In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

kiwimac · Jan 19, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
So you disagree with God's word and replace it with your opinion?

Not at all. I simply disagree with your exegesis of the so-called "clobber passages."

OzSpen · Jan 20, 2021

SilverBear said:
you cited the ten commandments and then asked about wanting to live in a society that has no boundaries about false witness.

Well conversion therapy is built on lies. How OK are you with that?

SB,

To the contrary, conversion therapy is built on biblical Christianity. Is Matt 28:18-20 not in your Bible?

How about 1 Cor 6:9-11 (ESV):

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practise homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

There were Christian converts in the Corinthian church who practised some of the sins in this list. They no long live in those sins be have been converted to Christ. Paul preached conversion messages/therapy and so will I.

Oz

OzSpen · Jan 20, 2021

rjs330 said:
Yeah, I don't think it's a disease either. You can't "catch" homosexuality.

Homosexuality, the desire to be with the same sex, is a passion. And the Bible says it's a vile passion.

The concern is that the government would try and tell the church they cannot say that to their members. And it seems that there certainly is that inference in the law and the possibility exists they could do just that.

rjs,

I'm not at all surprised that Victorian Premier, Daniel Andrews, and the Labor Party which he leads will promote the LGBTQ+ agenda as Andrews and the Labor Party in that State are from the far left of the Labor Party. You won't hear that on ABC News programs in Australia.

My view from passages in Romans 1 and 1 Cor 6 is that the practise of homosexuality is a sin that requires repentance and seeking forgiveness from the Lord.

The idea it has a social etiology and is a sexual orientation had driven much of the public discussion Down Under. Biblically, I reject that cause as it is contrary to Romans 1:18-32 (ESV) and 1 Cor 6:9-11 (ESV).

This view is confirmed by the OT where Leviticus 20:13 confirms it is a sin that requires capital punishment. I don't expect such would be the case if homosexuality were a sexual orientation.

Here in Australia, the mass media slavishly portrays homosexuality as a sexual orientation and it is unethical to try to engage in conversion therapy. My home state of Queensland in 2020 legislated against conversion therapy. Of the Qld law it has been stated:

“Religious or spiritual interventions, such as prayer or religious guidance or teaching, are not prohibited by the Bill, even if these practices aim to change or suppress a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity. Subject to the comments below, it is unlikely that the actions of a Christian charity, pastor or school chaplain would be considered conversion therapy for the purposes of the Bill (Eternity).

Oz

OzSpen · Jan 20, 2021

Paidiske said:
This is actually misleading, since the laws don't affect preaching at all.

Paidiske,

The laws in Qld condemn conversion therapy but they state:

Religious or spiritual interventions, such as prayer or religious guidance or teaching, are not prohibited by the Bill, even if these practices aim to change or suppress a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity. Subject to the comments below, it is unlikely that the actions of a Christian charity, pastor or school chaplain would be considered conversion therapy for the purposes of the Bill (Eternity).

In your church would you preach on Romans 1:18-32; 1 Cor 6:9-11, and the OT view against homosexual relationships?

Oz

OzSpen · Jan 20, 2021

rjs330 said:
Yeah, I don't think it's a disease either. You can't "catch" homosexuality.

Homosexuality, the desire to be with the same sex, is a passion. And the Bible says it's a vile passion.

The concern is that the government would try and tell the church they cannot say that to their members. And it seems that there certainly is that inference in the law and the possibility exists they could do just that.

rjs,

Would you please quote what the proposed law states and its possible application to what is preached in evangelical churches? Please provide a link to your sources.

Oz

OzSpen · Jan 20, 2021

Paidiske said:
In converting to Christ, a person must commit to sexual morality. That would mean not having sex outside marriage.

But committing to celibacy is not the same thing as "becoming straight." Leaving aside the possibility of God's direct intervention (which is a rare experience even for gay people who come to faith in Christ, and I have known many), humans have no way to change their underlying neurology; a straight person can't change and become homosexual, and a homosexual person can't change and become straight, and there is no therapy that can effect that change. All each can do is commit to live morally with the particular neurology and set of temptations that they experience.

I am standing up for a law that will protect vulnerable young people from unethical and damaging pseudo-therapeutic practices. That's my concern; that we avoid traumatising people who already have heavy enough burdens.

I view sexual orientation and gender identity as matters of development; that is, a "switch" was flicked one way or the other, chemically, whilst that person was still in the womb and their brain was beginning to form. That accords with the best understanding of the science that I have been able to glean.

The question then for Christians becomes, how do we live with that developmental - for want of a better word - divergence?

So to the extent that I would never say to anyone who had some developmental difference that they are "broken," or that they have a personal "shortcoming," I would not say that to a homosexual or transgendered person either. I would, however, be open to exploring with them what faithful living looks like in light of their particular situation.

Paidiske,

So are you saying you do not support the Bible's definition of homosexual acts as sinful behaviour that need to be repented of?

Oz

FutureAndAHope · Jan 20, 2021

OzSpen said:
rjs,

Would you please quote what the proposed law states and its possible application to what is preached in evangelical churches? Please provide a link to your sources.

Oz

The problem with the bill is that by definition it states:

(1)(a) to eliminate so far as possible the occurrence of change or suppression practices in Victoria; and

....

(2)(b) to affirm that a person's sexual orientation or gender identity is not broken and in need of fixing; and (c) to affirm that no sexual orientation or gender identity constitutes a disorder, disease, illness, deficiency or shortcoming; and

(1) In this Act, a change or suppression practice means a practice or conduct directed towards a person, whether with or without the person's consent— (a) on the basis of the person's sexual orientation or gender identity; and (b) for the purpose of— (i) changing or suppressing the sexual orientation or gender identity of the person; or (ii) inducing the person to change or suppress their sexual orientation or gender identity.

Why is this bill, in my opinion so dangerous to the church? It makes law the false idea that homosexuality is not a "shortcoming", and it states that "gender identity is not broken and in need of fixing". The bible presents the opposite idea, as such is opposed to the law.

Note the law applies to "conduct", not just practices. Illegal, conduct under the bill, is inducing someone to change, could be a sermon of repentance, or the act of trying to change or suppress gender.

The true church, those who obey, and teach the words of the bible, will naturally fall foul to this law. For they are inducing, and advocating for a change of gender identity.

Taken from the legislation https://content.legislation.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-12/591143bab1.pdf

SilverBear · Jan 20, 2021

OzSpen said:
SB,

To the contrary, conversion therapy is built on biblical Christianity. Is Matt 28:18-20 not in your Bible?

How about 1 Cor 6:9-11 (ESV):

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practise homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

There were Christian converts in the Corinthian church who practised some of the sins in this list. They no long live in those sins be have been converted to Christ. Paul preached conversion messages/therapy and so will I.

Oz

quoting irrelevant passages doesn't change the lie that conversion therapy is safe to truth.

Conversion therapy lies when it says that people can and do change orientations
it lies when it says orientation is a choice.
it leis when it says there is research to back it up
it lies when it makes bizarre claims about homosexuality
conversion therapists lie when they say they just want to help people

SilverBear · Jan 20, 2021

OzSpen said:
rjs,

I'm not at all surprised that Victorian Premier, Daniel Andrews, and the Labor Party which he leads will promote the LGBTQ+ agenda as Andrews and the Labor Party in that State are from the far left of the Labor Party. You won't hear that on ABC News programs in Australia.

My view from passages in Romans 1 and 1 Cor 6 is that the practise of homosexuality is a sin that requires repentance and seeking forgiveness from the Lord.

1 Cor 6 doesn't actually say anything about homosexuality. The inclusion of homosexuality is based on an unsupported translation of a Greek word that has no actual translation. Historically that same word has been translated to condemn masturbation, kidnapping, the use of prostitutes and father daughter incest.

This view is confirmed by the OT where Leviticus 20:13 confirms it is a sin that requires capital punishment. I don't expect such would be the case if homosexuality were a sexual orientation.

ho many homosexuals have you persoanlly killed?

Here in Australia, the mass media slavishly portrays homosexuality as a sexual orientation

you mean they tell the truth.

and it is unethical to try to engage in conversion therapy.

they also say it's unethical to force feed someone drain cleaner

PloverWing · Jan 20, 2021

OzSpen said:
To the contrary, conversion therapy is built on biblical Christianity. Is Matt 28:18-20 not in your Bible?

Matthew 28 does not teach us to engage in the kind of physical and psychological violence that is found in conversion therapy.

rjs330 · Jan 20, 2021

kiwimac said:
Not at all. I simply disagree with your exegesis of the so-called "clobber passages."

Let's upack that for a bit. Let's look at one of those clobber passages.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: - Romans 1:26 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 1:26 - American Standard Version

Exigete that for us so we can see where your thoughts lie on this.

rjs330 · Jan 20, 2021

OzSpen said:
rjs,

Would you please quote what the proposed law states and its possible application to what is preached in evangelical churches? Please provide a link to your sources.

Oz

Rather than repeat what has already been stated by others who have concerns (see other posts that quote the passages in the law that are a concern), I just know the push to diminish the churches stance on homosexuality.

Those passages in the law are concerning. I don't know it it will be used to stop preaching on the subject of the sin of homosexuality or not. It just seems like it's not clear enough that it cannot be used by someone who has the desire to do so.

The fact that the law isn't simple enough to just say you can't use conversion therapy, then it wouldn't be a concern. But the other language contained therein, gives one pause.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 20, 2021

PloverWing said:
Matthew 28 does not teach us to engage in the kind of physical and psychological violence that is found in conversion therapy.

There is no physical or psychological violence found in modern conversion therapy. If there was like I said before it would be one isolated guy, in a cult somewhere. The kinds of mainstream conversion "type" therapy at worst would be an accountability group like AA.

Sure some gays claim damage from this, but that is because they "don't want to change", and feel pressure from the bible and church to change.

But there are many sinners who would be the same if we had a group to help with inappropriate content addiction if someone went there "not of their free will", they may claim the group hurt them. It is not that a inappropriate content addiction group is wrong, neither is it that conversion therapy in its current form is wrong.

rjs330 · Jan 20, 2021

SilverBear said:
1 Cor 6 doesn't actually say anything about homosexuality. The inclusion of homosexuality is based on an unsupported translation of a Greek word that has no actual translation. Historically that same word has been translated to condemn masturbation, kidnapping, the use of prostitutes and father daughter incest.

ho many homosexuals have you persoanlly killed?

you mean they tell the truth.

they also say it's unethical to force feed someone drain cleaner

Actually the word used in the verse in Corinthians is
arsenokoitai
meaning man bed or men being with men in a sexual fashion. In this passage Paul is referring to the prohibition of men lying with men prohibited in the OT. It's a reaffirmation of the sin of homosexuality. Paul's teaching on this subject is affirmed from and in Romans 1. The word in a combination word with koitia meaning of coitus.

And specifically in this passage it is male sex. And refers to the act and not the person in a broad sense. So it would apply to any male on male sex and not just homosexuals. A bisexual man having sex with a male is forbidden here as well as male on male pedophilia.

So the narrow term would be male homosexual sex but more broadly all male on male sex. This substantiates the idea that all male on male sex is equally sinful and that homosexual sex is not the worst thing ever. Cause this passage lists other sins as well. All of things listed here are sinful acts and should not be practiced by anyone claiming the name of Christ.

rjs330 · Jan 20, 2021

PloverWing said:
Matthew 28 does not teach us to engage in the kind of physical and psychological violence that is found in conversion therapy.

Is there any kind of conversion therapy that is not physically violent?

And what of conversion therapy is psychologically violent?

Can there be conversion therapy that is not psychologically violent?

Paidiske · Jan 20, 2021

OzSpen said:
Paidiske,

In your church would you preach on Romans 1:18-32; 1 Cor 6:9-11, and the OT view against homosexual relationships?

Oz

I preach the Scriptures, all of them, and don't avoid particular passages.

OzSpen said:
Paidiske,

So are you saying you do not support the Bible's definition of homosexual acts as sinful behaviour that need to be repented of?

Oz

I am saying that I distinguish between acts and orientation, and see orientation as an artefact of neurological development.

FutureAndAHope said:
Note the law applies to "conduct", not just practices.

It has already been pointed out to you in this thread that it's conduct towards a particular person, which preaching is not.

FutureAndAHope said:
There is no physical or psychological violence found in modern conversion therapy.

That's simply not true. Anyone who's sat with and listened to the accounts of those who've been subject to these practices know how deeply traumatic they are.

Paidiske · Jan 20, 2021

rjs330 said:
Can there be conversion therapy that is not psychologically violent?

No. Trying to force this kind of change on someone is always going to be psychologically violent.

rjs330 · Jan 20, 2021

SilverBear said:
quoting irrelevant passages doesn't change the lie that conversion therapy is safe to truth.

Conversion therapy lies when it says that people can and do change orientations
it lies when it says orientation is a choice.
it leis when it says there is research to back it up
it lies when it makes bizarre claims about homosexuality
conversion therapists lie when they say they just want to help people

There are people who claim differently.

rjs330 · Jan 20, 2021

Paidiske said:
No. Trying to force this kind of change on someone is always going to be psychologically violent.

I can see where "forcing" this kind of change in someone could be psychologically violent. But what if they are desiring this?

I would like to reiterate I don't know much about conversion therapy or the different kinds of conversion therapy. It certainly sounds like there are some that are physically violent, and some that include yelling and screaming at someone which aren't good.

But it sounds like some may be more like an AA type of therapy or very low key stuff. Is that true or are all of them physically violent or contain yelling, belittling verbal assaultive behaviors?

Philip_B · Jan 20, 2021

rjs330 said:
arsenokoitai

There are a some scholars who are less than convinced that the translation of this word as attested in the RSV, and would suggest that the subject was more about the abuse of sexual power as might be understood in paedophilia. It would certainly seem that your exegesis lets lesbians off the hook completely.

Please note I am not making the argument, but rather acknowledging that there is an argument. I do think that it is a difficult word to translate.

From a New Testament perspective this is a largely Pauline teaching. The canonical gospels seem to have no direct teaching from Jesus on the subject, but rather the positive affirmation of the ideal of marital fidelity. arsenokoitai is not a word that the NT ascribes to Jesus, and as far as we know he never used the word. Jesus did however affirm the preciousness of children and spoke of them as a model for the simplicity of faith.

I do not want to discount Paul, however I do want the words and pattern of ministry of Jesus to ring louder.

In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

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