Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

Saint Steven said:

Require reconciliation? He provided it.

Colossians 1:19-23
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Click to expand...

Never said He didn't provide reconciliation... ...It is obvious that He is providing reconciliation...

It is also obvious that reconciliation is required, that's why He provided it...

It is also obvious that we must continue in the faith, otherwise, we will be worse off than before we were reconciled, for then we will have despised His free gift, and we will be worse off than before.

I'm confident now, that there is something sinister lying beneath the dialog we are having, for I am continuously pointing out the obvious, not only in the scriptures, but also in all my dialogs with you, across several posts of differing subjects.

I must ask, directly, how is it that you don't see what I see, in all that we've read?

Religiot said:

I'm confident now, that there is something sinister lying beneath the dialog we are having, for I am continuously pointing out the obvious, not only in the scriptures, but also in all my dialogs with you, across several posts of differing subjects.

I must ask, directly, how is it that you don't see what I see, in all that we've read?

Click to expand...

You're new here. Hopefully you'll learn to get along with a wide variety of believers from various backgrounds and beliefs. Some (like me) may make you uncomfortable. I suggest you run toward people like that rather than away from them. You can actually learn something. In recent history you were offended by the use of the word "afterlife", claiming it was a satanic lie. (post #266) Hard to always see eye to eye with someone so easily offended.

On the forum there are far more sellers than buyers. Very few come here to gain something. And many show up with a chip on their shoulder. (as the saying goes)

Furthermore, this is the Controversial Christian Theology area. Visitors should probably expect controversy. (to point out the obvious)

Saint Steven said:

You're new here. Hopefully you'll learn to get along with a wide variety of believers from various backgrounds and beliefs. Some (like me) may make you uncomfortable. I suggest you run toward people like that rather than away from them. You can actually learn something. In recent history you were offended by the use of the word "afterlife", claiming it was a satanic lie. (post #266) Hard to always see eye to eye with someone so easily offended.

On the forum there are far more sellers than buyers. Very few come here to gain something. And many show up with a chip on their shoulder. (as the saying goes)

Furthermore, this is the Controversial Christian Theology area. Visitors should probably expect controversy. (to point out the obvious)

Click to expand...

I wasn't offended, I was just pointing out the deception in that term.

You, however, do sound offended.

For more clarity, I don't mean that you're sinister personally, I'm simply referring to something sinister, i.e., demonic forces, or doctrines, but I don't know for sure, save only that it is sinister.

Moreover, I don't shy away from controversy, and I think you know that already.

PS: Just cause I'm new here, does not mean that I'm new to the faith--this is all the same to me, I have yet to come across anything knew; and I don't say that to boast, I say that to show my prejudice: to me, either it's the Doctrine of Christ, or the doctrines of devils, it's easy that way, the simple way, Christ's way.

Religiot said:

PS: Just cause I'm new here, does not mean that I'm new to the faith--this is all the same to me, I have yet to come across anything knew; and I don't say that to boast, I say that to show my prejudice: to me, either it's the Doctrine of Christ, or the doctrines of devils, it's easy that way, the simple way, Christ's way.

Click to expand...

There are a range of opinions about doctrine. (where most eye-planks come from) I wouldn't be too quick to cast judgment.

Most denominations are separated by doctrinal differences. Some doctrinal tolerance may be in order. Doctrines are typically man made anyway. Which is what separated churches into denominations in the first place. And I don't think that was necessarily a bad thing either. Most denominations are specialists in some area of the faith. Which is a good thing.

Saint Steven said:

Some doctrinal tolerance may be in order.

Click to expand...

Like this?

And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? (Mk 12:24)

Now this includes but is not limited to:

• Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. (Isa 45:23, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:9-10)
  
• Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Mt 23:14)

Now there's our doctrinal tolerance benchmark.

Saint Steven said:

There are a range of opinions about doctrine. (where most eye-planks come from) I wouldn't be too quick to cast judgment.

Most denominations are separated by doctrinal differences. Some doctrinal tolerance may be in order. Doctrines are typically man made anyway. Which is what separated churches into denominations in the first place. And I don't think that was necessarily a bad thing either. Most denominations are specialists in some area of the faith. Which is a good thing.

Click to expand...

Division among believers is carnal, the spiritually minded recognize it as such, and thus reject these divisions as man made. Man made religion is witchcraft, and witchcraft is inspired by Satan, not the Spirit, for the Spirit inspires obedience only to the Doctrine of Christ.

--Brother, I'm not quick to judge, I've already judged all things by His word, I'm prejudice.

Saint Steven said:

What are you "into Christianity" for then?

Click to expand...

For the sake of myself.

Religiot said:

Division among believers is carnal, the spiritually minded recognize it as such, and thus reject these divisions as man made. Man made religion is witchcraft, and witchcraft is inspired by Satan, not the Spirit, for the Spirit inspires obedience only to the Doctrine of Christ.

--Brother, I'm not quick to judge, I've already judged all things by His word, I'm prejudice.

Click to expand...

Hogwash.
If that's true, how do you determine which group is right?

You should start a topic declaring your personal "Doctrine of Christ" for review and see how it goes. (should be a blood bath)

section9+1 said:

For the sake of myself.

Click to expand...

Is that valid?

Saint Steven said: ↑
What are you "into Christianity" for then?

Saint Steven said:

Hogwash.
If that's true, how do you determine which group is right?

You should start a topic declaring your personal "Doctrine of Christ" for review and see how it goes. (should be a blood bath)

Click to expand...

LOL! (you really caused me to laugh out loud very loudly, and I'm still laughing as I type)

I'm not laughing at you as a scoffer would, it's just that your response surprised me, lol, "Hogwash" is a funny term, and I immediately thought about all the people that get baptized in the name of Christ and go back to wallowing in the mire from where they came--I call it 'washing hogs'. (I've washed a few 'hogs' myself.)

To your first question, I answered it in the very comment you just responded to: I can determine who is right by simply judging by His word, there is not other way to judge.

To your suggestion that I start a topic declaring my own personal Doctrine of Christ, I say that that would be impossible, because I don't have my personal version of the Doctrine of Christ--the Doctrine of Christ is His teaching, not mine, nor anyone else's.

And the only bloodbath that concerns me when it comes to the Doctrine of Christ, was the one I took in the blood that He shed for me.

There is, however, another bloodbath pending, and it won't be anyone in His blood, but He will be covered in theirs.

He will ride in with His saints, into the most glorious battle the world has ever seen, and no one will miss it, nor escape it, for He will raise the dead, and their blood will be to the bridle of His horse, literally.

As the prophets said, that He will ride in on a donkey and be killed, and the false teachers taught it as metaphorically; so too does the prophet say, that the second time He will ride in on a war horse to kill everyone, and the false teachers teach it as metaphorically. Nothing new, nothing new, nothing new. Amen.

Beware to be found worthy, for He is coming, and He will not spare--everyone will see Him, He will make sure of it. Amen.

Saint Steven said:

The NIV is a biased English translation? - lol
Are you KJO? (King James Only)
Do you have a definition of Sheol/Hades that proves it is not the realm of the dead?

Click to expand...

No, I’m not KJO.

does anybody in the Bible actually use the phrase “realm of the dead”, in the Hebrew and/or Greek? As far as I can tell, that phrasing is only in the NIV due to the translators using it in place of the word Sheol.

the burden is on you to prove Sheol means “realm of the dead”, not me to prove that it doesn’t.

Dkh587 said:

No, I’m not KJO.

does anybody in the Bible actually use the phrase “realm of the dead”, in the Hebrew and/or Greek? As far as I can tell, that phrasing is only in the NIV due to the translators using it in place of the word Sheol.

the burden is on you to prove Sheol means “realm of the dead”, not me to prove that it doesn’t.

Click to expand...

You have already informed us that the NIV translators replaced Sheol with "the realm of the dead". So, you have already proved it. Thanks.

Is Sheol something different than the realm of the dead?

Saint Steven said:

Is that valid?

Saint Steven said: ↑
What are you "into Christianity" for then?

Click to expand...

Why not? Do you consider yourself better off or worse off because you're a Christian? If you have derived no worthwhile benefit from it then why be a Christian?

Saint Steven said:

You have already informed us that the NIV translators replaced Sheol with "the realm of the dead". So, you have already proved it. Thanks.

Is Sheol something different than the realm of the dead?

Click to expand...

Where does the Greek or Hebrew say that Sheol is “the realm of the dead”?

Here's what TDNT has to say about the word: "In the LXX ᾅδης is almost always a rendering of שְׁאוֹל. In the OT this signifies the dark (Job 10:21 f.) “realm of the dead” which is set beneath the ocean (26:5) and which consigns all men indiscriminately (Ps. 89:48) behind its portals to an eternal (Job 7:9 f.; 16:22; Qoh. 12:5) shadowy existence (Is. 14:9), cf. 38:10; Job 38:17. This OT שְׁאוֹל idea is in essential agreement with the conception of the future world found in popular Babylonian belief."

A translation like "realm of the dead" is used because "hell" implies a place for only bad people, whereas that's not the way the word is used in the OT. Translating it as "Sheol" as in the NRSV isn't actually a translation, and leaves the reader not knowing what it means. KJV seems to use "the grave" sometimes, and Hell others.

section9+1 said:

Why not? Do you consider yourself better off or worse off because you're a Christian? If you have derived no worthwhile benefit from it then why be a Christian?

Click to expand...

I think the most valuable benefits, in the here and now, come from not doing it for yourself only.

There is a benefit for us when we put others first. This goes contrary to natural human thought. (look out for yourself first, help others from the increase) When we are slapped, we turn the other check, instead of slapping them back. (something I would like to see more of on the forum) A soft answer turns away wrath. (when we would be inclined to yell back) Giving until it hurts, knowing God will care for us.

So, I agree with you, but with the caveat mentioned above. Investing ourselves in others, knowing the return will benefit us in the long run. However, if this did not benefit us, we would be less likely. Probably why the threat of eternal punishment was invented. To force us to do what's right through fear of eternal consequences. (since we weren't likely to believe there was a benefit in the here and now)

Dkh587 said:

Where does the Greek or Hebrew say that Sheol is “the realm of the dead”?

Click to expand...

What do you mean "say"?
There are 29 references to "realm of the dead" in the NIV translation. What do they describe? A realm where the dead are. (the realm of the dead) If you are looking for the exact phrase "realm of the dead", it's not likely to be found. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Can you find the word "Trinity" in the Bible?

Ecclesiastes 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

Isaiah 14:9
The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations.

Ezekiel 32:27
But they do not lie with the fallen warriors of old, who went down to the realm of the dead with their weapons of war—their swords placed under their heads and their shields resting on their bones—though these warriors also had terrorized the land of the living.

Bible says eternal life is the reward of our faith. So faith (Christianity) contains the promise of a reward. A benefit. I agree doing good things is beneficial, but you don't need to be a Christian to do good things. Anyone can do that. But a non-Christian's reward is found in this life and that's as far as it goes. A Christian's is found in the next.

section9+1 said:

Bible says eternal life is the reward of our faith. So faith (Christianity) contains the promise of a reward. A benefit. I agree doing good things is beneficial, but you don't need to be a Christian to do good things. Anyone can do that. But a non-Christian's reward is found in this life and that's as far as it goes. A Christian's is found in the next.

Click to expand...

No reward for a Christian in the here and now? (only for the non-Christian)
Would you choose to be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

Saint Steven said:

Would you choose to be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

Click to expand...

no