Why do many Christians not understand this?

Mark Quayle said:

I understand that. What I'm trying to understand is how it applies to the subject discussed. Are you saying that therefore, 'partial works' salvation is Biblical, since 'works alone salvation' is not? I thought the discussion had come around to, in effect at this point, monergism vs synergism.

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He also does not understand that...

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).


#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).


#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).


#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).


#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).


#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).

#30. “For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.” (Galatians 6:8-9).

Mark Quayle said:

I understand that. What I'm trying to understand is how it applies to the subject discussed. Are you saying that therefore, 'partial works' salvation is Biblical, since 'works alone salvation' is not? I thought the discussion had come around to, in effect at this point, monergism vs synergism.

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He also does not understand that he is taking Isaiah 64:6 out of context, as well.


Verse 5 talks about how God meets the person who rejoices in working righteousness.
Verse 6 talks about man directed works or traditions of men and their sin, and it is not referring to the work of faith and or the work of God done through the believer.

Mark Quayle said:

While salvific faith is of the same definition as 'regular' faith, it is still in its own category, being of a different source from any other. It no less involves the intellect and experience than the other, but the 'substance' (for lack of a better word) of it is the substance of the Holy Spirit. It might not even be incorrect to say it IS the Holy Spirit within one, it is that much by HIM.

Here, to my thinking, anyway, we see the logical link to the notion that without him we are not even complete individuals. I like to say we will not be until we are in Heaven and see him as he is. However, even now, we are made alive and real IN HIM --not of ourselves.

The Spirit of God in us is what makes this faith real, as it does all other virtues. So many things jump out at me as obvious --that not only our understanding of the Gospel is too ignorant to do a worthy job of it, but the same applies concerning our faithfulness, our integrity, our focus and purpose. All these are made pure and strong in kind by the fact they are not ours, but his. The same applies to all virtue we find after regeneration. Our repentance after regeneration is made real by GOD, not by us, and so BY HIM we are driven to make repentance real, to be steadfast, to live by faith.

Therefor, the amount, or size, of salvific faith, while I don't want to say it is irrelevant, is not the determining factor in our salvation. It is God in us that makes it real.

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Look at what is happening in the world right now. It appears that those whom have been given a little are losing even that. Christ completely protects His own.

BNR32FAN said:

I see God’s grace giving us the ability to have faith not necessarily compelling us to have faith. Otherwise people could not fall from grace and fail to abide in Christ.

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I’m not sure that anyone who is sealed can ever fall from Grace. If you begin to fall from The Way, you get plumbed up in an not very pleasant way. This is well described in Hebrews.

Heb.10

1. 
   
   [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

lsume said:

I’m not sure that anyone who is sealed can ever fall from Grace. If you begin to fall from The Way, you get plumbed up in an not very pleasant way. This is well described in Hebrews.

Heb.10

1. 
   
   [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

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We are told:



We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

In fact, Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

So we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word and not just those verses we prefer to hear because they sound more comforting to us.

Neostarwcc said:

Why do many Christians not understand that it is by God's grace that we are saved through our faith? Why do they understand that our faith is not of our own doing but that it is a gift of God? Not by our works because our works are as righteous as filthy rags?

Why do they not understand that to accept this teaching does not make them robots nor does it nullify God's grace but instead enhances it a billion times fold? Why do they not understand that it is God that needs all the glory, not mankind because without God, we are nothing.

Why do people not understand that without God's sovereignty we are nothing? Or that there is not a single thing that happens that goes outside of God's sovereign will and God is sovereign over all?

Sound familiar? It should and not a single word I said did I make up on my own but was Holy Scripture. Because I just quoted one of the most popular pieces of scripture that Paul wrote and mentioned several sections of the Bible including what the Prophet Isaiah prophesied all those years ago. Because, Christians the world over love to quote these verses to say that we aren't saved by our works (which is true) but, they also ignore the rest of what Paul and the prophets wrote. Let me explain and highlight Ephesians 2:8-9 for people.


Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Yes, it is your faith that saves you. There's no twisting or disagreement here. But your faith does not come from you, it comes from the grace and mercy of God. This faith is more precious than gold, because it comes from God. This faith will never waver and will never go away, because it comes from and is kept by God.

Don't believe me? Read what Paul, Peter, Jesus, and the writer of Hebrews said about our faith and about our salvation. Study it and take its meaning to heart because, everything I said is all there. Especially the Apostle Peter who said that we are a chosen possession and God's forever. Born of not corruptible seed, but incorruptible.

Yet, it's a frequent belief in Christianty that Eternal Security is a doctrine of the devil. Why? Because the Apostles talked about it and they're of the devil? That's essentially what they're saying. Its commonly taught that the basic idea of the reformed theology is from the Devil as well. Why? Because Paul is of the devil? Be careful what you're saying here. I didn't write these things, the Apostles and Prophets did. The apostle Paul may have had a shady past but Christ said he was chosen by God and everything that comes from his mouth is true, even Peter said so. I'll say it again. We are saved by Grace through faith. This faith is not of ourselves but is a gift from God and that faith will last now and forever. Amen!

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You speak of a lack of understanding.

However, Paul says this about a lack of understanding.


What words of Jesus are many Christians not consenting or agreeing with today? Oh, verses like Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28, etc.; For when I am point them to these verses, they do not believe them in what they plainly say. What “doctrine of godliness” are Christians not accepting today? To live a holy life by the Sanctification Process. Most Christians believe that we will always stumble into grievous sin or sin that the Bible attaches with warnings of condemnation or hellfire. Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Note: For the purpose of discussion within this thread, this would be putting away grievous sin or mortal sin). For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12). For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (See: Hebrews 12:14).

Bible Highlighter said:

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).​

We are told to:

1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
   
   
2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

In fact, Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

So we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word and not just those verses we prefer to hear because they sound more comforting to us.

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Yes and the only way to obey the edict is by being Truly born again.

There are genuine Christians and there are “nominal” Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers mixed together in various churches and on various Christian forum sites.

lsume said:

Yes and the only way to obey the edict is by being Truly born again.

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No argument against being born again, but the point here is that the verses I had shown you proves that we need to continue to do our part as a part of God's plan of salvation. We need to keep ourselves in the love of God.

Neostarwcc said:

Why do many Christians not understand that it is by God's grace that we are saved through our faith? Why do they understand that our faith is not of our own doing but that it is a gift of God? Not by our works because our works are as righteous as filthy rags?

Why do they not understand that to accept this teaching does not make them robots nor does it nullify God's grace but instead enhances it a billion times fold? Why do they not understand that it is God that needs all the glory, not mankind because without God, we are nothing.

Why do people not understand that without God's sovereignty we are nothing? Or that there is not a single thing that happens that goes outside of God's sovereign will and God is sovereign over all?

Sound familiar? It should and not a single word I said did I make up on my own but was Holy Scripture. Because I just quoted one of the most popular pieces of scripture that Paul wrote and mentioned several sections of the Bible including what the Prophet Isaiah prophesied all those years ago. Because, Christians the world over love to quote these verses to say that we aren't saved by our works (which is true) but, they also ignore the rest of what Paul and the prophets wrote. Let me explain and highlight Ephesians 2:8-9 for people.


Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Yes, it is your faith that saves you. There's no twisting or disagreement here. But your faith does not come from you, it comes from the grace and mercy of God. This faith is more precious than gold, because it comes from God. This faith will never waver and will never go away, because it comes from and is kept by God.

Don't believe me? Read what Paul, Peter, Jesus, and the writer of Hebrews said about our faith and about our salvation. Study it and take its meaning to heart because, everything I said is all there. Especially the Apostle Peter who said that we are a chosen possession and God's forever. Born of not corruptible seed, but incorruptible.

Yet, it's a frequent belief in Christianty that Eternal Security is a doctrine of the devil. Why? Because the Apostles talked about it and they're of the devil? That's essentially what they're saying. Its commonly taught that the basic idea of the reformed theology is from the Devil as well. Why? Because Paul is of the devil? Be careful what you're saying here. I didn't write these things, the Apostles and Prophets did. The apostle Paul may have had a shady past but Christ said he was chosen by God and everything that comes from his mouth is true, even Peter said so. I'll say it again. We are saved by Grace through faith. This faith is not of ourselves but is a gift from God and that faith will last now and forever. Amen!

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Well I did not read all the replies so I hope I am not too repetitious.

The answer is simple. Human pride. Our own pride is insidious, deceptive, subtle and dangerous. Human pride cannot stand the fact that we can do nothing of ourself to be saved or stay saved! That it is all of God and nothing of ourselves. Man in his fallen state and fallen nature craves to have control. Pride demands that it is responsible for the good things we achieve through grace.

Some never can rid themselves of this subtle monster of our self and have created the bad doctrines of

Losing you salvation
Man cooperates with God in getting saved.
We get to choose though the Word says we are elect!
We are responsible for "maintaining our salvation".

However once we allow the word to unshackle us from these hideous doctrines borne in our souls, we can learn toi walk the glorious path God has made for us!

lsume said:

I’m not sure that anyone who is sealed can ever fall from Grace. If you begin to fall from The Way, you get plumbed up in an not very pleasant way. This is well described in Hebrews.

Heb.10

1. 
   
   [26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Click to expand...

I believe Paul was explaining this very situation in Ephesians 4 & 5.

“So I say this, and affirm in the Lord, that you are to no longer walk just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their minds, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves up to indecent behavior for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former way of life, you are to rid yourselves of the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you are to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Therefore, ridding yourselves of falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE OF YOU WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, because we are parts of one another. B E ANGRY, AND YET DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. The one who steals must no longer steal; but rather he must labor, producing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with the one who has need. Let no unwholesome word come out of your mouth, but if there is any good word for edification according to the need of the moment, say that, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. All bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and slander must be removed from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:17-32‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But sexual immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness or foolish talk, or vulgar joking, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no sexually immoral or impure or greedy person, which amounts to an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. See that no one deceives you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them; for you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), as you try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Do not participate in the useless deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. For this reason it says, “Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you.” So then, be careful how you walk, not as unwise people but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your hearts to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to our God and Father; and subject yourselves to one another in the fear of Christ.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-21‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Notice Paul is addressing the saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ and whom are sealed with the Holy Spirit into the day of redemption. These saints are still very capable of becoming “sons of disobedience” whom which will not have an inheritance in the kingdom of God and whom will receive God’s wrath.

Paul gives a similar message in Romans 2.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL REPAY EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Even despite “God’s kindness and patience that is leading them to repentance” (God’s grace) they are building up the wrath of God upon themselves by their unrepentant heart.

Here’s another indication in Luke 13.

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Look! For three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, leave it alone for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Notice that even despite Jesus’ efforts to fertilize the tree the outcome is still uncertain whether or not the tree will bear fruit or if it will not bear fruit and be chopped down.

Neostarwcc said:

Why do many Christians not understand that it is by God's grace that we are saved through our faith? Why do they understand that our faith is not of our own doing but that it is a gift of God? Not by our works because our works are as righteous as filthy rags?

Why do they not understand that to accept this teaching does not make them robots nor does it nullify God's grace but instead enhances it a billion times fold? Why do they not understand that it is God that needs all the glory, not mankind because without God, we are nothing.

Why do people not understand that without God's sovereignty we are nothing? Or that there is not a single thing that happens that goes outside of God's sovereign will and God is sovereign over all?

Sound familiar? It should and not a single word I said did I make up on my own but was Holy Scripture. Because I just quoted one of the most popular pieces of scripture that Paul wrote and mentioned several sections of the Bible including what the Prophet Isaiah prophesied all those years ago. Because, Christians the world over love to quote these verses to say that we aren't saved by our works (which is true) but, they also ignore the rest of what Paul and the prophets wrote. Let me explain and highlight Ephesians 2:8-9 for people.


Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Yes, it is your faith that saves you. There's no twisting or disagreement here. But your faith does not come from you, it comes from the grace and mercy of God. This faith is more precious than gold, because it comes from God. This faith will never waver and will never go away, because it comes from and is kept by God.

Don't believe me? Read what Paul, Peter, Jesus, and the writer of Hebrews said about our faith and about our salvation. Study it and take its meaning to heart because, everything I said is all there. Especially the Apostle Peter who said that we are a chosen possession and God's forever. Born of not corruptible seed, but incorruptible.

Yet, it's a frequent belief in Christianty that Eternal Security is a doctrine of the devil. Why? Because the Apostles talked about it and they're of the devil? That's essentially what they're saying. Its commonly taught that the basic idea of the reformed theology is from the Devil as well. Why? Because Paul is of the devil? Be careful what you're saying here. I didn't write these things, the Apostles and Prophets did. The apostle Paul may have had a shady past but Christ said he was chosen by God and everything that comes from his mouth is true, even Peter said so. I'll say it again. We are saved by Grace through faith. This faith is not of ourselves but is a gift from God and that faith will last now and forever. Amen!

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Calvinist theology and the modern doctrine of Eternal Security does make man a robot.

Is a Christian man, physically alive here on the planet Earth, who has been justified through faith, capable of permanently rejecting the gift of salvation that our Lord has given him?

By your theology the answer is no. He is incapable of making a free-will choice to continue to follow God, or to not to follow God. He is a programmed robot, a puppet.

Goodhuman said:

What do you mean?

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I thought my meaning was obvious. What is going on in that picture? It is what I think you were doing in your post. Perhaps this is an English speaking idiom. At least in the English speaking world , cherry picking is when one searches to find a small phrase or sentence and quotes it out of context as part of their argument.

Bible Highlighter said:

It was a reply to your post #37.

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I assumed that but I don't see the connection between what I posted and what you posted. Perhaps you could elucidate?

FutureAndAHope said:

Not at all. Eternal Security does not stand up to the test of scripture. Hebrews is a book given to us to warn us not to slip away.

Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things that were heard, lest haply we drift away from them.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 6:4-6 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

You can be "once enlightened" , by the "Holy Spirit", then "fall away".

Our security is based on the cross, yes, and by grace, but it is not guaranteed.

Heb 10:35-38 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.


2Pe 1:2-10 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

When we are saved the Holy Spirit empowers us to leave behind our sins, we share in the Divine nature. It is our job to maintain, and add to our virtues, with the assistance of God, who strengthens us as we seek Him daily.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mar 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

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You're right about most of it, but you have to take into consideration other passages, especially in the Gospel of John. For example, in John 6:38-40 and 10:28-30, one good rule for Bible interpretation is to use the clear texts to interpret the less clear passages. I think that these clear verses help us understand the less clear ones that you quote.

A person may appear to be a Christian but is not, whereas a person may be sinning greatly but actually be a rebellious Christian. Both types of people have biblical examples. The John passages clearly show that once a person has received the new birth, he or she will always be saved. The problem we have is that we can't see people's hearts.

In fact, all Christians accept this reality. The original and true Christian Church, the one Church Jesus Christ founded, the Catholic Church, has consistently taught this truth for the past 2,000 years. Manmade Protestant churches, founded within the past few hundred years, teach that same truth, because they found it in the Bible, which was compiled by the Catholic Church in the 4th Century, from its own writings. Therefore, nothing in Catholic teaching can contradict the Bible, and nothing in the Bible - accurately and authoritatively interpreted - can contradict the teaching of the Catholic Church. Protestants, desperate to legitimize their defection from the Church Jesus founded, dream up these false accusations about the Catholic Church. If they just took the time to read some accurate information about the teaching of the Catholic Church, the would realize how silly such accusations are.

BNR32FAN said:

I would say that it would be more accurate to say that Jesus walked in obedience to God’s commandments rather than He walked in obedience to the Mosaic law because the Mosaic law went a step further to define God’s commandments and in doing so added stipulations that were not actually commanded by God. For example the Mosaic law forbid even doing good works on the Sabbath and Jesus clarified to us that this was not God’s intention when He gave the commandment to keep the Sabbath. The same can be said about harvesting grain on the Sabbath. Apparently it was God’s intention that man refrain from work and rest on the Sabbath but it was not His intention for man to go hungry and abstain from gathering food he needed to eat that day. So the Mosaic law contained interpretational errors of God’s commandments. The Jews wanted to better define God’s commandments so that they wouldn’t inadvertently sin against God so they took it a step above & beyond what God had originally intended.

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In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded without departing from it, so all of the Law of Moses is the Law of God. Likewise, the Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of Moses in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:21-22.

A number of the laws of God appear to conflict with each other, such as what happened when someone wanted to obey the command to circumcise their baby on 8th day and it happened to fall on the Sabbath, or when God commanded priests to make offering on the Sabbath. However, it was not the case that they were forced to sin by breaking one of the two commandments no matter what they chose to do, but that one of the commandments was never intended to be understood as preventing the greater commandment from being obeyed. This is why it is common within Judaism to ask rabbis about what they considered to be the greatest commandment, or in other words, about which commandment had the highest priority. They also consider positive commands to do something to have higher priority than negative commands to not do something.

Some Pharisees who were most likely from the house of Shammai considered healing to be work and therefore prohibited by the Sabbath, however, we are also commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves, and it would not be loving our neighbor if we refused to heal them, which is why Jesus ruled that it was lawful to heal on the Sabbath in accordance with that being one of the greatest two commandments. This is also why David and his men were held innocent for eating the showbread, why priests were held innocent for performing their duties on the Sabbath, and why Jesus defended the innocence of his disciples (Matthew 12:5-7). While it was lawful to pick grain for our own consumption on the Sabbath, it was still unlawful for someone to harvest their field.

This is also the same type of issue as the scenario of whether we should tell a lie if a Nazi asked us whether we were hiding Jews. However, the interpretive issue of which commandment has the highest priority in a particular situation is different from the interpretive issue of how to correctly follow a particular commandment. The Tabernacle had strong parallels to Creation, so Jews have associated the 39 forms of work that went in creating the Tabernacle with the forms of creative work that are prohibited when God rested after Creation, which they have rigorously defined as the correct way to obey the command to rest on the Sabbath.

Bible Highlighter said:

No argument against being born again, but the point here is that the verses I had shown you proves that we need to continue to do our part as a part of God's plan of salvation. We need to keep ourselves in the love of God.

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I have learned directly from Christ and I have had by butt kicked by Christ. He loves me and I love Him. He has shown me Perfect Love and as it heals, it also makes for growth. If you are Truly born again and sin willfully, you will regret it more than my words can relay. It is captivity made captive.

BNR32FAN said:

I believe Paul was explaining this very situation in Ephesians 4 & 5.

“So I say this, and affirm in the Lord, that you are to no longer walk just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their minds, being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves up to indecent behavior for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former way of life, you are to rid yourselves of the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you are to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. Therefore, ridding yourselves of falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE OF YOU WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, because we are parts of one another. B E ANGRY, AND YET DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and do not give the devil an opportunity. The one who steals must no longer steal; but rather he must labor, producing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with the one who has need. Let no unwholesome word come out of your mouth, but if there is any good word for edification according to the need of the moment, say that, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. All bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and slander must be removed from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:17-32‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But sexual immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness or foolish talk, or vulgar joking, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no sexually immoral or impure or greedy person, which amounts to an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. See that no one deceives you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not become partners with them; for you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), as you try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Do not participate in the useless deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. For this reason it says, “Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you.” So then, be careful how you walk, not as unwise people but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your hearts to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to our God and Father; and subject yourselves to one another in the fear of Christ.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-21‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Notice Paul is addressing the saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ and whom are sealed with the Holy Spirit into the day of redemption. These saints are still very capable of becoming “sons of disobedience” whom which will not have an inheritance in the kingdom of God and whom will receive God’s wrath.

Paul gives a similar message in Romans 2.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL REPAY EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Even despite “God’s kindness and patience that is leading them to repentance” (God’s grace) they are building up the wrath of God upon themselves by their unrepentant heart.

Here’s another indication in Luke 13.

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Look! For three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, leave it alone for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Notice that even despite Jesus’ efforts to fertilize the tree the outcome is still uncertain whether or not the tree will bear fruit or if it will not bear fruit and be chopped down.

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As I think I might have shared, I thought I was born again about 16 years before I actually was. Christ moves in and teaches each of His brethren from the least to the greatest. When this happens, your eyes and ears are opened.

lsume said:

I have learned directly from Christ and I have had by butt kicked by Christ. He loves me and I love Him. He has shown me Perfect Love and as it heals, it also makes for growth. If you are Truly born again and sin willfully, you will regret it more than my words can relay. It is captivity made captive.

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Doesn’t sound like the same Jesus of the Bible. For Jesus says: “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15.10). Jesus says, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.” (John 8:34). Being a slave to sin means that sin is a person’s master. Jesus says, “No man can serve two masters...” (Matthew 6:24).