How many laws are too many?

HARK! · Jan 19, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Really? Look a little harder.

How about you just post the verse that backs up your unfounded statement.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 19, 2021

HARK! said:
How about you just post the verse that backs up your unfounded statement.

Already did, are you reading the posts shared with you dear friend? (post # 120)

HARK! · Jan 19, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
No problem...

Hebrews 8:5 WHO SERVE TO THE EXAMPLE AND SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.

Hebrews 10:1 FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Colossians 2:17 WHICH ARE A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; BUT THE BODY IS OF CHRIST

Your welcome.

This all points to the future. The future isn't here yet.

HARK! · Jan 19, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
You did not answer my question I asked you, is the new covenant YHWH's Word?

I did answer your question, in the post that you quoted. Maybe you don't understand that Yahshua and the Prophets were speaking for YHWH.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 19, 2021

HARK! said:
This all points to the future. The future isn't here yet.

No it doesn't unless you believe Gods sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29 in His Son is not once and for all and God's son is not our great high Priest in the heavenly Sanctuary which the Lord pitched and not man. I suggest you read *Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-22 which discuss the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins in the earthly Sanctuary and how they are now fulfilled and continued in Christ under the new covenant promise to which they pointed to.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 19, 2021

HARK! said:
I did answer your question, in the post that you quoted. Maybe you don't understand that Yahshua and the Prophets were speaking for YHWH.

You did not answer my question I asked you, which was "is the new covenant YHWH's Word?" I believe what Gods' Word teaches and that is that the "shadow laws" of the old covenant for remission of sins are fulfilled in the new covenant to that to which they pointed to - Christ, and are continued in Him under the new covenant. No more sacrifices for sin, No more Levitical Priesthood, no more earthly Sanctuary of the old covenant which was only a copy of the heavenly.

HARK! · Jan 19, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
No it doesn't unless you believe Gods sacrifice for the sins...

I'm just going by what the verses you presented actually say, in plain English. I'm not interested in performing a feat of acrobatics, in attempt to dance my way around the obvious.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 19, 2021

HARK! said: ↑ This all points to the future. The future isn't here yet.

Ok then show me where *Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-22 is in the future and not now under the new covenant as you claim? You do know these chapters in Hebrews are referring to Christs death and sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29 and His new ministration as our great High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands right and what this now means under the new covenant made from better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6?

HARK! · Jan 19, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Ok then show me where

LOL! Let's not start back peddling and changing the subject.

Here is what I was responding to:

LoveGodsWord said:
Hebrews 8:5 WHO SERVE TO THE EXAMPLE AND SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.

We are not in heaven yet. That's the future.

LoveGodsWord said:
Hebrews 10:1 FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Future tense.

LoveGodsWord said:
Colossians 2:17 WHICH ARE A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; BUT THE BODY IS OF CHRIST

Future tense.

I hope this helps.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 19, 2021

HARK! said:
LOL! Let's not start back peddling and changing the subject.

Here is what I was responding to:

We are not in heaven yet. That's the future.

Future tense.

Future tense.

I hope this helps.

Not really dear fiend. Read the context your of the scriptures your quoting. They are saying that the "shadow laws" for remission of sins are shadows of things to come in context to what has come which is Christ (present tense application). Your trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say. Christ has come! Context is the laws for remission of sins of the old covenant being fulfilled in Christ who has come!

Let's add all the context back you leaving out that shows present tense...

Hebrews 8:1-6
[1], Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: WE HAVE (present tense indicative) SUCH AN HIGH PRIEST, WHO IS SET ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE THRONE OF THE MAJESTY IN THE HEAVENS

Note: we have (present tense now) an High Priest who is set on the right hand of the majesty of heaven

[2], A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
[3], For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: why it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Note: we have (present tense now) an High Priest who is set on the right hand of the majesty of heaven

[4], For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Note: we have (present tense now) an High Priest who is set on the right hand of the majesty of heaven

[5], Who serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.

Note: we have (present tense now) an High Priest who is set on the right hand of the majesty of heaven the old covenant Levitcal Priesthood and laws for remission of sins are shadows of heavenly things

[6], BUT NOW HAS HE OBTAINED A MORE EXCELLENT MINISTRY, BY HOW MUCH ALSO HE IS THE MEDIATOR OF A BETTER COVENANT, WHICH WAS ESTABLISHED ON BETTER PROMISES.

Note: we have (present tense now) an High Priest who is set on the right hand of the majesty of heaven v1 and here in v6 but "NOW" has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which "WAS established" on better promises. "WAS established" is past tense this means the new covenant is not future but already established

Now is not future!

................

Hebrews 10:1-10

[1], FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, AND NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THE THINGS, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR CONTINUALLY MAKE THE COMERS THEREUNTO PERFECT

Note: subject matter is old covenant laws for remission of sins being “shadows of things to come” and not the reality or image of what they point to…

[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Note: If the old testament “shadow laws” for remission of sins where the reality then they would not have ceased to be offered…

[3], BUT IN THOSE SACRIFICES THERE IS A REMEMBRANCE AGAIN MADE OF SINS EVERY YEAR (Yom Kippur).
[4], FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Note it is not possible that the old covenant “shadow laws” for remission of sin to take away sin

[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me:

Note: God’s true sacrifice for sin being foretold in the Torah as being Christ to who the “shadow laws” for remission of sins point to

[6], In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you have had no pleasure.
[7], THEN SAID I, SEE, I COME (IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME,) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.
[8], Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you would not, neither had pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[9], THEN SAID HE, SEE, I COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD. HE TAKES AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.
[10], BY THE WHICH WILL WE ARE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST ONCE FOR ALL.

Note: the first covenant is now taken away that the second covenant can be established. We are now under the new covenant we no longer rely on the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin but the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all who has died for the sins of the world.

Now is not future…

.................

Colossians 2:17 NIV These are a shadow of the things that were to come; THE REALITY HOWEVER IS FOUND IN CHRIST

Colossians 2:11-18 is the context here that is all these things relating to the laws shadows of "circumcision" baptism, meat and drink offerings, new moons and sabbaths in the Feast days *Colossians 2:11-17. That is these "shadow laws" under the old covenant were all shadows of things to come, pointing to "the body of Christ" {v17}" which casts the shadow. It is the body that casts the shadow and the "shadows" only point to the body [Christ] in the new covenant. See full post in post # 97

Hope this helps.

HARK! · Jan 19, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Not really dear fiend. Read the context your of the scriptures your quoting. They are saying that the "shadow laws" for remission of sins are shadows of things to come in context to what has come which is Christ (present tense application)
Your trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say. Christ has come! Context is the laws for remission of sins of the old covenant being fulfilled in Christ who has come!

Let's add all the context back you leaving out that shows present tense...

Hebrews 8:1-6
[1], Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: WE HAVE SUCH AN HIGH PRIEST, WHO IS SET ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE THRONE OF THE MAJESTY IN THE HEAVENS

Note: we have (present tense now) an High Priest who is set on the right hand of the majesty of heaven

[2], A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
[3], For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: why it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Note: we have (present tense now) an High Priest who is set on the right hand of the majesty of heaven

[4], For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Note: we have (present tense now) an High Priest who is set on the right hand of the majesty of heaven

[5], Who serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.

Note: we have (present tense now) an High Priest who is set on the right hand of the majesty of heaven the old covenant Levitcal Priesthood and laws for remission of sins are shadows of heavenly things

[6], BUT NOW HAS HE OBTAINED A MORE EXCELLENT MINISTRY, BY HOW MUCH ALSO HE IS THE MEDIATOR OF A BETTER COVENANT, WHICH WAS ESTABLISHED ON BETTER PROMISES.

Note: we have (present tense now) an High Priest who is set on the right hand of the majesty of heaven v1 and here in v6 but NOW has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

Now is not future!

................

Hebrews 10:1-10

[1], FOR THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, AND NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THE THINGS, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR CONTINUALLY MAKE THE COMERS THEREUNTO PERFECT

Note: subject matter is old covenant laws for remission of sins being “shadows of things to come” and not the reality of what they point to…

[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Note: If the old testament “shadow laws” for remission of sins where the reality then they would not have ceased to be offered…

[3], BUT IN THOSE SACRIFICES THERE IS A REMEMBRANCE AGAIN MADE OF SINS EVERY YEAR (Yom Kippur).
[4], FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Note it is not possible that the old covenant “shadow laws” for remission of sin to take away sin

[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me:

Note: God’s true sacrifice for sin being foretold in the Torah as being Christ to who the “shadow laws” for remission of sins point to

[6], In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you have had no pleasure.
[7], THEN SAID I, SEE, I COME (IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME,) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.
[8], Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you would not, neither had pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[9], THEN SAID HE, SEE, I COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD. HE TAKES AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.
[10], BY THE WHICH WILL WE ARE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST ONCE FOR ALL.

Note: now under the new covenant we no longer rely on the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin but sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.

Now is not future…

Colossians 2:17 NIV These are a shadow of the things that were to come; THE REALITY HOWEVER IS FOUND IN CHRIST

.................

All of the above is context to the shadows of "circumcision" baptism, meat and drink offerings, new moons and sabbaths in the Feast days *Colossians 2:11-17. That is these under the old covenant were all shadows of things to come, pointing to "the body of Christ {v17}" which casts the shadow. It is the body that casts the shadow and the "shadows" only point to the body [Christ] in the new covenant. See full post in post # 97

Hope this helps.

I see that you're still using those corrupt translations.

When we start adding words to scripture; we can make it say whatever we want it to say.

I'll just stick with what the text actually says.

Thanks.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 19, 2021

HARK! said:
I see that you're still using those corrupt translations.

When we start adding words to scripture; we can make it say whatever we want it to say.

I'll just stick with what the text actually says.

Thanks.

I doubt it. I posted nearly every translation in post in post # 97. Hebrews *Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-22 is the context your missing that I added context in Hebrews 8 and Hebrews 10 and Colossians 2. I was using the kjv and also posted parallel translations for Colossians 2. I can to a parallel comparison of most translations for Hebrews as well as I did in the linked post above which shows the translation is correct. What is it you do not believe? They are God's Words not mine. So I guess I will stick with what the bible says. You of course are free to believe as you wish and we will I guess have to agree to disagree.

HARK! · Jan 19, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
You would need to prove your claims because they are true I would say otherwise your making things up not relevant to the discussion.

I already did. I gave you a literal translation, with the words of the original text highlighted in red. The literal translation that I provided does a fairly good job of conforming to the Critical Text.

If you are going to ignore my presentations, and the scholarly foundations that they are built on; then I'll leave you to the mistranslations that you have been quoting.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 19, 2021

HARK! said:
I already did. I gave you a literal translation, with the words of the original text highlighted in red. The literal translation that I provided does a fairly good job of conforming to the Critical Text.

If you are going to ignore my presentations, and the scholarly foundations that they are built on; then I'll leave you to the mistranslations that you have been quoting.

Well that is not true dear friend as I did not ignore your posts. Each of your posts have been addressed section by section and scripture by scripture showing the context you leave out in the surrounding scriptures that disagrees with your interpretation. After adding the scripture context back in that you leave out it is God's Word (not mine) that shows that the application is to now (present tense) showing "to come" was in application to the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins under the old covenant being "shadow laws" of the Christ that was to come and are now fulfilled in Christ who has now come in the new covenant (post 130 linked)

HARK! · Jan 19, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Well that is not true dear friend.

How many laws are too many?

LoveGodsWord · Jan 19, 2021

HARK! said:
How many laws are too many?

That has nothing to do with the post you are micro quoting from as I was addressing the context you left out and it is the context I was referring to not the scripture translations. As posted earlier, each of your posts have been addressed section by section and scripture by scripture showing the context you leave out in the surrounding scriptures that disagrees with your interpretation. After adding the scripture context back in that you leave out it is God's Word (not mine) that shows that the application is to now (present tense) showing "to come" was in application to the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins under the old covenant being "shadow laws" of the Christ that was to come and are now fulfilled in Christ who has now come in the new covenant (post 130 linked) "Well that is not true dear friend" (from me your part quoting) was in regards to the context you left out that disagrees with your interpretation of "future" as the "substance is the body of Christ that has now come. We are in the new covenant now not the old "shadow laws" that are of things to come.

HARK! · Jan 19, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
That has nothing to do with the post you are quoting micro quoting which says. Each of your posts have been addressed section by section and scripture by scripture showing the context you leave out in the surrounding scriptures that disagrees with your interpretation. After adding the scripture context back in that you leave out it is God's Word (not mine) that shows that the application is to now (present tense) showing "to come" was in application to the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins under the old covenant being "shadow laws" of the Christ that was to come and are now fulfilled in Christ who has now come in the new covenant (post 130 linked)

You're conflating the subject of the present tense with the subject of the future tense. I'm not willing to play that game. Paul chose two different tenses for a reason. Paul mentioned two different subjects for a reason. Words have meaning.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 19, 2021

HARK! said:
You're conflating the subject of the present tense with the subject of the future tense. I'm not willing to play that game. Paul chose two different tenses for a reason. Paul mentioned two different subjects for a reason. Words have meaning.

Not really post 130 linked proves this is not true. After adding the scripture context back in that you leave out it is God's Word (not mine) that shows that the application is to now (present tense) showing "to come" was in application to the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins under the old covenant being "shadow laws" of the Christ that was to come and are now fulfilled in Christ who has now come with application being to the new covenant. Words do indeed have meaning but not in isolation from context that determines meaning in the Hebrew and Greek. It is the context the show application is to present tense indicative "now" because the "Christ" that the "shadow laws for remission of sins pointed to has now come.

HARK! · Jan 19, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Not really post 130 linked proves this is not true. After adding the scripture context back in that you leave out it is God's Word (not mine) that shows that the application is to now (present tense) showing "to come" was in application to the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins under the old covenant being "shadow laws" of the Christ that was to come and are now fulfilled in Christ who has now come in the new covenant

Post 130 in no way debunks post 102. Sorry my friend, post 102 is future tense; and no matter how verbose your rebuttals might be, no matter how many argumentum ad populum references you present of corrupted translations, no matter how you might obfuscate this simple truth, with vague, weakly related, scriptural references; the simple truth remains the same. The Greek manuscripts reveal the truth for those who take the time to test it.

Your argument isn't with me. Your argument is with the Greek manuscripts.

If you don't trust them; you a free to believe those who have chosen to add and subtract from scripture.

LoveGodsWord · Jan 19, 2021

HARK! said:
Post 130 in no way debunks post 102. Sorry my friend, post 102 is future tense; and no matter how verbose your rebuttals might be, no matter how many argumentum ad populum references you present of corrupted translations, no matter how you might obfuscate this simple truth, with vague, weakly related, scriptural references; the simple truth remains the same. The Greek manuscripts reveal the truth for those who take the time to test it.

Your argument isn't with me. Your argument is with the Greek manuscripts.

If you don't trust them; you a free to believe those who have chosen to add and subtract from scripture.

Sure it debunks your interpretation that Hebrews 7; Hebrews 8; Hebrews 9; Hebrews 10 and Colossians 2:17 is future application. As it shows the context you left out proving application is to present tense indicative to the now in the surrounding scriptures. Sorry dear friend but scripture context proves your interpretation to some time in the future is not true as the scriptures state the application is now (present tense) showing "Shadows of good things to come" was in application to the Mosaic law for remission of sins under the old covenant being "shadow laws" of the Christ that was to come and are now fulfilled in Christ who has now come with application being to the new covenant. Words do indeed have meaning but not in isolation from context that determines meaning in the Hebrew and Greek. It is the context the show application is to present tense indicative "now" because the "Christ" that the "shadow laws for remission of sins pointed to has now come. For me we will have to agree to disagree as I believe your argument is not with me but with the Greek manuscripts that disagree with you. Of course you are free to believe as you wish.

How many laws are too many?

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