Is Christianity a religion of "No?"

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Junia

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They are interesting questions, aren't they? How do we as the body of Christ do God's work in this time and place? And why do we spend so much bandwidth talking about what we shouldn't do rather than what we as the Church should do?

Is there a higher purpose to being a Christian beyond saving ourselves from Hell? If that is all there is, it seems rather self-serving.

Yes because we already have been saved from Hell. That has been taken care of. Unless we abandon the faith or fall
Into unrepentant serious sin which hardens our conscience we are definitely not going there. HEll has nothing to do with the true born again believers

We do good works because the Holy Spirit is in us and we want to do them. That is the fruit of salvation
 
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timothyu

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Is there a higher purpose to being a Christian beyond saving ourselves from Hell? If that is all there is, it seems rather self-serving.
Exactly. The gentile institution made it about us because they took Christianity and made it about them when they denied the Kingdom and returned to work in tandem with the governance of man.. Jesus made it about the will of the Father and how His will has always supposed to supersede the will of man. Guess some folks didn't like the idea and remade it back about us again.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I've recently been listening to the audio book version Tom Wright's Surprised By Hope, and I can say pretty confidently that I think Wright would argue vehemently that not only is Christianity not a religion of no, but it is the religion of yes.

It is the yes to justice, the yes to hope, the yes to creation, the yes to mercy.

For Wright (and anyone more-or-less familiar with him likely knows already) that the modern Church's failure to rightly and clearly confess its ancient and historic hope, and instead substituting that with a very lousy theology of people being whisked away into heaven to escape the world has had the effect of drastically changing how Christians live and act in relation toward the world.

A theology that says this world does not matter, that the Christian life is about a life of spiritual purity and aiming for the bright shining prize of Platonic disembodied eternal bliss is a theology that is thoroughly unconcerned with real life. And, of course, that theology is not only wrong, but is properly speaking, actual heresy.

A theology thoroughly unconcerned with real life is a theology that really doesn't have anything to say at all. For one, it provides absolutely no challenge to the status quo of society--after all what does it matter what is happening in our society, we just keep our noses down, and then we get to leave it all behind. So sure, things are bad, and things will continue to be bad, why bother doing anything about it?

Not only is it thoroughly un-hopeful, it's nihilistic.

But if God's word to creation is actually yes, and that yes means hope, justice, and actually living; and the Christian Gospel is precisely that very thing--Christ is risen, and what God has done for Jesus He is going to do for the whole world--and we have the opportunity to behold the glimmer of that, cherishing that is hope, and then bring that back with us right here and now--that means actually living, doing, and saying something.

A theology of escapist fantasy and nihilism is a theology in collusion with death. Where true theology of hope and resurrection is a theology that stands against death.

And, it should not be ignored that we see this shift in theology away from the historic Christian confession stretching back to the first century, at just around the same time that the West entered into a period of affluent and political ascendancy. We are, generally speaking, remarkably removed from suffering. Which is why it's been said that only in wealthy, comfortable, affluent America could something like the doctrine of the Rapture gain such widespread support in the modern era--because the notion that one might actually suffer substantially in this world is a distant nightmare, not a lived-in reality as it is for hundreds of millions of others around the world.

And because of all that, such a massive gulf between these two theologies means very different kinds of ethea. An ethos that stresses cultural and moral purity for the sake of "the soul" on the one hand; and an ethos that stresses justice for the poor, the sick, the hungry, and the orphan on the other.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Junia

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I've recently been listening to the audio book version Tom Wright's Surprised By Hope, and I can say pretty confidently that I think Wright would argue vehemently that not only is Christianity not a religion of no, but it is the religion of yes.

It is the yes to justice, the yes to hope, the yes to creation, the yes to mercy.

For Wright (and anyone more-or-less familiar with him likely knows already) that the modern Church's failure to rightly and clearly confess its ancient and historic hope, and instead substituting that with a very lousy theology of people being whisked away into heaven to escape the world has had the effect of drastically changing how Christians live and act in relation toward the world.

A theology that says this world does not matter, that the Christian life is about a life of spiritual purity and aiming for the bright shining prize of Platonic disembodied eternal bliss is a theology that is thoroughly unconcerned with real life. And, of course, that theology is not only wrong, but is properly speaking, actual heresy.

A theology thoroughly unconcerned with real life is a theology that really doesn't have anything to say at all. For one, it provides absolutely no challenge to the status quo of society--after all what does it matter what is happening in our society, we just keep our noses down, and then we get to leave it all behind. So sure, things are bad, and things will continue to be bad, why bother doing anything about it?

Not only is it thoroughly un-hopeful, it's nihilistic.

But if God's word to creation is actually yes, and that yes means hope, justice, and actually living; and the Christian Gospel is precisely that very thing--Christ is risen, and what God has done for Jesus He is going to do for the whole world--and we have the opportunity to behold the glimmer of that, cherishing that is hope, and then bring that back with us right here and now--that means actually living, doing, and saying something.

A theology of escapist fantasy and nihilism is a theology in collusion with death. Where true theology of hope and resurrection is a theology that stands against death.

And, it should not be ignored that we see this shift in theology away from the historic Christian confession stretching back to the first century, at just around the same time that the West entered into a period of affluent and political ascendancy. We are, generally speaking, remarkably removed from suffering. Which is why it's been said that only in wealthy, comfortable, affluent America could something like the doctrine of the Rapture gain such widespread support in the modern era--because the notion that one might actually suffer substantially in this world is a distant nightmare, not a lived-in reality as it is for hundreds of millions of others around the world.

And because of all that, such a massive gulf between these two theologies means very different kinds of ethea. An ethos that stresses cultural and moral purity for the sake of "the soul" on the one hand; and an ethos that stresses justice for the poor, the sick, the hungry, and the orphan on the other.

-CryptoLutheran

brilliant post except on this forum many of us aren't American or wealthy.....so I think that's a bit of a generalisation
 
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Junia

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I've recently been listening to the audio book version Tom Wright's Surprised By Hope, and I can say pretty confidently that I think Wright would argue vehemently that not only is Christianity not a religion of no, but it is the religion of yes.

It is the yes to justice, the yes to hope, the yes to creation, the yes to mercy.

For Wright (and anyone more-or-less familiar with him likely knows already) that the modern Church's failure to rightly and clearly confess its ancient and historic hope, and instead substituting that with a very lousy theology of people being whisked away into heaven to escape the world has had the effect of drastically changing how Christians live and act in relation toward the world.

A theology that says this world does not matter, that the Christian life is about a life of spiritual purity and aiming for the bright shining prize of Platonic disembodied eternal bliss is a theology that is thoroughly unconcerned with real life. And, of course, that theology is not only wrong, but is properly speaking, actual heresy.

A theology thoroughly unconcerned with real life is a theology that really doesn't have anything to say at all. For one, it provides absolutely no challenge to the status quo of society--after all what does it matter what is happening in our society, we just keep our noses down, and then we get to leave it all behind. So sure, things are bad, and things will continue to be bad, why bother doing anything about it?

Not only is it thoroughly un-hopeful, it's nihilistic.

But if God's word to creation is actually yes, and that yes means hope, justice, and actually living; and the Christian Gospel is precisely that very thing--Christ is risen, and what God has done for Jesus He is going to do for the whole world--and we have the opportunity to behold the glimmer of that, cherishing that is hope, and then bring that back with us right here and now--that means actually living, doing, and saying something.

A theology of escapist fantasy and nihilism is a theology in collusion with death. Where true theology of hope and resurrection is a theology that stands against death.

And, it should not be ignored that we see this shift in theology away from the historic Christian confession stretching back to the first century, at just around the same time that the West entered into a period of affluent and political ascendancy. We are, generally speaking, remarkably removed from suffering. Which is why it's been said that only in wealthy, comfortable, affluent America could something like the doctrine of the Rapture gain such widespread support in the modern era--because the notion that one might actually suffer substantially in this world is a distant nightmare, not a lived-in reality as it is for hundreds of millions of others around the world.

And because of all that, such a massive gulf between these two theologies means very different kinds of ethea. An ethos that stresses cultural and moral purity for the sake of "the soul" on the one hand; and an ethos that stresses justice for the poor, the sick, the hungry, and the orphan on the other.

-CryptoLutheran
I

I much prefer the social justice ethos too!

After all once we are saved, if we are truly born again, hell is not our destiny unless we make it so by rejecting our faith
 
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timothyu

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Christians need to get over the idea that what Jesus taught focuses on us. We are a side note, beneficiaries of something greater. People are all me me me when it comes to salvation, but the reality of what Jesus did was to bring the Father back among the people in the establishment of His Kingdom, the new Eden. His will be done in earth as it is in Heaven. We have been selfishly serving self since the Garden and for some reason still want to make even this all about us. This is about God.
 
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Junia

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Christians need to get over the idea that what Jesus taught focuses on us. We are a side note, beneficiaries of something greater. People are all me me me when it comes to salvation, but the reality of what Jesus did was to bring the Father back among the people in the establishment of His Kingdom, the new Eden. His will be done in earth as it is in Heaven. We have been selfishly serving self since the Garden and for some reason still want to make even this all about us. This is about God.

Yes!

In think fear is often a self centred emotion. Once we establish that perfect love has cast out fear and we are completely justified in Jesus , this frees us to enjoy Jesus and serving Him.

serving Him, doing good works is a privilege once we are saved not a must do or else!
 
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FireDragon76

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I've recently been listening to the audio book version Tom Wright's Surprised By Hope, and I can say pretty confidently that I think Wright would argue vehemently that not only is Christianity not a religion of no, but it is the religion of yes.

It is the yes to justice, the yes to hope, the yes to creation, the yes to mercy.

For Wright (and anyone more-or-less familiar with him likely knows already) that the modern Church's failure to rightly and clearly confess its ancient and historic hope, and instead substituting that with a very lousy theology of people being whisked away into heaven to escape the world has had the effect of drastically changing how Christians live and act in relation toward the world.

A theology that says this world does not matter, that the Christian life is about a life of spiritual purity and aiming for the bright shining prize of Platonic disembodied eternal bliss is a theology that is thoroughly unconcerned with real life. And, of course, that theology is not only wrong, but is properly speaking, actual heresy.

A theology thoroughly unconcerned with real life is a theology that really doesn't have anything to say at all. For one, it provides absolutely no challenge to the status quo of society--after all what does it matter what is happening in our society, we just keep our noses down, and then we get to leave it all behind. So sure, things are bad, and things will continue to be bad, why bother doing anything about it?

Not only is it thoroughly un-hopeful, it's nihilistic.

But if God's word to creation is actually yes, and that yes means hope, justice, and actually living; and the Christian Gospel is precisely that very thing--Christ is risen, and what God has done for Jesus He is going to do for the whole world--and we have the opportunity to behold the glimmer of that, cherishing that is hope, and then bring that back with us right here and now--that means actually living, doing, and saying something.

A theology of escapist fantasy and nihilism is a theology in collusion with death. Where true theology of hope and resurrection is a theology that stands against death.

And, it should not be ignored that we see this shift in theology away from the historic Christian confession stretching back to the first century, at just around the same time that the West entered into a period of affluent and political ascendancy. We are, generally speaking, remarkably removed from suffering. Which is why it's been said that only in wealthy, comfortable, affluent America could something like the doctrine of the Rapture gain such widespread support in the modern era--because the notion that one might actually suffer substantially in this world is a distant nightmare, not a lived-in reality as it is for hundreds of millions of others around the world.

And because of all that, such a massive gulf between these two theologies means very different kinds of ethea. An ethos that stresses cultural and moral purity for the sake of "the soul" on the one hand; and an ethos that stresses justice for the poor, the sick, the hungry, and the orphan on the other.

-CryptoLutheran

Unfortunately, Tom Wright's thought isn't without its pitfalls and I don't think his conclusions follow from his premise. Actually, Wrights reading of the New Testament could lead to even more of an apocalyptic doomsday cult mentality to Christianity than the "platonic" interpretation. He incorrectly focuses on the eschaton rather than the incarnation.
 
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Par5

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So many posts on this thread talk about sin. I have lived most of the years I am going to live, and I am sure that my everyday life experiences are the same as those of a Christian.
Sin seems to be the stumbling block to receiving eternal life, but Christians believe that belief in their god, and being born again, saves them from sin and prevents their soul from being placed in mortal danger.
I don't believe in the Christian god so I am not considered saved or born again by Christians. That would seem to mean that my life is sinful and that when I am finally looking up at the daisies my soul is eternal toast.
Other than my lack of belief, what is so different about how I live my life compared to that of a Christian?
What exactly are these "sins" I commit that put my soul in jeopardy, or is it simply my lack of belief?
If you believe you need your faith to help you lead a better life, then fair enough, but that doesn't necessarily apply to everyone else.
 
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coffee4u

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Is Christianity a religion of "No?" Lately I've been thinking of all the CF threads having to do with the, "thou shalt nots" of the faith. Sometimes it seems to me that we spend a whole lot more time as Christians, leastwise here on CF, thinking and talking about what we are not supposed to do rather than what we are supposed to do as Christians. Ethos is a two-edged sword including both the immoral and the moral, or said otherwise, that to avoid and that to embrace.

I think of a college roommate who I thought was one of the most moral persons I had ever met, except that he had never been to church and knew nothing about Christianity. It begs the question, if we as Christians get all the "thou shalt nots" right could we still fall short because we fail to embrace the positive ethos of Christianity...those positive things that we are supposed to do if we are to walk in the way of Christ?

I think there is more to the faith that just avoiding sin. What does it mean to you to walk in the way of Christ other than avoiding sin, and how do you operationalize that in your life or your church?

The only No, is no to sin. But it isn't even about avoiding sin, it's a hatred towards sin so that sin no longer feels fun. Most people avoid things they hate so in that sense it also becomes a positive. Avoiding sin was a positive even before we realized it because all of God's commands are really for our ultimate well being, physically, spiritual or mentally.

Apart from that it is all yes. Yes it is a personal relationship with Jesus, yes it is love, joy, peace and hope. Yes it is eternal life and yes it is washing away of sins.

You don't go to heaven by avoiding sin, you go to heaven because of your faith in Jesus.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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They are interesting questions, aren't they? How do we as the body of Christ do God's work in this time and place? And why do we spend so much bandwidth talking about what we shouldn't do rather than what we as the Church should do?

Is there a higher purpose to being a Christian beyond saving ourselves from Hell? If that is all there is, it seems rather self-serving.

If that's the best one can do it's probably ok with God.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So many posts on this thread talk about sin. I have lived most of the years I am going to live, and I am sure that my everyday life experiences are the same as those of a Christian.
Sin seems to be the stumbling block to receiving eternal life, but Christians believe that belief in their god, and being born again, saves them from sin and prevents their soul from being placed in mortal danger.
I don't believe in the Christian god so I am not considered saved or born again by Christians. That would seem to mean that my life is sinful and that when I am finally looking up at the daisies my soul is eternal toast.
Other than my lack of belief, what is so different about how I live my life compared to that of a Christian?
What exactly are these "sins" I commit that put my soul in jeopardy, or is it simply my lack of belief?
If you believe you need your faith to help you lead a better life, then fair enough, but that doesn't necessarily apply to everyone else.

Christians are few in number and are very special to God. So much so that for our protection God disguises us to look and act pretty much like everyone else. And for the most part we try not to reveal ourselves as well.
 
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Par5

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Christians are few in number and are very special to God. So much so that for our protection God disguises us to look and act pretty much like everyone else. And for the most part we try not to reveal ourselves as well.
Thank you for your reply, although I have to say I found it rather strange. What I take from it is that Christians behave no differently from non-believers when it comes to everyday life, which seems reasonable enough, but I take issue with your statement about Christians trying not to reveal themselves. In my experience, Christians are not exactly what you would call shrinking violets when it comes to professing their faith.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Thank you for your reply, although I have to say I found it rather strange. What I take from it is that Christians behave no differently from non-believers when it comes to everyday life, which seems reasonable enough, but I take issue with your statement about Christians trying not to reveal themselves. In my experience, Christians are not exactly what you would call shrinking violets when it comes to professing their faith.

True, there are many who are quite vocal about it. But as they mature they will also become less conspicuous.
 
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CatsRule2020

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Is Christianity a religion of "No?" Lately I've been thinking of all the CF threads having to do with the, "thou shalt nots" of the faith. Sometimes it seems to me that we spend a whole lot more time as Christians, leastwise here on CF, thinking and talking about what we are not supposed to do rather than what we are supposed to do as Christians. Ethos is a two-edged sword including both the immoral and the moral, or said otherwise, that to avoid and that to embrace.

I think of a college roommate who I thought was one of the most moral persons I had ever met, except that he had never been to church and knew nothing about Christianity. It begs the question, if we as Christians get all the "thou shalt nots" right could we still fall short because we fail to embrace the positive ethos of Christianity...those positive things that we are supposed to do if we are to walk in the way of Christ?

I think there is more to the faith that just avoiding sin. What does it mean to you to walk in the way of Christ other than avoiding sin, and how do you operationalize that in your life or your church?
Psalm 1:1
King James Version

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

The very first principles of Christianity are to clean out the old things of a person's life so that new principles can be added.
Therefore, the 'no' things come first.
 
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The world is a dangerous place. Saying no to behaviors and activities that place us at risk should be the first order of education. Like the person recalling his strict childhood,

"For the the first three years of my life I thought my name was "NO!".
 
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seeking.IAM

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Yes, okay, but then what? The point of this thread was an observation about how much bandwidth we give here to the subject of sin compared to how much bandwidth we give here to what we are doing in our lives or our churches to impact our neighbors, our brethren, and/or our world as the body of Christ.
 
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timothyu

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Yes, okay, but then what? The point of this thread was an observation about how much bandwidth we give here to the subject of sin compared to how much bandwidth we give here to what we are doing in our lives or our churches to impact our neighbors, our brethren, and/or our world as the body of Christ.
We either follow the will of God or the will of man, one nature or the other. We are a combination of the two yet the will of man is our baser instinct, the one we use in order to survive. We as humans go a step beyond in developing intellect and that is where the choice of which way to live comes in as we are also capable because of that intellect to seek gain at the expense of others or to help others gain, sometimes at out own expense.

The choice determines how close to God we may become. Some live only by their baser instincts, most live choosing personal gain, few live by the will of God.
 
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rjs330

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So many posts on this thread talk about sin. I have lived most of the years I am going to live, and I am sure that my everyday life experiences are the same as those of a Christian.
Sin seems to be the stumbling block to receiving eternal life, but Christians believe that belief in their god, and being born again, saves them from sin and prevents their soul from being placed in mortal danger.
I don't believe in the Christian god so I am not considered saved or born again by Christians. That would seem to mean that my life is sinful and that when I am finally looking up at the daisies my soul is eternal toast.
Other than my lack of belief, what is so different about how I live my life compared to that of a Christian?
What exactly are these "sins" I commit that put my soul in jeopardy, or is it simply my lack of belief?
If you believe you need your faith to help you lead a better life, then fair enough, but that doesn't necessarily apply to everyone else.

It's not about "how" you live your life. It's about "who" you live your life for. You and I are born condemned because we are born in sin. The difference is I came to recognize that and placed my trust in Jesus Christ and not in myself. The scripture teaches believers that they too sin. However as a believer recognize that and ask God for forgiveness for that.

Unbelievers do not trust in Christ to save them. They do not ask God to forgive them and cleanse them from sin.

We are not saved because we are better. It's not about works or being more righteous in ourselves. It's about trust. Trust in Jesus to save me. My soul would be toast if I had to trust in myself to save it. Thanks be to God and Christ I don't have to.

We are saved by grace and not works. Through faith in Jesus.

All the "sin" talk is simply trying to point out that we are not perfect and not good. Because we as humans want to believe we are.
 
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rjs330

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What I am about to say does not apply to unbelievers.

Have we forgotten that the epistles were written to the churches? They are FILLED with teaching on how a believer should live. Or not live. Yes there are a lot of "no" in the teaching. Contrasted with a lot of "yes". Do this, not that. Don't do that, do this instead. It's instruction on how a believer should conduct themselves. And the good part of that is we have the power of the holy spirit in us to help us. He helps us overcome the no and fulfill the yes. In our individual lives as well as the corporate body. The epistles were not written to tell the unbeliever how he should live. It was to explain how we should.

And to give us sound doctrine so we can understand and maybe explain to the seeker why they are in need of a savior. Because we ALL are.

All the unbeliever needs to know is that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. And that none of us are good enough or can be to inherit his kingdom. That Jesus is the only way.

The rest of it, is about learning to walk in Christ AFTER we believe.
 
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