Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

section9+1 said:

no

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No surprise. That seems to be the majority position.

It indicates a serious spiritual illness to me. That a decision to be a Christian is fear-based. A choice made purely for self-preservation. Spiritual extortion by the church.

The presentation of our loving heavenly Father as a hate-filled cosmic tyrant, or an angry volcano god. A god who requires us to love our enemies while he pours out his "wrath" in unspeakable terms on those he has predestined to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape. Countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus.

A "gospel" message that asks us to receive the free gift of eternal life, otherwise we will be incinerated. Jesus giving his life to save us from God.

Welcome to the club.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Would you choose to be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

Saint Steven said:

What do you mean "say"?
There are 29 references to "realm of the dead" in the NIV translation. What do they describe? A realm where the dead are. (the realm of the dead) If you are looking for the exact phrase "realm of the dead", it's not likely to be found. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Can you find the word "Trinity" in the Bible?

Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Isaiah 14:9
The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations.

Ezekiel 32:27
But they do not lie with the fallen warriors of old, who went down to the realm of the dead with their weapons of war—their swords placed under their heads and their shields resting on their bones—though these warriors also had terrorized the land of the living.

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Okay, great, so the Hebrew and Greek don’t actually say “realm of the dead”.

Maybe we should use the word “Sheol” that they used and were familiar with, not a phrase applied by English translators.

I’m surprised that you are pounding the NIV so hard - I bet if I used the NIV or another English translation to emphasize the word “eternal” in English, you would prefer to use a literal version(and I have seen you do it), but I digress


Ecclesiastes 9:4
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing

Psalm 6:4-5
Return, O Yahweh deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in Sheol who shall give thee thanks?

this doesn’t sound to me like some sort of afterlife. David plainly asks a rhetorical question: who will give you thanks in Sheol? Nobody, because the dead are unconscious. They’re not awake and conscious to give thanks.

David does not want to go down to Sheol because he can’t remember God and thank God when he is in Sheol, because he will be dead and unconscious.

To quote C. S. Lewis. God is good, but he is certainly not safe. Isaiah 8:13. Matt. 10:28. Your gospel is a revision of scripture that has occurred over the last few generations. God has become a safe, kindly toothless old heavenly grandfather who wouldn't hurt a fly even if he could. Nothing but love and kisses. There's too much scripture that says otherwise. You have to be willing to get rid of too much bible to find your god.

MMXX said:

Well what I'm looking for is people's motivation for being a Christian. Is it just to stay out of hell and get into heaven?

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I worship God because he is worthy of worship... I glorify Him because all Glory belongs to Him.

However, HE is worthy partly because He fulfills His promises, and is faithful even when we are not and the list goes on.

It's not a get out of hell free card... it's about being before His throne in heaven in worship of Him for all eternity - I'm especially excited about that part, the experience that is the God of the heavens and earth, in a place without time...

What little suffering there is here, in comparison to that!

But worship of God, is mainly that I think God's worthy of it. If I didn't truly believe that, I wouldn't bother with any of it. But I do, so there's your answer. A God who is truly God, is worthy regardless of where we end up in the end.

Dkh587 said:

Okay, great, so the Hebrew and Greek don’t actually say “realm of the dead”.

Maybe we should use the word “Sheol” that they used and were familiar with, not a phrase applied by English translators.

I’m surprised that you are pounding the NIV so hard - I bet if I used the NIV or another English translation to emphasize the word “eternal” in English, you would prefer to use a literal version(and I have seen you do it), but I digress


Ecclesiastes 9:4
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing

Psalm 6:4-5
Return, O Yahweh deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in Sheol who shall give thee thanks?

this doesn’t sound to me like some sort of afterlife. David plainly asks a rhetorical question: who will give you thanks in Sheol? Nobody, because the dead are unconscious. They’re not awake and conscious to give thanks.

David does not want to go down to Sheol because he can’t remember God and thank God when he is in Sheol, because he will be dead and unconscious.

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That's the real problem here. The belief in death as unconscious nonexistence. No wonder you would bristle at the term "the realm of the dead". Even though that is what Sheol/Hades is.

section9+1 said:

To quote C. S. Lewis. God is good, but he is certainly not safe. ...

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That would be, Aslan.
Aslan is good, but he is not safe. (the Chronicles of Narnia)

section9+1 said:

Bible says eternal life is the reward of our faith. So faith (Christianity) contains the promise of a reward. A benefit. I agree doing good things is beneficial, but you don't need to be a Christian to do good things. Anyone can do that. But a non-Christian's reward is found in this life and that's as far as it goes. A Christian's is found in the next.

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Except eternal life isn't a reward. And treating it like it's the reward for having picked the right set of religious beliefs presents Christianity as largely arbitrary and God as rather capricious.

Eternal life isn't a reward, it's God's purpose for creation. When God made all things He made them "exceedingly good" and made all things with purpose, goodness, and permanence--for life.

That's why St. Paul says the final enemy is death.

Because death, sin, etc is no impediment to God's good purposes; He is Creator and Redeemer. Redeeming that which He has made--that's salvation.

What God did for Jesus God is going to do for the whole world. That is why St. Paul in Romans ch. 8 says, "If the Spirit of Him who raised Christ up from the dead dwells also in you, then He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies." (Romans 8:11)

It is the hope of resurrection, and the renewal and healing of all creation that is the Christian hope.

That's not reward, that's God's good purpose.

The day will come when Christ returns, the dead shall be raised, and there will be judgment of the living and the dead; and God will make all things new.

History has conclusion, the present age will come to a close.

Entropy does not win.

God wins. God has won in Christ, and God's victory in Christ is for all. Thus in the final analysis, after all enemies lay subject under Christ's feet, God will be all in all.

It's not "Christians go to heaven, non-Christians go to hell."

It's God is going to marry heaven and earth together in the end, and God will be all in all, and all of creation renewed and healed in Him shall enjoy the absolute fullness of life forever. Unto the ages of ages, forever and ever, world without end. We who have put our faith in Christ have hope of that, as we have the promises of God that we have been reconciled to God, our sins are forgiven, and the gift of the Holy Spirit is the guarantee--the "down payment" as it were--of that reality.

So what of hell? Not a punishment, but if the above is what God is all about and what God is doing, hell can rightly be called "not that".

To quote C.S. Lewis,

"It's not a question of God 'sending' us to Hell. In each of us there is something growing up which will of itself be Hell unless it is nipped in the bud." - C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock

-CryptoLutheran

I'll stick with what the bible says and leave the dreaming to others.

Saint Steven said:

That would be, Aslan.
Aslan is good, but he is not safe. (the Chronicles of Narnia)

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Yes, but we know who Lewis equated Aslan with.

section9+1 said:

Yes, but we know who Lewis equated Aslan with.

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Yes, to Christ. Not to God, as stated in the post.

And if you were referring to Universal Restorationism, it has not appeared recently, it was a primary doctrine in the early church. Four of the six theology schools held this view.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

section9+1 said:

Your gospel is a revision of scripture that has occurred over the last few generations.

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Even Damnationists falsely claim that Origen was anathematized by the Roman church for Universalist teachings. When did that supposedly happen? (the last few generations? - nope)

section9+1 said:

There's too much scripture that says otherwise. You have to be willing to get rid of too much bible to find your god.

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So, the one with the most Bible verses wins? Is that how this works?

Hazelelponi said:

... A God who is truly God, is worthy regardless of where we end up in the end.

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Good answer. And well put. Thanks.

So, you see the value in being a Christian in the here and now, even if there is no afterlife?

section9+1 said:

I'll stick with what the bible says and leave the dreaming to others.

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Fair enough. What do you make of this? (see scripture below)
- What was the result of the "one trespass" in verse eighteen?
- What was the result of the "one righteous act" in verse eighteen?
- What were "the many" made through the disobedience of the one man in verse nineteen?
- What were "the many" made through the obedience of the one man in verse nineteen?

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

MMXX said:

I decided to reword this.

The Old Testament has very little to say about what happens in the afterlife. Yet throughout the OT many worshipped and served God, even to the point of execution. So hypothetically speaking if heaven and hell were put aside, would you still follow Jesus?

Answers could be something like "no way, I'm just in this because I don't want to fry" or "yes I would continue to follow Jesus no matter what" to "as long as the church serves coffee and doughnuts, I'm in"

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There would be no point in following Christ if I did not believe in Him. If I decided He was lying about eternal life then why would I believe anything else He told me? Following anyone because you are afraid that if you don't you will be harmed is not a reasonable attitude. Christ comes to us and offers us love, forgiveness and reconciliation. Part of that is the promise of eternal life. You can't separate Christ from that promise and still have the Christ we are following. We follow the Christ who exists not some hypothetical fictional Christ.

Saint Steven said:

Fair enough. What do you make of this? (see scripture below)
- What was the result of the "one trespass" in verse eighteen?
- What was the result of the "one righteous act" in verse eighteen?
- What were "the many" made through the disobedience of the one man in verse nineteen?
- What were "the many" made through the obedience of the one man in verse nineteen?

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

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I don't see a problem. But you're making me yawn.

section9+1 said:

I don't see a problem. But you're making me yawn.

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My apologies. I thought you were interested in what the Bible says about the subject. If that's a snooze fest, I probably can't help you.

Do you have any loved ones that will be incinerated in the afterlife?

Saint Steven said:

That's the real problem here. The belief in death as unconscious nonexistence. No wonder you would bristle at the term "the realm of the dead". Even though that is what Sheol/Hades is.

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David & Solomon sure thought Sheol was unconscious non-existence, so I don’t see a problem.

Dkh587 said:

David & Solomon sure thought Sheol was unconscious non-existence, so I don’t see a problem.

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What about the other 27 passages about the realm of the dead? Even Solomon said the realm of the dead is "a place" we are going. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) And David said he would not be abandoned there. (Acts 2:25-28) Why worry about being abandoned if there is no consciousness of it? Or if death was non-existence?

Do you also agree with Solomon about this? (see bold)
I don't recommend basing your doctrine on poetry.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.