Homosexuality the early churches view should be ours

SilverBear · Jan 19, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Di you read the document? Or just the first sentence?

i read it. It was very twisty and not terribly convincing

FutureAndAHope · Jan 19, 2021

SilverBear said:
i read it. It was very twisty and not terribly convincing

I have to ask you one question, and one only.

Do you believe the word of God, the Bible?

yes/no

parousia70 · Jan 19, 2021

aiki said:
But this assumes that one's behaviour is essentially identical in category to one's physical characteristics..

Same-sex attraction is not a behavior.

parousia70 · Jan 19, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
I don't personally believe in Homosexual Celibacy.

Well I personally know celibate homosexuals so...

It is based on the false premise that homosexuals can be nothing but homosexuals.

That premise is not false however

God's word presents homosexuality as a sin

Rather, God’s word presents homosexual behavior as sin. No where in scripture do we find anything stating same-sex attraction is sin.

Yours is the false premise, namely that people who experience same-sex attraction are somehow bound to act on it if they don’t pray the gay away...

FutureAndAHope · Jan 19, 2021

parousia70 said:
Well I personally know celibate homosexuals so...

That premise is not false however

Rather, God’s word presents homosexual behavior as sin. No where in scripture do we find anything stating same-sex attraction is sin.

Yours is the false premise, namely that people who experience same-sex attraction are somehow bound to act on it if they don’t pray the gay away...

Same sex attraction, as with all sins, comes from the Devil. He tempts people to sin. The verse in Romans states that God gives evil people over to evil desires, when they reject Him. He does not cause them to sin, for the bible says "God can not be tempted by sin, neither tempts any man", rather he allows them to be "given over to sin", essentially given to Satan's desires.

If God can not be tempted by sin, neither tempts any man, why would he force a creation to be gay? It makes no sense. There is no such thing as a gay (who can not change), it is a demonic desire.

hedrick · Jan 19, 2021

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
How did the Church become so fundamentally mistaken on this topic essential to her existence until the modern age? An age where Christians weren't at the forefront of defending this so called justified homosexual expression, but secularists? The attempts I see made by Christians to justify all sorts of sexual practices do not seem to arise from Christianity itself, but are positions outside of it being forced upon Christendom with bad reasoning.

If the Church was wrong on the morality of sex for virtually it's entire existence, what else has she been wrong about? Perhaps sex outside of marriage was never wrong. What's wrong with Prositution as long as two parties consent? Why shouldn't Christians embrace the sexual revolution totally?

Christians change their judgement on all kinds of issues. For more than half of the history of the church banks couldn't charge interest because of OT prohibitions. For most of the history of the church women couldn't be ordained. Traditional Christians told abused women that they needed to be submissive.

In some cases these were due to cultural blind spots. I believe that's true for many gender and sex related issues. From at least the time of Augustine, the Church has had views of sex that aren't based on either Scripture or anything rational. People like Augustine were offended by sex.

In some cases changes are become of different contexts. In the OT, interest was seen as taking advantage of the poor. Today it allows people of modest means to do things like buy houses that they couldn't otherwise do.

Changes in the attitude towards homosexuality has both aspects. But I certainly don't rule out the possibility of the Church being wrong about things for 2000 years. There are certainly other examples of this. E.g. assuming that the world was created in 7 days, and the earth doesn't move. Following Jesus does not give us infallibility.

atpollard · Jan 19, 2021

parousia70 said:
Yet how are we going to expel you if you keep your sexual sins hidden in the closet as seems to be your want, and seems to be what you are attempting to teach is the “better way”.

Quit being coy, and quit teaching your brother in Christ to hide his sin from the rest of the body.
Set the proper example. Let us examine your sexual proclivities in the light of day so we may make the proper determination and take the biblically prescribed action.

[Matthew 7:21-23 NASB] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

[John 14:15 NASB] "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

[2 Peter 2:17-22 NASB] These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Save your clever words for the day when we will each stand before the same Lord and I will give an account for why I told people that homosexual acts are a sin, and you will give an account for why you didn’t (and mocked those that did). Both of us cannot have rightly divided the word of God.

Maria Billingsley · Jan 19, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
I don't personally believe in Homosexual Celibacy. It is based on the false premise that homosexuals can be nothing but homosexuals. God's word presents homosexuality as a sin God gives people over to when they reject Him, do you not think he has the power to reverse the power of sin when a person repents of their past rejection of God.

I am grieved by your comment. Be blessed.

parousia70 · Jan 19, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Same sex attraction, as with all sins, comes from the Devil. He tempts people to sin.

Do you believe the Bible when it says this:

James 1:14
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

And these:
Psalm 58:2
No, in heart you work wickedness; You weigh out the violence of your hands in the earth.

Jeremiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

The heart of man is fully capable of the gravest of sins all by itself.
Satan is by no means a necessary tempter, otherwise no one would need personal salvation.

There is no such thing as a gay (who can not change), it is a demonic desire.

So when did you choose to reject your same sex attraction and choose to be straight?

atpollard · Jan 19, 2021

parousia70 said:
Rather, I am advocating warning everyone. I don’t believe just because you’re hiding your sin you should be free from admonition for it. I’m curious why you do however.

Then why hide your sins from us?
Is the right that people have to hear the truth not apply to you as well?

It is a well-established truth that the sinner who keeps his transgressions hidden from the community poses a far greater risk to themselves and the community than the sinner who displays his transgressions openly.

Uncover your sins, confess them here and we will decide what appropriate action should be taken. We are not going to countenance the godless liberal notion that hiding your sins means you don’t have to be responsible for them to the rest of us.

You have failed to follow Biblical instructions for dealing with the sin of another Christian. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to ignorance rather than unchristian malice, so here AGAIN, are the instructions from GOD for you to follow:

[Matthew 18:15-17]

"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

I await your PM.

parousia70 · Jan 19, 2021

atpollard said:
Save your clever words for the day when we will each stand before the same Lord and I will give an account for why I told people that homosexual acts are a sin, and you will give an account for why you didn’t (and mocked those that did). Both of us cannot have rightly divided the word of God.

I will likewise give account for why I tell people that Homosexual acts are sin.
Please find where I haven't and present it here if you are going to accuse me of such.

Now, I still find your behavior and obfuscation highly suspicious...
Why are you hiding your sexual proclivities from the Church?

parousia70 · Jan 19, 2021

atpollard said:
You have failed to follow Biblical instructions for dealing with the sin of another Christian. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to ignorance rather than unchristian malice, so here AGAIN, are the instructions from GOD for you to follow:

[Matthew 18:15-17]

"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.

"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.

"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

I await your PM.

Forgive me... who were you privately admonishing when you said:

Homosexuality gets special attention because it claims to not be a sin.

Or is it only ok when YOU do it publicly?

FutureAndAHope · Jan 19, 2021

parousia70 said:
Do you believe the Bible when it says this:

James 1:14
But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

And these:
Psalm 58:2
No, in heart you work wickedness; You weigh out the violence of your hands in the earth.

Jeremiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

The heart of man is fully capable of the gravest of sins all by itself.
Satan is by no means a necessary tempter, otherwise no one would need personal salvation.

So when did you choose to reject your same sex attraction and choose to be straight?

Satan uses our desires against us, he makes us feel like sinning, he asks us to sin. He is very real in the whole process.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

1Co 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

1Th 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

atpollard · Jan 19, 2021

Sparagmos said:
How in the world do you know that people are “living in sin?” It’s not like cheaters and inappropriate content addicts and domestic abusers are open about it. And will continue to hide it if they are going to get expelled for admitting it.

My father was a minister and abused his wife and children. No one held him accountable and no one tried to make sure that he wasn’t being abusive. It wasn’t discussed, but homosexuality was discussed all of the time.

Respectfully, I cannot speak for where you attended (or attend) church services, but the local congregations that I have been part of have been more of a “small town” community with ‘gossip’ a far greater struggle than ‘ignorance’. In my experience, if NOBODY knew anything was wrong, it was because NOBODY WANTED TO SEE OR HEAR what was going on. A lack of Christian obedience to the Holy Spirit in the looking after “one another” department calls into question whether it was really “The Church” or just an ‘ICHABOD’ Club.

(Such questions fall far above my pay grade).

What I do know is the sword of the word it two edged, like the thieves crucified on either side of Christ. On the one side we have the TRUTH that “the wages of Sin really IS DEATH” and every man will be called to justice, so that we should never become arrogant or proud. On the other side, NOBODY is beyond the reach of Christ to forgive and save, so that we should never despair. Church needs to teach both truths ... sin and mercy ... Law and Grace (as the Lutherans would say).

So we need to talk about how God expects husbands to treat wives (because God said a lot about it) and how Christians need to be DOING for one another as well as all about personal and sexual purity.

atpollard · Jan 19, 2021

parousia70 said:
Forgive me... who were you privately admonishing when you said:

Or is it only ok when YOU do it publicly?

I admonished no one. I answered a question about why one sin is preached about more than other sins. In the early 1900’s, public drunkenness was more of a prevalent problem, so there was a lot of preaching about drunkenness. That is not a judgement, it is just a statement of historic fact.

In contrast, you are publicly accusing me of sexual sins and demanding that I publicly confess. I have asked no one to confess. In point of fact, I have not shared my personal views on homosexuality at all. They are irrelevant to a discussion on the Biblical view of the subject.

The irony is that sexual sins are probably one of the few areas that I have never struggled with ... now IDOLATRY, BLASPHEMY, MURDER, STEALING, LYING, COVETING, ANGER, VIOLENCE, MALICE ... those I have a great deal of experience with. However, I see no reason to confess anything to you. I am NOT your servant and you have not behaved like a christian brother.

I can only assume that you want affirmation that homosexual sex is “moral”. Sorry, it is not within my power to grant or withhold that affirmation. You do not answer to me. I can only tell you what I have read in scripture, and it appears to my reading that God is not “OK” with homosexual intercourse. The final decision belongs to God, but I have an obligation to speak the TRUTH as I understand it.

coffee4u · Jan 19, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Please move this if it is inappropriate for this forum.

I would like to contest for the faith.

The basic premise of the World, or the secular society, is the following premise:

Homosexuality is a biological issue, as such a homosexual has no control over their preference, they are born homosexual, as such it is wrong to class it as a sin, or something wrong.

This however is not the truth. It is an opinion of man. God’s word, or the way he describes the sin is entirely different. Any church that accepts the sin of homosexuality has deviated away from God’s word and seeks to please man.

O you who are false to God, do you not see that the friends of this world are not God's friends? Every man desiring to be a friend of this world makes himself a hater of God. - Jas 4:4

So what does God’s word say about homosexuality. I will give a brief description of it here before moving to the bible’s description of it.

The bible basically says that the sin shows it’s presence the most where a person has chosen to remove themselves from the knowledge of God. Where they have chosen to ignore his commands, and call consistently. They have chosen, witchcraft, sexual sin, hatred, unloving attitudes, over God’s call to live with restraint, and true gentleness. As such the worlds view that homosexuality is love, is far removed from the truth, it actually shows a rejection of God’s love.

It is not however a sin that is unpardonable, meaning that a person can leave that life style and receive God. But no man may live in the sin and think they have the forgiveness of God. For God lists it as an abomination.

The civil law of God given by Moses, states:

And if a man has sex relations with a man, the two of them have done a disgusting thing: let them be put to death; their blood will be on them. - Lev 20:13

This shows that God does not want people to be homosexual, any law that promotes homosexuality is against God. One of the primary reason is that God has shown through scripture that homosexuality manifests it’s self in the rejection of God, and his commands. Now the bible says that God is love. That his attributes are:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, a quiet mind, kind acts, well-doing, faith, Gentle behaviour, control over desires: against such there is no law. Gal 5:22-23

A person who has moved into the sin of homosexuality according to the bible has in the past been exposed to God’s love and word, but have chosen to ignore it and rather give into passion, and lust. As such, being a God rejector, and a hater of what is good, should have no part in church ministry.

Because, having the knowledge of God, they did not give glory to God as God, and did not give praise, but their minds were full of foolish things, and their hearts, being without sense, were made dark. Seeming to be wise, they were in fact foolish, And by them the glory of the eternal God was changed and made into the image of man who is not eternal, and of birds and beasts and things which go on the earth. For this reason God gave them up to the evil desires of their hearts, working shame in their bodies with one another: Because by them the true word of God was changed into that which is false, and they gave worship and honour to the thing which is made, and not to him who made it, to whom be blessing for ever. So be it. For this reason God gave them up to evil passions, and their women were changing the natural use into one which is unnatural: And in the same way the men gave up the natural use of the woman and were burning in their desire for one another, men doing shame with men, and getting in their bodies the right reward of their evil-doing. And because they had not the mind to keep God in their knowledge, God gave them up to an evil mind, to do those things which are not right; Being full of all wrongdoing, evil, desire for the goods of others, hate, envy, putting to death, fighting, deceit, cruel ways, evil talk, and false statements about others; Hated by God, full of pride, without respect, full of loud talk, given to evil inventions, not honouring father or mother, Without knowledge, not true to their undertakings, unkind, having no mercy: Who, though they have knowledge of the law of God, that the fate of those who do these things is death, not only go on doing these things themselves, but give approval to those who do them. - Rom 1:21-32

All sex outside of marriage is a sin including watching inappropriate contentography or a man lusting after a women. There is no hierarchy of worse to better, excepting perhaps for pedophilia since God does make special mention of those hurting children would be better to have a stone around their neck and tossed into the sea. But it's too easy for people to point to homosexuals when they are in just as much sin themselves, be it a different sin.

I think people need to understand that sin is sin, but at the same time not vilify one sin over another. Rom 1:21-32 is a good example that all these sins were quite different, yet all are together including gossiping. Gossiping has to be one sin that is very wide spread, but does the gossip realize that they are practicing a sin that is being shown as equal to practicing homosexuality or are they gossiping about the homosexual?

I fully believe it is not the leaning that is wrong but the lusting and the doing, the same way as it is for heterosexuals. God calls all unmarried Christians to be celibate and pure of mind. I think it is this point, celibacy and purity of mind, that needs to be focused on. If the Christian is practicing such things it doesn't matter what their leanings are now does it? If they are resisting temptation they need encouragement not condemnation. If the focus is on homosexuality it's too easy for a heterosexual to be self righteous while being seeped in sin.

"As such, being a God rejector, and a hater of what is good, should have no part in church ministry."
And did they check that the other guy, that heterosexual, was not a inappropriate content watcher or a luster after women? They equilly should have no part in church ministry.
Lets keep the focus on the higher goals of celibacy and purity of mind.

parousia70 · Jan 19, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Satan uses our desires against us, he makes us feel like sinning, he asks us to sin. He is very real in the whole process.
.

Is it your position that Human beings would be incapable if sinning if Satan were not behind it, tempting them?

FutureAndAHope · Jan 19, 2021

parousia70 said:
Is it your position that Human beings would be incapable if sinning if Satan were not behind it, tempting them?

No. Satan just incites people to sin, tries to force them to sin. But people are just as capable of sinning without his influence.

But, praise be to God, who gives the Holy Spirit to those who seek Him. To empower us to live a higher, not lust-filled life.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 19, 2021

coffee4u said:
All sex outside of marriage is a sin including watching inappropriate contentography or a man lusting after a women. There is no hierarchy of worse to better, excepting perhaps for pedophilia since God does make special mention of those hurting children would be better to have a stone around their neck and tossed into the sea. But it's too easy for people to point to homosexuals when they are in just as much sin themselves, be it a different sin.

I think people need to understand that sin is sin, but at the same time not vilify one sin over another. Rom 1:21-32 is a good example that all these sins were quite different, yet all are together including gossiping. Gossiping has to be one sin that is very wide spread, but does the gossip realize that they are practicing a sin that is being shown as equal to practicing homosexuality or are they gossiping about the homosexual?

I fully believe it is not the leaning that is wrong but the lusting and the doing, the same way as it is for heterosexuals. God calls all unmarried Christians to be celibate and pure of mind. I think it is this point, celibacy and purity of mind, that needs to be focused on. If the Christian is practicing such things it doesn't matter what their leanings are now does it? If they are resisting temptation they need encouragement not condemnation. If the focus is on homosexuality it's too easy for a heterosexual to be self righteous while being seeped in sin.

"As such, being a God rejector, and a hater of what is good, should have no part in church ministry."
And did they check that the other guy, that heterosexual, was not a inappropriate content watcher or a luster after women? They equilly should have no part in church ministry.
Lets keep the focus on the higher goals of celibacy and purity of mind.

I don't know where on the list of sins homosexuality is if we were to give it a scale. But Paul separates it out as a sin of mention, for those who abandon faith. So no they should not be involved in church ministry, no more than a fornicator, or inappropriate content watcher.

And did they check that the other guy, that heterosexual, was not a inappropriate content watcher or a luster after women?

They should check this. I would not allow a inappropriate content watcher to be a leader in the church.

PloverWing · Jan 19, 2021

atpollard said:
[Galatians 2:11-14 NASB] But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

It should have been challenged and corrected. It brought shame on the name of Christ.

Galatians 2 is an interesting passage to quote, because our whole discussion here is about whether a particular point of Jewish law is binding on Gentile Christians.

Homosexuality the early churches view should be ours

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