Why do many Christians not understand this?

concretecamper

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Why do many Christians not understand that it is by God's grace that we are saved through our faith? Why do they understand that our faith is not of our own doing but that it is a gift of God? Not by our works because our works are as righteous as filthy rags
The Catholic Church teaches through Trent. It is based on scripture and Tradition. Some who call themselves Christians do not follow scripture.

If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.

If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.

If anyone says that man’s free will moved and aroused by God, by assenting to God’s call and action, in no way cooperates toward disposing and preparing itself to obtain the grace of justification, that it cannot refuse its assent if it wishes, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive, let him be anathema.
 
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That wasn’t the case here. These Galatians we’re trying to be justified by the law. They were trying to attain righteousness thru obedience to the law rather than understanding that they are already justified by their faith in Christ’s sacrifice. Once we are in Christ we don’t have to try to attain justification we already have it as long as we remain in Him. This means that we love and obey Him.

For example, in Acts 10:28, Peter referred to a law that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles, however, this law is not found anywhere in the Mosaic Law, and is therefore a man-made law. It was this law that Peter was obeying in Galatians 2:11-16 when he stopped visiting associating with the Gentiles, and by doing so, he was giving credibility to those who were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified, which is why Paul rebuked him and reiterated that we are justified by faith, not by works of the law. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Law is of faith, and Paul directly contrasted it with works of the law. I will agree that the Galatians were already justified through faith, but had begun listing to those who were saying that they needed to obey works of the law in order to become justified. Those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and he walked in obedience to the Mosaic Law.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Because that is what Paul is referring to in Ephesians 2:8-9. He is speaking against Works Alone Salvationism that did not include God’s grace.

Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.
I understand that. What I'm trying to understand is how it applies to the subject discussed. Are you saying that therefore, 'partial works' salvation is Biblical, since 'works alone salvation' is not? I thought the discussion had come around to, in effect at this point, monergism vs synergism.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Even when the law was first given to Moses, there wasn't a single person who was required to obey all of them, and not even Jesus followed the ones in regard to having a period or to giving birth.
So where, or how, do you draw the line between sin and obedience? Also, is compliance to the law the same as obedience to Christ?
 
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Navair2

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I understand that. What I'm trying to understand is how it applies to the subject discussed. Are you saying that therefore, 'partial works' salvation is Biblical, since 'works alone salvation' is not? I thought the discussion had come around to, in effect at this point, monergism vs synergism.
Good works don't save...
They are the evidence of God's work in and through us, as believers in Jesus Christ.

Just we are justified, or shown to be justified, by our faith... which is the evidence of His work of grace in us ( Hebrews 11:1 )...we are also shown to be justified, by God ( Romans 8:33 ), by those good works ( James 2:14-28 ) that He has ordained that we walk in ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
 
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concretecamper

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Good works don't save...
They are the evidence of God's work in and through us, as believers in Jesus Christ.
the best philanthropist may do good works, even if he is a satanist. Good works alone mean nothing
 
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So where, or how, do you draw the line between sin and obedience?

The standard of what sin is are the things that are against God's nature and God commands instruct us how to testify about His nature, which is why it is a sin to disobey God. For example, God's righteous laws teach us how to testify about His righteousness, so it is a sin when we bear false witness against God by doing what is unrighteous in disobedience to God's laws.

Also, is compliance to the law the same as obedience to Christ?

Indeed, Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). Furthermore, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14). In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not depart from what the Father has taught. Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so obeying the Mosaic Law testifies about who he is (John 5:39-40).
 
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Navair2

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Agreed. So you are a monergist?
Something like that, yes.
I get called a "Calvinist" by many, although "Particular Baptist" or "Calvinistic Baptist" would be the closest.
 
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Why do many Christians not understand that it is by God's grace that we are saved through our faith? Why do they understand that our faith is not of our own doing but that it is a gift of God? Not by our works because our works are as righteous as filthy rags?

Why do they not understand that to accept this teaching does not make them robots nor does it nullify God's grace but instead enhances it a billion times fold? Why do they not understand that it is God that needs all the glory, not mankind because without God, we are nothing.

Why do people not understand that without God's sovereignty we are nothing? Or that there is not a single thing that happens that goes outside of God's sovereign will and God is sovereign over all?

Sound familiar? It should and not a single word I said did I make up on my own but was Holy Scripture. Because I just quoted one of the most popular pieces of scripture that Paul wrote and mentioned several sections of the Bible including what the Prophet Isaiah prophesied all those years ago. Because, Christians the world over love to quote these verses to say that we aren't saved by our works (which is true) but, they also ignore the rest of what Paul and the prophets wrote. Let me explain and highlight Ephesians 2:8-9 for people.


Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Yes, it is your faith that saves you. There's no twisting or disagreement here. But your faith does not come from you, it comes from the grace and mercy of God. This faith is more precious than gold, because it comes from God. This faith will never waver and will never go away, because it comes from and is kept by God.

Don't believe me? Read what Paul, Peter, Jesus, and the writer of Hebrews said about our faith and about our salvation. Study it and take its meaning to heart because, everything I said is all there. Especially the Apostle Peter who said that we are a chosen possession and God's forever. Born of not corruptible seed, but incorruptible.

Yet, it's a frequent belief in Christianty that Eternal Security is a doctrine of the devil. Why? Because the Apostles talked about it and they're of the devil? That's essentially what they're saying. Its commonly taught that the basic idea of the reformed theology is from the Devil as well. Why? Because Paul is of the devil? Be careful what you're saying here. I didn't write these things, the Apostles and Prophets did. The apostle Paul may have had a shady past but Christ said he was chosen by God and everything that comes from his mouth is true, even Peter said so. I'll say it again. We are saved by Grace through faith. This faith is not of ourselves but is a gift from God and that faith will last now and forever. Amen!
You did add authentic Scripture and well accepted interpretations of that Scripture but perhaps you added a bit of you too? Are you trying to say people try to take credit for yheir faith? I'm with you we owe all to Christ. I'm not for any of us acting like we deserve credit for God's doings in our lives.

At the same time, we have certain responsibilities in our response to God's work in us. Maybe people get arrogant in their response to accept salvation and suddenly think they deserved to be saved? I'm not sure if this is what you are getting at?

Faith is a gift but it can grow according to one's response to the work of the Lord in his/her life. The work is the Lord's. Faith is from the Lord. Still, our response is on is. Different responses to the Lord come with different consconsequences: blessings or stagnation (at best). Those who hardly acknowledge the Lord can't expect to grow. Those who strive to honor the Lord can expect good things (though we dont pick our blessings necessarily--He does).

I dont know His judgment scales but he is fair and good. Maybe it is easy to get arrogant at what God has done, or to be jealous at want God does in the lives of others? Ot balances out though. No need to arrogance or jealously at what God does for us or others.

Looking at 1 Corinthians 12:28 NASB
And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third, teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, and various kinds of tongues.

So the apostles were given awesome abilities to start up the church but their position kind of meant automatic martyrdom. Prophets are associated with rejection...etc...and on down the list. I believe this list should not be seen as just an honor ranking system but also as a sacrifice ranking system. It all balances out. God has a thing for sacrifice. Credit comes at a cost to where you are too busy sacrificing in your gifts to boast in my opinion. In sum, it is about God's work... but also our response.

Sorry if I misunderstood your post and got carried away.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The standard of what sin is are the things that are against God's nature and God commands instruct us how to testify about His nature, which is why it is a sin to disobey God. For example, God's righteous laws teach us how to testify about His righteousness, so it is a sin when we bear false witness against God by doing what is unrighteous in disobedience to God's laws.

I hope this doesn't mean that a 'hidden sin' is ok. I don't really expect you think so, as more than humans are witnessing our lives, not to mention that in the end everything will be exposed, but....

Anyhow, yes, I agree concerning sin as a testimony concerning God, putting it more like this --that sin is claiming that our own Creator is irrelevant and a liar. And it is off topic, perhaps, but this is the one thing that bruised Christ's heel, yet he has planned it that way for the sake of his own Glory and praise, and for his plan for the Elect --the Bride of Christ.

I asked: Also, is compliance to the law the same as obedience to Christ?
And you answered:
Indeed, Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, so he would have still taught full obedience to it by example even if he had said nothing, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). Furthermore, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand (Matthew 4:17-23) and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is an integral part of the Gospel, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14). In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not depart from what the Father has taught. Jesus is the exact expression of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so obeying the Mosaic Law testifies about who he is (John 5:39-40).

My reason for asking, is because of the difference between mere compliance, as a work by the flesh, and the kind of thing God wants --the walk by faith. Do you see no difference? One who has not Christ yet following the law, is not obeying, but merely complying.

However, I agree completely with the notion that Christ obeyed as human, not so easily as some suppose, and thus, ironically, proved he was God. Like someone else on here has said, he in fact did everything he did here as human, by the same power that drives the Elect.

Finally, I note, you have mentioned that even Christ did not obey the commands that were irrelevant to his case, such as happens by the fact that he was not female. I am not sure, then, where you draw the lines for what is relevant to those who are not Jews, or do you think we must all live like Jews as far as all the requirements for, for example, cleanliness --must a Christian female abide by the laws of cleanliness, etc? Is circumcision of males abiding by the law?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Something like that, yes.
I get called a "Calvinist" by many, although "Particular Baptist" or "Calvinistic Baptist" would be the closest.
That sounds familiar to me. I did not know I had come to possess a theology that was so much like Calvinism, until I heard it taught as "Reformed Theology" by people who agreed with me. (As an old friend says, "I love it when old dead guys who wrote good books agree with me." I call myself Reformed because it makes it quicker for those who agree with me to understand thoughts I don't express very well.)
 
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Navair2

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That sounds familiar to me. I did not know I had come to possess a theology that was so much like Calvinism, until I heard it taught as "Reformed Theology" by people who agreed with me.
I understand.

Myself, I tend to shy away from the "Reformed" label, as to me, that was John Calvin's, Theodore Beza's and John Knox's teachings...
They included infant baptism, a-millennialism and other things that I do not see in the Bible.
But when it comes to how God saves / saved ( Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Revelation 17:8 ) people, I agree with "TULIP".

Nice to meet you, Mark.:)

Dave.
 
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There seems to be a common misconception that Christians who believe that they are saved by faith and not by works will use this as a licence for licentiousness whereas those who emphasise the importance of works won't. But when one looks at the lives lived by those in each tradition I don't see such a stark difference. The problem with the works emphasis approach is where do you draw the line? Jesus taught that we can sin with our thoughts as well as actions. Wouldn't there be a temptation to draw the line so your life is on the saved side of it?

Although "faith" is not trivial to define it seems to me a lot easier than drawing up a classified list of sins and counting them up all the time. Does how long you live matter? Someone who lives into their 90s has more chance to sin than someone who dies in their teens.
 
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Why do many Christians not understand that it is by God's grace that we are saved through our faith? Why do they understand that our faith is not of our own doing but that it is a gift of God? Not by our works because our works are as righteous as filthy rags?

Why do they not understand that to accept this teaching does not make them robots nor does it nullify God's grace but instead enhances it a billion times fold? Why do they not understand that it is God that needs all the glory, not mankind because without God, we are nothing.

Why do people not understand that without God's sovereignty we are nothing? Or that there is not a single thing that happens that goes outside of God's sovereign will and God is sovereign over all?

Sound familiar? It should and not a single word I said did I make up on my own but was Holy Scripture. Because I just quoted one of the most popular pieces of scripture that Paul wrote and mentioned several sections of the Bible including what the Prophet Isaiah prophesied all those years ago. Because, Christians the world over love to quote these verses to say that we aren't saved by our works (which is true) but, they also ignore the rest of what Paul and the prophets wrote. Let me explain and highlight Ephesians 2:8-9 for people.


Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Yes, it is your faith that saves you. There's no twisting or disagreement here. But your faith does not come from you, it comes from the grace and mercy of God. This faith is more precious than gold, because it comes from God. This faith will never waver and will never go away, because it comes from and is kept by God.

Don't believe me? Read what Paul, Peter, Jesus, and the writer of Hebrews said about our faith and about our salvation. Study it and take its meaning to heart because, everything I said is all there. Especially the Apostle Peter who said that we are a chosen possession and God's forever. Born of not corruptible seed, but incorruptible.

Yet, it's a frequent belief in Christianty that Eternal Security is a doctrine of the devil. Why? Because the Apostles talked about it and they're of the devil? That's essentially what they're saying. Its commonly taught that the basic idea of the reformed theology is from the Devil as well. Why? Because Paul is of the devil? Be careful what you're saying here. I didn't write these things, the Apostles and Prophets did. The apostle Paul may have had a shady past but Christ said he was chosen by God and everything that comes from his mouth is true, even Peter said so. I'll say it again. We are saved by Grace through faith. This faith is not of ourselves but is a gift from God and that faith will last now and forever. Amen!
I chalk it up to self pride. Innately, we seem to be born with a desire to be responsible for our own salvation. God warned Cain but it fell on death ears. The Tower of Babel is also an allegory for man trying to achieve heaven through his own works.

I am an example of this, in my younger years but thankfully, God revealed my sin and humbled me. God gave me his Holy Spirit and taught me to trust in that Spirit.

Letting go of our pride is the hardest part of our walk with the Father.
 
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Soyeong

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I hope this doesn't mean that a 'hidden sin' is ok. I don't really expect you think so, as more than humans are witnessing our lives, not to mention that in the end everything will be exposed, but....

Anyhow, yes, I agree concerning sin as a testimony concerning God, putting it more like this --that sin is claiming that our own Creator is irrelevant and a liar. And it is off topic, perhaps, but this is the one thing that bruised Christ's heel, yet he has planned it that way for the sake of his own Glory and praise, and for his plan for the Elect --the Bride of Christ.

Indeed, I was not suggesting that hidden sin is ok. Any time that we do something that expresses God's nature, we are showing who God is regardless of whether anyone is watching, and when we claim to be His follower while acting against His nature, then we are misrepresenting who He is. For example, Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, so when we keep the Sabbath holy, we are testifying about who he is, but when we break the Sabbath, we are bearing false witness against him.

I asked: Also, is compliance to the law the same as obedience to Christ?
And you answered:


My reason for asking, is because of the difference between mere compliance, as a work by the flesh, and the kind of thing God wants --the walk by faith. Do you see no difference? One who has not Christ yet following the law, is not obeying, but merely complying.

However, I agree completely with the notion that Christ obeyed as human, not so easily as some suppose, and thus, ironically, proved he was God. Like someone else on here has said, he in fact did everything he did here as human, by the same power that drives the Elect.

Sorry, I missed the nuance of your question and I would agree that compliance to the law is not the same as obedience to Christ. The goal of the Mosaic Law is to teach us how to experientially know Christ through living in a way that expresses or testifies about his nature, but people can obey the law while missing its goal. In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge, so they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as though righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that they search the Scriptures because they think that in them they will find eternal life, and they testify about him, yet they refuse to come to him that they might have life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter eternal life, then obey the commandments, so eternal life can be found in the Scriptures and the Pharisees were correct to search for it there, but they needed to recognize that the goal of the law is to teach us how to experientially know Christ and to come enter into a relationship for eternal life. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting the weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness, so they were obeying the law while missing that the goal of the law is to teach us how to express those aspects of Christ's nature, which is the way to experientially know him. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who were workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so again they were obeying the law while missing its goal of knowing Christ. In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been in the same boat where he had been keeping the law, but without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and counted it all as rubbish.

Finally, I note, you have mentioned that even Christ did not obey the commands that were irrelevant to his case, such as happens by the fact that he was not female. I am not sure, then, where you draw the lines for what is relevant to those who are not Jews, or do you think we must all live like Jews as far as all the requirements for, for example, cleanliness --must a Christian female abide by the laws of cleanliness, etc? Is circumcision of males abiding by the law?

God ways are the ways that He acts or expresses His nature, and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as being instructions for how to walk in God's ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others, so the reason that God gave the law was not to teach the nations about who the Jews are, but in order to equip the Jews to be a light and a blessing to the world through testifying about who God is. In Deuteronomy 4:5-8, the intended reaction of the nations seeing Israel's obedience to the Mosaic Law was to marvel at how great and wise God is, so in other words, the law was given as a tool to evangelize Gentiles. If the Mosaic Law teaches how to testify about God's nature and we should live in a way that testifies about God's nature, then we should seek to obey the Mosaic to Law to the greatest extent that we can.

For example, in 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, such as refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45), so following those laws is testifying about God's holiness. However, laws that are in regard to temple practice should only be followed when there is a temple in which to practice them. Paul only spoke against circumcision for the wrong reasons, so he should not be mistaken as speaking against obeying God as if he had the authority to countermand God.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I understand.

Myself, I tend to shy away from the "Reformed" label, as to me, that was John Calvin's, Theodore Beza's and John Knox's teachings...
They included infant baptism, a-millennialism and other things that I do not see in the Bible.
But when it comes to how God saves / saved ( Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Revelation 17:8 ) people, I agree with "TULIP".

Nice to meet you, Mark.:)

Dave.
I tend toward Reformed Baptist, if I must choose one. I like infant baptism only for the simple notion of the authority of the father in the family. It is not considered by any Reformed people that I know to be salvific.

TULIP yes. Saved, and Kept.
 
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Why do many Christians not understand that it is by God's grace that we are saved through our faith? Why do they understand that our faith is not of our own doing but that it is a gift of God? Not by our works because our works are as righteous as filthy rags?
Do you believe the parable of the Wedding Banquet in Matthew 22 was spoken by Jesus to help us understand salvation?

In that parable the King sent his servants out to invite all to the Wedding Banquet (so the gift was offered to all), but many of their own volition made excuses and chose not to attend. If you can choose to reject one gift (wedding feast / salvation), then you can choose to harden your heart and reject another gift (faith).

Hebrews 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:
“Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”​
 
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