Manuscript information on extrabiblical writings?

JSRG · Jan 18, 2021

While there's a lot of information on dates/locations/contents of biblical manuscripts, there seems to be much less information readily available concerning the manuscripts of extrabiblical Christian texts. For example, Shepherd of Hermas, Ignatius's epistles, Irenaeus, Origen, Jerome, etc.

This page gave some useful information for the writings of Tertullian, but I've had much less success in finding information like that about other early Christian writings. I can find bits and pieces scattered around--for example, the fact they found a fragment of the original Greek of Against Heresies that dates to around 200 AD--but not a good list of them in general (e.g. more general information about the manuscripts of Against Heresies)

I'm chiefly looking for information about their locations and dates of writing, as well as some kind of general information regarding their contents (not necessarily something really in depth like how they relate to other manuscripts, just statements on whether it's the full work and if not, about how much of the work it is). I'm also interested in manuscripture information regarding translations of them.

Does anyone know of any good places to find this information? I'm going to guess some of it isn't online and is instead in books, but I'm not sure what books to consult on this sort of thing.

mlepfitjw · Jan 18, 2021

Hmmm good question. Have you tried looking at the places in the Bible that are name of locations and places ? There is only one that that wrote their understanding of a second time that Jerusalem fell in 70ad. By Josephus, who was an unbeliever. Now not sure if you could look up Thessaloniac area in the times that were written or search for what history was like for Galatia or Ephesus (Ephesians ?).

JSRG · Jan 18, 2021

Agallagher said:
Hmmm good question. Have you tried looking at the places in the Bible that are name of locations and places ? There is only one that that wrote their understanding of a second time that Jerusalem fell in 70ad. By Josephus, who was an unbeliever. Now not sure if you could look up Thessaloniac area in the times that were written or search for what history was like for Galatia or Ephesus (Ephesians ?).

I'm sorry, I'm confused. What does this have to do with what I asked? Did you post in the wrong topic?

chevyontheriver · Jan 18, 2021

JSRG said:
While there's a lot of information on dates/locations/contents of biblical manuscripts, there seems to be much less information readily available concerning the manuscripts of extrabiblical Christian texts. For example, Shepherd of Hermas, Ignatius's epistles, Irenaeus, Origen, Jerome, etc.

This page gave some useful information for the writings of Tertullian, but I've had much less success in finding information like that about other early Christian writings. I can find bits and pieces scattered around--for example, the fact they found a fragment of the original Greek of Against Heresies that dates to around 200 AD--but not a good list of them in general (e.g. more general information about the manuscripts of Against Heresies)

I'm chiefly looking for information about their locations and dates of writing, as well as some kind of general information regarding their contents (not necessarily something really in depth like how they relate to other manuscripts, just statements on whether it's the full work and if not, about how much of the work it is). I'm also interested in manuscripture information regarding translations of them.

Does anyone know of any good places to find this information? I'm going to guess some of it isn't online and is instead in books, but I'm not sure what books to consult on this sort of thing.

There are classic works of Patrology by Tixeront and by Quasten. Might be good. Old enough to be available free online or in cheap reprints or at your local used bookstore. But they are 100 and 70 years old respectively.

Newer works are also available and are summarized here: Research and Course Guides: Patristics / Patrology -- The Early Church Fathers & Their Writings: Getting Started

I like Mike Aquilina's book but I think they can all add something. And they are much newer.

And just as food for thought I add this slightly tangential topic: https://livingchurch.org/covenant/2...rsing-the-peculiar-patrology-of-fr-john-behr/

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jan 20, 2021

The introductions in any of the larger collections of the Church fathers usually cover that sort of information. It's standard practice to talk about the history of the work itself, textual tradition and the author, his circumstances and what we know about the text. Some series I would recommend:

Fathers of the Church (Catholic University of America)

Popular Patristics (SVS Press)

Ancient Christian Writers (Paulist Press)

Medieval Library (Harvard University press)

Other than this I can only recommend looking up the particular work and finding specific academic literature on the subject. It's an expensive field of study, mainly because this sort of literature is only sold to academics or weirdos like myself. If you're really serious about studying the fathers, start investing in a library. You could also get by using a program like Logos and have access to a virtual library for a significantly less cost and space, though even that is expensive.

Daniel Marsh · Jan 20, 2021

JSRG said:
While there's a lot of information on dates/locations/contents of biblical manuscripts, there seems to be much less information readily available concerning the manuscripts of extrabiblical Christian texts. For example, Shepherd of Hermas, Ignatius's epistles, Irenaeus, Origen, Jerome, etc.

This page gave some useful information for the writings of Tertullian, but I've had much less success in finding information like that about other early Christian writings. I can find bits and pieces scattered around--for example, the fact they found a fragment of the original Greek of Against Heresies that dates to around 200 AD--but not a good list of them in general (e.g. more general information about the manuscripts of Against Heresies)

I'm chiefly looking for information about their locations and dates of writing, as well as some kind of general information regarding their contents (not necessarily something really in depth like how they relate to other manuscripts, just statements on whether it's the full work and if not, about how much of the work it is). I'm also interested in manuscripture information regarding translations of them.

Does anyone know of any good places to find this information? I'm going to guess some of it isn't online and is instead in books, but I'm not sure what books to consult on this sort of thing.

The Shepherd of Hermas is in the Codex Sinaiticus. There are 24 Greek manuscripts.

Chart: Greek Manuscripts of the Shepherd of Hermas (Pre-7th Century)

The Earliest Christian Artifacts: Manuscripts and Christian Origins Paperback – Illustrated, November 2, 2006
by Larry W. Hurtado (Author)

Bob Crowley · Jan 27, 2021

The Vatican digitised all the ancient books and manuscipts as far as I know, in a joint effort with the Bodleian Libraries of the University of Oxford, using a Japanese IT company.

One link is here, but I'll leave it to you to navigate, as I'm not really interested. But I think you'll find these are digitised copies of the "originals", and may not have been translated to English. You might have to look elsewhere for that.

Home | Polonsky Foundation Digitization Project

Daniel Marsh · Jan 29, 2021

thanks did not find the documents in pdf there.

Bob Crowley · Feb 1, 2021

Daniel Marsh said:
thanks did not find the documents in pdf there.

One of the questions I had about your post was what you meant by "manuscripts". A lot of the most ancient manuscripts would only exist in fragments (if at all, with later copies our most recent evidence), and it would take an awful lot of research to try to put them together.

I assume you're hoping to find PDF copies of "manuscripts" where someone has already done the hard yakka of compiling and translating the works eg. the full text of the "Shepherd of Hermas", "Book of Enoch" and so on translated into English.

You might find a book in this list which has part of what you're looking for.

Christian Books on NT Extra-Biblical Literature Studies | Best Commentaries Reviews

1watchman · Feb 11, 2021

JSRG said:
While there's a lot of information on dates/locations/contents of biblical manuscripts, there seems to be much less information readily available concerning the manuscripts of extrabiblical Christian texts. For example, Shepherd of Hermas, Ignatius's epistles, Irenaeus, Origen, Jerome, etc.

This page gave some useful information for the writings of Tertullian, but I've had much less success in finding information like that about other early Christian writings. I can find bits and pieces scattered around--for example, the fact they found a fragment of the original Greek of Against Heresies that dates to around 200 AD--but not a good list of them in general (e.g. more general information about the manuscripts of Against Heresies)

I'm chiefly looking for information about their locations and dates of writing, as well as some kind of general information regarding their contents (not necessarily something really in depth like how they relate to other manuscripts, just statements on whether it's the full work and if not, about how much of the work it is). I'm also interested in manuscripture information regarding translations of them.

Does anyone know of any good places to find this information? I'm going to guess some of it isn't online and is instead in books, but I'm not sure what books to consult on this sort of thing.

You might try a public library, for here it should be all about Christianity and learning about our Creator-God from His immutable "Word of Truth", I think; and that we might be saved for Heaven and learn to obey, honor, and please God as a testimony and walk in God's given path. Study of God's Word seems more important than what various religious men have written; but 'to each his own' as the saying goes.

The world's philosophical and religious ideas is irrelevant to our God. Let us concentrate on biblical truth and serving our God for man's everlasting good ---"the time is short". If one should get saved (as John 3:16; John 14; Romans 8; etc. ) that one should be urgently helping others come to Jesus Christ while the door of salvation is yet open (and even sooner some of us will be quickly taken in death).

Soon, I feel sure this age of "grace" will come to a close when the Church is called up to Heaven (known as a 'rapture'), in the "...twinkling of an eye" suddenly and then terrible judgment will fall on this world. Many who were busy after various ideas and ideologies will be left in shock. I personally just cannot appreciate going beyond Holy Scripture after religious ideas. Keep looking up!

The Liturgist · Mar 3, 2021

JSRG said:
While there's a lot of information on dates/locations/contents of biblical manuscripts, there seems to be much less information readily available concerning the manuscripts of extrabiblical Christian texts. For example, Shepherd of Hermas, Ignatius's epistles, Irenaeus, Origen, Jerome, etc.

This page gave some useful information for the writings of Tertullian, but I've had much less success in finding information like that about other early Christian writings. I can find bits and pieces scattered around--for example, the fact they found a fragment of the original Greek of Against Heresies that dates to around 200 AD--but not a good list of them in general (e.g. more general information about the manuscripts of Against Heresies)

I'm chiefly looking for information about their locations and dates of writing, as well as some kind of general information regarding their contents (not necessarily something really in depth like how they relate to other manuscripts, just statements on whether it's the full work and if not, about how much of the work it is). I'm also interested in manuscripture information regarding translations of them.

Does anyone know of any good places to find this information? I'm going to guess some of it isn't online and is instead in books, but I'm not sure what books to consult on this sort of thing.

Patristic textual criticism is an admirable pursuit, so good luck.

By the way, a lot of Patristic texts are quoted in other texts. For example, ironically, some of Origen’s less shall we say doctrinally acceptable writing is preserved in the Panarion (literallly: “First Aid Kit”) by Epiphanios the bishop of Salamis. That same work also heavily quotes Against Heresies; indeed Epiphanios will often begin by quoting Irenaeus and then inject his own commentary, and then John of Damascus used a mix of Irenaeus and Epiphanios to epitomize various ancient heresies in his Fountain of Knowledge.

Shane R · Mar 4, 2021

I did an in depth study of the Shepherd of Hermas across many months last year. I discovered that much of the academic content is only available in French or German. The definitive works in English are mostly out of print.

The Liturgist · Mar 4, 2021

Shane R said:
I did an in depth study of the Shepherd of Hermas across many months last year. I discovered that much of the academic content is only available in French or German. The definitive works in English are mostly out of print.

Did you write any of that down? Because I would enjoy reading it. Also might I ask which Anglican Church you are a priest in?

I had a good friend who was one of the last traditional Episcopalian priests in my area, but he retired, but I do have some friends in the Continuing Anglican community, including a member of my liturgical study group. We are both slightly disappointed by the 2019 BCP and are seeking to do a BCP edition that contains all of the content of the 1928 American BCP, but which also has content from other editions, such as the 1662 C of E edition, the 1549, the 1928 English deposited book, and the 1929 Scottish book, and probably the 1938 Melanesian BCP, which will also be public domain, like the Episcopalian BCPs of the past, but unlike the 2019 ACNA BCP. I don’t understand why the ACNA did not put their new BCP into the public domain, because the Episcopal Church always did that, and it historically benefitted the Episcopal church by creating good relations with other Anglican churches.

Shane R · Mar 4, 2021

The Liturgist said:
Did you write any of that down? Because I would enjoy reading it.

I am working on a book on the subject. I'm writing a Sunday school/small group manual on the Shepherd. Probably also an essay explaining why I think it should be studied by the layman.

The Liturgist said:
Also might I ask which Anglican Church you are a priest in?

Orthodox Anglican Church The Orthodox Anglican Church - North America | Proclaiming Christ in Word and Sacrament

The Liturgist said:
also has content from other editions,

Don't overlook the Irish and Canadian books.

The Liturgist · Mar 4, 2021

Shane R said:
I am working on a book on the subject. I'm writing a Sunday school/small group manual on the Shepherd. Probably also an essay explaining why I think it should be studied by the layman.

Orthodox Anglican Church The Orthodox Anglican Church - North America | Proclaiming Christ in Word and Sacrament

Don't overlook the Irish and Canadian books.

Outstanding! I strongly support your Anglican church. I am also very fond of the Anglican Province of Christ the King.

Both of those books we have studied closely and there is some content from them in the work. I will send you a PM on the subject.

Daniel Marsh · Mar 7, 2021

1watchman said:
You might try a public library, for here it should be all about Christianity and learning about our Creator-God from His immutable "Word of Truth", I think; and that we might be saved for Heaven and learn to obey, honor, and please God as a testimony and walk in God's given path. Study of God's Word seems more important than what various religious men have written; but 'to each his own' as the saying goes.

The world's philosophical and religious ideas is irrelevant to our God. Let us concentrate on biblical truth and serving our God for man's everlasting good ---"the time is short". If one should get saved (as John 3:16; John 14; Romans 8; etc. ) that one should be urgently helping others come to Jesus Christ while the door of salvation is yet open (and even sooner some of us will be quickly taken in death).

Soon, I feel sure this age of "grace" will come to a close when the Church is called up to Heaven (known as a 'rapture'), in the "...twinkling of an eye" suddenly and then terrible judgment will fall on this world. Many who were busy after various ideas and ideologies will be left in shock. I personally just cannot appreciate going beyond Holy Scripture after religious ideas. Keep looking up!

If you know the answer to 1 + 1 than thank a philosopher.

Daniel Marsh · Mar 7, 2021

Shane R said:
I am working on a book on the subject. I'm writing a Sunday school/small group manual on the Shepherd. Probably also an essay explaining why I think it should be studied by the layman.

Orthodox Anglican Church The Orthodox Anglican Church - North America | Proclaiming Christ in Word and Sacrament

Don't overlook the Irish and Canadian books.

Looking forward to when it is published.

Daniel Marsh · Mar 7, 2021

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Manuscript information on extrabiblical writings?

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