" so that means that he had 18 sexual partners a day, every day, weekends and holidays included. Gonna call bull on that.

Elizabeth Woning has made a multi million dollar career out of curing people, not just homosexuals but she also claims she can sure blindness and cancer

Edward Byrd, from Washington, DC, claims to be a licence counselor and claims to run Red Hause, LLC which has no business license and no corporate record in DC. It also doesn't seem to have a web presence. Mr. Byrd does not seem to have any degree.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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of course there is and it's well documented

Electrodes may be placed on the client’s genitals in order to provide painful shocks when the client is exposed to gay themed images.
Ref: Shidlo, A.; Schroeder, M.; Drescher, J. eds. Sexual conversion therapy: ethical, clinical, and research perspectives 2011

“Hold therapy” is almost exclusively done with children. The child is physically restrained while the therapist screams at them and encourages the child’s parents to express their hatred and disgust for the child. There have been some reports of parents being encouraged to hit, slap or kick the child. This will continue until the child admits that they are hurting their family and that they hate themselves for being gay.
Ref: Bright, C. "Deconstructing Reparative Therapy: An Examination of the Processes Involved When Attempting to Change Sexual Orientation. 2014

As for your quotes, the first was from an event that happened on March 29, 1979 (Page 77 of Sexual conversion therapy: ethical, clinical, and research perspectives). It has nothing to do with what conversion therapy is currently in Australia. Even secular Mental Health practices in the early years were quite brutal.

As we see here it was a common treatment in the 1960's as seen in this medical journal.
151.extract.jpg


This does not make the practice "right", it just goes to show what medical practices were at the time.

As for the second reference, I will look it up later, as I have time. But I would suggest as with the other reference they are some historical form of treatment no longer visited.
 
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SilverBear

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Most scholars attend to the definition I have spoken to. I have a degree in Biblical literature which includes Greek.

When one reads Romans 1 it is clear what Paul teaches about hosexuality. It is no stretch to see that he is referring to that in I Cor 6. The word used here is the first time it is used. So it is a very specific word and most scholars note that it is a reference to the Septuagint and the levitical writings against homosexuality. The word is unique to the situation of men being with men in a sexual fashion.
the big problem with using the Septuagint here is that the words arsen and koite ALSO appear together in four other places in that work but none of them are connected to homosexuality or sex of any kind.
 
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Philip_B

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I have a degree in Biblical literature which includes Greek.
Nice. Others in this debate may do as well. I know at least two others do, and reading the thread I think more than that probably do. Your need to assert it seems a claim to give your words greater authority than others.

Homosexual unbelievers are no worse than heterosexual unbelievers.
I accept that statement as it is. However as you and I both know that is not what is in question. I made a statement earlier that you could turn the whole world straight and added win a single soul to the Kingdom. The view that Straight people are somehow better than Gay people is something I do struggle with. We, and that means not only all of us, it also means each one of us, have been made in the image and after the likeness of God. Surely we are more effective witnesses to the Light that is coming into the world when we help people catch a glimpse of that image in themselves, rather than decrying them out loud for what we find deficient. We are called to be ambassadors for Christ; I do not read that we are called to God's Bouncers.
 
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kiwimac

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Most scholars attend to the definition I have spoken to. I have a degree in Biblical literature which includes Greek.

When one reads Romans 1 it is clear what Paul teaches about hosexuality. It is no stretch to see that he is referring to that in I Cor 6. The word used here is the first time it is used. So it is a very specific word and most scholars note that it is a reference to the Septuagint and the levitical writings against homosexuality. The word is unique to the situation of men being with men in a sexual fashion.

Most translations anymore refer to homosexuality because that is our ENGLISH word for male on male sex which is the reference here. It has nothing to do with the abuse of sexual power.

When you look at the word and it's usage in ancient greece it is primarily a word that refers to male sexual partners. And it isn't just restricted to homosexuals. It's like I originally said, even though we use the word homosexual in this verse, it's not so narrowly defined as that in the original usages of the word. Homosexual sex is only one part of this particular word. It would apply to all male on male sex. Thus it would apply to bi-sexual males, man on boy sex and even to heterosexual males who decided to experiment one night.

No Jesus didn't use this word in his teachings. At least in the ones we have. We obviously don't have everything Jesus taught. There are things taught by the apostles that Jesus didn't mention. However, they have the authority of God and Christ. And none of them write things in contradiction to what Christ did teach.

And yes this passage does not mention lesbians. But they are not left off the hook because of Romans 1.

Those that practice these things will not inheret the kingdom of God. These are practices forbidden in the church body.

Non believers can feel free to practice these things because they are in sin all the time. So even if you are not a homosexual you are not any less or more lost than if you are. Homosexual unbelievers are no worse than heterosexual unbelievers.

I don't look to the Bible for knowledge of physics, chemistry or astronomy, why? Because the Bible is not a science text. It is not going to tell you that E=Mc2 nor that water is H20 nor yet that UY Scuti is the largest known star. Just as those bits are not in the Bible nor is any knowledge that homosexuality occurs in almost all higher species.

Paul in writing Romans 1 is seemingly motivated by the belief that same-sex attraction is caused by lust. He appears to believe, as did a number of folk in his time that folk “exchange” opposite-sex for same-sex relations because they are driven by an out-of-control desire, not simply because they have a different, entirely natural sexual orientation. And while Paul labels same-sex behavior “unnatural,” he also uses the same word to criticize long hair in men in 1 Corinthians 11:14.
 
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rjs330

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I have not ever found that anyone needed or wanted me to tell them that they are a homosexual. But I have seen the enormous relief for people who have, for years, struggled with all their might to change something they couldn't, being told that God's grace towards them is not dependent on their doing so.

Okay, I can understand that. But what do you tell them about having sexual relations with the same sex?
 
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rjs330

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do any of them say they are heterexual? um...no they don't

Side note: Luiz RUiz, the second speaker accidentally admitted in a may 3, 2018 interview with
Mat Staver of the Liberty council that he is and always has been gay. oops

Kevin Witt the third speaker claims to have been a transsexual and a sex worker. He claims he lived as a trans gendered woman for 20 years until he was "saved" five years ago. Kevin 35 so that means he was living as a trans-gendered woman since he was 10 years old. He also claims that as a sex worker he has had sex with over 50,000 sexual partners. His autobiography titled: “God Saved the Queen.” tells that he started working as a prostitute after college and I have to assume he stopped when he was "saved" so that means that he had 18 sexual partners a day, every day, weekends and holidays included. Gonna call bull on that.

Elizabeth Woning has made a multi million dollar career out of curing people, not just homosexuals but she also claims she can sure blindness and cancer

Edward Byrd, from Washington, DC, claims to be a licence counselor and claims to run Red Hause, LLC which has no business license and no corporate record in DC. It also doesn't seem to have a web presence. Mr. Byrd does not seem to have any degree.

Okay you don't believe them. I don't know if you can, but I would suggest attempting to contact them and speak with them personally about their experiences.

Jackie Hill Perry has an amazing story.

Jesus is the answer for everything. In the area of gayness and trusting in Jesus its all about trust. Believers rarely are ever just set free from all bondage or personal struggles in their lives. The stories of gay people who have come to trust in Jesus are varied. They are not all the same. Some are so filled with God they immediately give their lives to him and recognize their attraction is sin but become so attracted to Christ their sinful attraction just isn't appealing anymore and they choose a celibate life. Because Jesus is so much more.

Others have their lives so changed that the strong attraction for the same sex becomes less over time and they find someone of the opposite sex they really like as a person and that developed into loving them as a person of the opposite sex so much they want to with them. It's a gradual change as God works in them.

All of this is to say Jesus is all that matters. And once we decide to just lay it all on the table a trust in the only person that is worthy of our trust he will work all the rest of it out if we just choose to believe and let him.

Not being gay I can't say if the feelings or attraction would ever disappear completely for all gays who choose to believe. We all wrestle with our own issues. Some it's lying, some it's list, some it's other worldly pleasures. But with Jesus we can gain the power to overcome the sinful desires of our heart because we love him more than those other things.

But it all starts with Jesus. He said it himself when he said "I am the truth and the life." He will reveal truth and life. If we commit and stay committed to him. It starts with the step if faith and once we commit he works all that other stuff out. We don't and can't in our own power. He has to do it inside of us and we walk out what he has done.
 
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