Why Revelation 17:8 is in two parts

Douggg · Jan 20, 2021

Revelation 17:8 is in two parts, and two persons.

Part "a" refers to someone who was in the bottomless pit at the time of John.

Part "b" refers to the end times person who becomes the beast.

The seven heads are seven kings in Revelation 17:10. King seven is future of John's time.

In Revelation 17:11, the beast - "who was, and is not, and even he is" will be the eighth king.

But since there are only 7 heads, he must be king seven - who will be mortally wounded, but is healed, i.e. comes back to life...as king 8, called the beast.

Okay, to our verse 17:8. 17:8b in color. And is the end times person.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (see Revelation 17:11 above)

That leaves 17:8a. Which applies to a person who was in the bottomless pit already back in the day of John. Which I believe refers to the original serpent beast in the garden used by Satan. Currently a disembodied spirit, in the bottomless pit. Who will come out and possess the end times person.

Dave L · Jan 20, 2021

Douggg said:
Revelation 17:8 is in two parts, and two persons.

Part "a" refers to someone who was in the bottomless pit at the time of John.

Part "b" refers to the end times person who becomes the beast.

The seven heads are seven kings in Revelation 17:10. King seven is future of John's time.

In Revelation 17:11, the beast - "who was, and is not, and even he is" will be the eighth king.

But since there are only 7 heads, he must be king seven - who will be mortally wounded, but is healed, i.e. comes back to life...as king 8, called the beast.

Okay, to our verse 17:8. 17:8b in color. And is the end times person.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (see Revelation 17:11 above)

That leaves 17:8a. Which applies to a person who was in the bottomless pit already back in the day of John. Which I believe refers to the original serpent beast in the garden used by Satan. Currently a disembodied spirit, in the bottomless pit. Who will come out and possess the end times person.

I stick close to early Protestanism until proven wrong. And I think the Geneva Bible notes give a better answer.

Verse 8
i. This is the Romaine empire which being fallen into decay, the harlot of Rome usurped autoritie, and proceded from the devil and thether shal returne.

Geneva Bible: Notes. (1560). (Vol. 2, p. 120). Geneva: Rovland Hall.

keras · Jan 20, 2021

Dave L said:
I stick close to early Protestanism until proven wrong. And I think the Geneva Bible notes give a better answer.

Verse 8
i. This is the Romaine empire which being fallen into decay, the harlot of Rome usurped autoritie, and proceded from the devil and thether shal returne.

Geneva Bible: Notes. (1560). (Vol. 2, p. 120). Geneva: Rovland Hall.

The belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the 'harlot' of Rev 17, is correct.
But there will be one man who will lead a world Government, as Daniel 7:23-26 and Revelation 13:1-8 describe.
And he will destroy the RCC. Revelation 17:16-17

Douggg · Jan 20, 2021

keras said:
And he will destroy the RCC. Revelation 17:16-17

Well, in essence. Revelation 17:16 indicates the ten kings are the ones who will be the harlot with fire.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Douggg · Jan 20, 2021

Dave L said:
I stick close to early Protestanism until proven wrong. And I think the Geneva Bible notes give a better answer.

Verse 8
i. This is the Romaine empire which being fallen into decay, the harlot of Rome usurped autoritie, and proceded from the devil and thether shal returne.

Geneva Bible: Notes. (1560). (Vol. 2, p. 120). Geneva: Rovland Hall.

Dave, the Roman empire is not a king. The beast who was,and is not, even he is - will be king 8.

There have been a multitude of commentators who take liberties to rationalize "kings" in Revelation 17:10 as being kingdoms - thus changing up the text and the meaning of the text.

d taylor · Jan 20, 2021

Douggg said:
Revelation 17:8 is in two parts, and two persons.

Part "a" refers to someone who was in the bottomless pit at the time of John.

Part "b" refers to the end times person who becomes the beast.

The seven heads are seven kings in Revelation 17:10. King seven is future of John's time.

In Revelation 17:11, the beast - "who was, and is not, and even he is" will be the eighth king.

But since there are only 7 heads, he must be king seven - who will be mortally wounded, but is healed, i.e. comes back to life...as king 8, called the beast.

Okay, to our verse 17:8. 17:8b in color. And is the end times person.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (see Revelation 17:11 above)

That leaves 17:8a. Which applies to a person who was in the bottomless pit already back in the day of John. Which I believe refers to the original serpent beast in the garden used by Satan. Currently a disembodied spirit, in the bottomless pit. Who will come out and possess the end times person.

The king of the North, The little Horn of Daniel 7 (Daniel 11:36-45 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). Becomes the Beast (out of the sea) when after he receives a deadly blow. He is brought back to life (a satanic healing) and is now possessed by a long departed Roman emperor.

In tthe deliberately cjopsen sequence of seven, the beast would count as an eight (17:11). But he was not simply an additional King. Instead he was one of the seven (17:11) and not only that, he was one of the five who had already fallen. the beats "was and is not" This is confirmed by verse 8

Marilyn C · Jan 20, 2021

Douggg said:
Revelation 17:8 is in two parts, and two persons.

Part "a" refers to someone who was in the bottomless pit at the time of John.

Part "b" refers to the end times person who becomes the beast.

Hi Douggg,

I believe that Rev. 17: 8 refers to Satan. Remember that John was shown a vision of the future. It was NOT in his time.

Douggg · Jan 20, 2021

Marilyn C said:
Hi Douggg,

I believe that Rev. 17: 8 refers to Satan. Remember that John was shown a vision of the future. It was NOT in his time.

Hi Marilyn, I view the scarlet colored beast as Satan.

Then in verse 7, the angel says an interesting thing...

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The mystery of (1) the woman and (2) of the beast that carrieth her.

The mystery of the beast, i.e. the mystery of Satan.

Since Satan has not been in the bottomless pit - yet, the beast in Revelation 17:8a is not Satan himself.
Nor is the beast in Revelation 17:8b. Was, is not....Was, is not, yet is....are not terms that apply to Satan himself because "was, is not" imply death at some point.

But because of their affiliation to Satan, the mystery is - who are they?

In Revelation 17:8b, that one is fairly straight forward because in Revelation 13 one of the heads (one of the kings) is mortally wounded but healed, and is called the beast in Revelation 13. And Satan gives the beast his power, verse 4.

In Revelation 17:8a, that one is more challenging. Humans are generally thought of as not relegated to the bottomless pit when they die. The bottomless pit is a place for demons, fallen angels, and non humans - such as the locust creatures in Revelation 9.

imo, the person who was and is not, and currently in the bottomless pit, also called a beast when he was alive is the original serpent used by Satan to get Adam and Eve to sin and incur death into the human race.

Marilyn C · Jan 20, 2021

Douggg said:
Hi Marilyn, I view the scarlet colored beast as Satan.

Then in verse 7, the angel says an interesting thing...

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

The mystery of (1) the woman and (2) of the beast that carrieth her.

The mystery of the beast, i.e. the mystery of Satan.

Since Satan has not been in the bottomless pit - yet, the beast in Revelation 17:8a is not Satan himself.
Nor is the beast in Revelation 17:8b. Was, is not....Was, is not, yet is....are not terms that apply to Satan himself because "was, is not" imply death at some point.
.

Hi Douggg,

I see what you are saying. However I see that Satan is described as, - `was, is not, yet is...` being the counterfeit of the Lord `who is & who was & who is to come.` (Rev. 1: 8)

Valletta · Jan 21, 2021

keras said:
The belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the 'harlot' of Rev 17, is correct.
But there will be one man who will lead a world Government, as Daniel 7:23-26 and Revelation 13:1-8 describe.
And he will destroy the RCC. Revelation 17:16-17

Did you know that the only reason you have the Bible is that the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s. No Catholic Church--no Bible. My brother in Christ, how easy it is to demonize those who disagree with you, don't you think? Personally I believe Jerusalem is a good fit.

Dave L · Jan 21, 2021

Valletta said:
Did you know that the only reason you have the Bible is that the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s. No Catholic Church--no Bible. My brother in Christ, how easy it is to demonize those who disagree with you, don't you think? Personally I believe Jerusalem is a good fit.

They had the scriptures in the first century. Besides, the Protestants use 66 books that harmonize. The rest don't

Christ777 · Jan 21, 2021

Quote: "The belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the 'harlot' of Rev 17, is correct".

Scripture disagrees with this popular belief (tradition).

Scripture tells us WHAT the "harlot" is:

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

It is not the Catholic church, for the Catholic Church is not a city and did not exist at the time of this revelation of Christ for the END TIMES.

Just as GOD has a city *(The New Jerusalem, heavenly, full of truth and holiness), so does SATAN have his city *(Babylon, which means "confusion" in Hebrew). She is the great "harlot" that commits SPIRITUAL ADULTERY with a FALSE GOD *(Satan).

Christ777

Dave L · Jan 21, 2021

Christ777 said:
Quote: "The belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the 'harlot' of Rev 17, is correct".

Scripture tells us WHAT the "harlot" is:

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

It is not the Catholic church, for the Catholic Church is not a city and did not exist at the time of this revelation of Christ for the END TIMES.

Christ777

Vatican City? Did the end of the world exist at the time of John's writing? Ever hear of prophecy?

Christ777 · Jan 21, 2021

Dave L said:
Vatican City? Did the end of the world exist at the time of John's writing? Ever hear of prophecy?

John was taken in spirit to THE LORD'S DAY *(The time of the Second Coming) to see a revelation of things that must happen before, during, and after the Lord's Day:

Rev 1:10

(ALT) I came to be in spirit [or, in [the] Spirit] on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, like a trumpet-blast,

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

John was taken to the Second Coming, which starts THE DAY OF THE LORD which will last 1,000 years **(The Millennium, 2 Peter 3:8).

This is why Christ said:

Joh 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

This revelation from The Holy Spirit, is KEY to understanding the Book of Revelation correctly.

Christ777

Dave L · Jan 21, 2021

Christ777 said:
John was taken in spirit to THE LORD'S DAY *(The time of the Second Coming) to see a revelation of things that must happen before, during, and after the Lord's Day:

Rev 1:10

(ALT) I came to be in spirit [or, in [the] Spirit] on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice, like a trumpet-blast,

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

John was taken to the Second Coming, which starts THE DAY OF THE LORD which will last 1,000 years **(The Millennium, 2 Peter 3:8).

This is why Christ said:

Joh 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

This revelation from The Holy Spirit, is KEY to understanding the Book of Revelation correctly.

Christ777

The Millennium is a Pharisee doctrine. Christ proved it wrong saying only the born-again can see his kingdom.

Valletta · Jan 21, 2021

Dave L said:
They had the scriptures in the first century. Besides, the Protestants use 66 books that harmonize. The rest don't

Nonsense, find an old Bible and read the books for yourself. All 73 books are contained within the binders of old KJV Bibles.

Dave L · Jan 21, 2021

Valletta said:
Nonsense, find an old Bible and read the books for yourself. All 73 books are contained within the binders of old KJV Bibles.

Not for long.

keras · Jan 21, 2021

Valletta said:
Did you know that the only reason you have the Bible is that the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible and gave the world the Bible in the late 300s. No Catholic Church--no Bible. My brother in Christ, how easy it is to demonize those who disagree with you, don't you think? Personally I believe Jerusalem is a good fit.

It isn't the faithful individuals; Catholic or of any denomination, who are referred to. It is the system, the errors of doctrines and the false traditions that will be destroyed.

Valletta said:
Nonsense, find an old Bible and read the books for yourself. All 73 books are contained within the binders of old KJV Bibles.

My Revised English Bible has the Apocrypha in it.
There is much of historical and prophetic value there.

Valletta · Jan 21, 2021

keras said:
It isn't the faithful individuals; Catholic or of any denomination, who are referred to. It is the system, the errors of doctrines and the false traditions that will be destroyed.

My Revised English Bible has the Apocrypha in it.
There is much of historical and prophetic value there.

The city referred to obviously is not Vatican City. First, as was said, Vatican City was not there at the time. Second, while ancient Rome has seven hills within, Vatican City is outside of the ancient walls of Rome, you have to cross the olds walls and the Tiber River to get there. You should go there some day, at St. Peter's Basilica, under the altar, below the level where the more recent popes are buried is the location where St. Peter was buried. But from all I know, while many scholars believe it is pagan Rome, I feel that Jerusalem is the best fit.

Christ777 · Jan 21, 2021

The city is Babylon, Confusion.

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

It's part of this "mystery", Satan's spiritual wickedness:

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The Millennium is Christ's kingdom on earth and begins at his second coming. Rev 20:4

Satan will be bound in the Abyss during the Millennium age and unable to deceive the nations:

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Christ777

Why Revelation 17:8 is in two parts

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Pre-tribulation.

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Pre-tribulation.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Member

Similar threads