Do you believe in Creationism or Evolutionism?

Are you a Creationist as per the OP definition.. a literal 7 day week of creation. Gen 1?

  • yes

    Votes: 21 35.6%
  • yes but I think that the entire galaxy as well as Earth, Sun and moon were created in those 7 days

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes but I think the entire universe was created in in those 7 literal days

    Votes: 9 15.3%
  • yes - but the Bible is wrong

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • yes - but I mix evolution with it in some way

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • No - but since I believe the Bible I think of this as a kind of creationism

    Votes: 7 11.9%
  • No - creationism is wrong, the Bible is wrong, I believe evolution is the real truth

    Votes: 3 5.1%
  • other

    Votes: 18 30.5%

  • Total voters
    59

DamianWarS

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No doubt the many many recorded examples in the Bible of unique events - do not provide us with any open doors for eisegesis ... the terms and meaning clearly set by the text and the context -- Moses was no darwinist and neither were his contemporary readers. His text is structured as a historic account.

Who is calling Moses a darwinist? I certainly didn't nor do I reject a literal view, I say the litteralness of the account is the least important part. please don't misrepresent me

Genesis is written in different styles and it cannot be all conflated into historical narrative. The creation account has a very clear chaistic structure in it of A 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3, A, foreshadowing and it is not in a logical order (the light is created before the sun). There are also a lot of very concrete concepts that have been translated into English abstract that may take away from the account. All of these, plus that it's written 2500 years after it happened reasonably point to a different genre.

The word create in Hebrew has closer meaning with forming and filling and even more concretely "fattening" but since English wouldn't allow "God fatten the sky and land" we translate it with abstracts which can influence it's meaning. The word create is not in the first 3 days and what God seems to be doing is separating and the last 3 days God is filling.

We pretend that God is bringing forth out of nothing but the text is not that straight forward and we learn later that man is actually formed out of earth and this is more consistent with how an ancient mindset would view creation which is forming or filling up something that is already there not bringing forth out of nothing which is too abstract of a concept. The text tells us the earth was formless and void as the canvas for day 1, so God speaks light into it, separates the waters from the air, the seas and the land then he fills these vessels. So where did the formless void come from? That's not a question an ancient Hebrew would ask nor is it a focus of the text.

So "litteral" has a lot of preconceived ideas built in there that should not be about how a modern abstract western's world view but about how an ancient mindset thinks. You need to think like an ancient Hebrew to understand this text and what it is saying and also what it is not saying. When you think like a westerner you're going to get a western answer.

The entire life of Moses prior to Sinai occurred before any Bible text had been written down. All timelines it described ... still accurate. When God communicates a time sequence like 7 days, and using time terms like evening-and-morning He does so with perfect accuracy for the intended audience.

Moses is an eyewitness to his own life. The further you are from an eye witness the more oral accounts become fluid. There are goals to the accounts which the details are there to support but they may not be how it actually went. This is standard for oral accounts from ancients and should be assumed (especially from Eastern worldviews). The more uniqueness it has with Hebrew life/culture the more attention to details it's going to have. This is why prior to Abraham you have little stories with large gaps but when Abraham comes into the picture there is a turning point and rich detailed accounts start without large voids. the account of Abraham and his line is more important and intimate to the Hebrews and there would be no outside competition or influence that an account of the flood or creation doesn't have as there would be wide influence and completion with surrounding cultures. Everyone's got a flood story and everyone's got a creation story, but only the Hebrews have an Abraham story.

But even in these Abrahamic accounts we see details that are fluid like Rebecca drawing water for the camels. There were no domesticated camels during that time in that region so this part of the story we already see is taking on contextual details that would fit a post-exodus Hebrew understanding. So we see the stories taking on a modernization to better speak to its audience and communicate it's purpose better.

Nothing in the Bible says that evening-and-morning is 2500 years or that 7 day sequences sometimes have 2500 year gaps or that the plants on Earth had 2500 years of night followed by 2500 years of day, or that plants existed 2500 years before the sun "was made"

I didn't say that either. But using the biblical time line from creation to Moses it's about 2500 years. I've made very detailed genealogy records and have counted the years, personally but it also agrees with any record you can google (or you can do the math yourself). So according to the biblical time line and reading the days/years "as is" there is creation and 2500 years later there is Moses who is credited with writing the creation account. Suffice to say Moses doesn't really know what happened and he has to be told what to write down we must then look at the purpose of writing this text down to understand it's meaning. (Hint: look at the foreshadowing, the mindset of the Hebrews of that time and their wide influence and corruption)

As for gaps inbetween the days I have never even suggested that so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up. Every word in the bible is perfect the way it is and we do not need to fix the text by adding stuff inbetween the lines to support our theories but we do need to understand their roles to interpret them correctly.
 
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d taylor

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Nice to actually meet some creationists for a change :)

Where on this posted thread do you see a Biblical creationist, i believe you are seeing science believing christians trying to make the Bible fit their science model.

And that aint gonna happen.
 
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coffee4u

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The issue is what they believe is it supported by the Bible. I say no, if you believe so, show the Biblical support.

And then they can show Bible verses supporting their doctrine of how mankind came to have a spirit and the origins of sin.

*Takes a seat to wait*
 
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1an

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Where on this posted thread do you see a Biblical creationist, i believe you are seeing science believing christians trying to make the Bible fit their science model.

And that aint gonna happen.
God is the master scientist.
.
 
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Good grief, man! This is the 21st century! Micro-Evolution and Macro-Evolution are nothing but absurd, illiterate expressions dreamed up by radicalized Christian Fundamentalist to explain away the fact that the process of evolution has been observed and recorded both in the laboratory and in the field. However, microevolution and macroevolution are real and distinct processes.

The word microevolution was coined in 1911 to express the concept of changes in allele frequencies. These changes are due to four distinct processes:

1. mutation
2. selection, both natural and artificial
3. gene flow
4. genetic drift

Because these changes occur over time, as the time increases, the changes increase and speciation occurs. In 1939, the word macroevolution was coined to express the concept of changes at this and higher levels. Example of macroevolution have been extensively studied in both plants and animals.

Of particular interest to me are the very many studies of macroevolution in cats and the relevance of these studies to the story of Noah and the ark in Genesis 6-8. Creation Ministries International “defends” the story of the flood by calling to the witness stand a man named Tas Walker who has earned only a bachelor’s degree in a field of science—earth science, and not so much as a certificate of completion in any field of life science. He has also earned a Ph.D. in mechanical engineering and he flaunts that degree to deceive people into believing that he is an expert regarding young earth creationism just as Henry Morris did with his Ph.D. in hydraulic engineering even though neither man’s education in engineering was relevant to young earth creationism. Henry Morris was considered by his peers to be an ignorant fool, and Walker appears me to be ridiculously ignorant of science, and even more ignorant of the Bible.

In his booklet, The Genesis Flood, Fact or Fiction?, Tas Walker agrees with John Woodmorappe’s teaching that the word “kind” in Genesis (Hebrew, מִין) refers to what we now call a genus, as in “the cat kind, the horse kind, and the cow kind.” But, of course, this is nothing but young earth creationist mumbo jumbo because, for example, the “cat kind” is not a genus, but a family (Felidae) comprised of 14 genera. Furthermore, Woodmorappe and Walker claim that all modern animals in the cat kind “descended” from one “parent kind.” But—what do they mean by the word, “descended”? They mean a biological process known by everyone else as “maroevolution”!

About 10.8 million years ago, the cat family began to split off into 8 Lineages consisting of 2 subfamilies, 14 genera, and 41 species. (Kitchener et al. 2017. A revised taxonomy of the Felidae. The final report of the Cat Classification Task Force of the IUCN / SSC Cat Specialist Group.) The relationship of these groups to each other and the relative time of their splitting off has been learned and very well documented by comparing DNA sequences of all 41 species of cats. The actual time of the splitting off is learned from fossil records which young earth creationist believe to be radically misinterpreted.

Leopards (Panthera pardus) and ocelots (Leopardus pardalis) are phenotypically similar to each other, but genotypically dissimilar to each other. This is called convergent evolution and is due to the two genetically very different species having adapted to similar environments. Leopards belong to the Panthera Lineage that includes the leopards and six other species, but ocelots belong to the Leopardus lineage that includes the ocelots and seven other species. Both of these lineages descended (evolved) from the same Felid ancestor rather than one of them from the other. Therefore, it would have been absolutely necessary for one pair of cats (cats are ‘unclean animals—Leviticus 11)) from both lineages to have been aboard the ark. Moreover, as has been proven from DNA sequences, all seven of the species in the Panthera Lineage descended (evolved) independently from each other, and therefore, it would have been absolutely necessary for a pair of cats from all seven of the species in the Panthera Lineage to have been aboard the ark. Furthermore, the same would have been true of the other seven lineages and all of their species—for a total of not just 2, but 82 cats!

All 41 species of cats are carnivores, and none of them hibernate. All 40 species of cats spray their very caustic urine all over everything that they wish to claim as their own. A male lion in captivity requires 8 pounds of food per day—that is 2,920 pounds of food that a male lion on board the ark would have needed to eat during its stay on board the ark—and its mate would have required 2,190 pounds of food. The total food requirement for the 82 cats would have been approximately 90,000 pounds of meat—90,000 pounds of meat that would have to have been fed to the cats by Noah and his family. And we are still talking about just the cats! And we have not yet gotten to the source of that 90,000 pounds of meat or the cats’ excrement!

We have today several hundred thousands of genetically discreet populations of animals that would necessarily have been aboard the ark 4,368 years ago, and during that time, thousands of genetically discreet populations of animals have become extinct, but would necessarily have been aboard the ark. DNA sequences do not lie, but Tas Walker and John Woodmorappe make a habit of it!

The purpose of the research was not to prove the theory of evolution or disprove the Bible; the purpose of the research was to get accurate data that will assist biologists in the protection of the biodiversity of the cat family and the other populations of wild animals—the very purpose of the ark!

I am not really the one who can convince you of the truth of what God's Word says. Only God can do that, my friend. I am not really interesed in debating this issue because it would be like arguing over kindergarden basics of the Bible. You are free to believe as you wish, but I see the danger of believing in Macro-Evolution or Darwinism is that it is one step closer to shacking up with the world and it's ways.
 
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nolidad

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There were men who denied the existence of God back then.

Psalms 14:1 says,
“The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.”

I am sure they tried to rationalize that it was all naturalistic and or by science, too.

The way we fight back is by preaching the gospel, and praying and loving our enemies. It is staying focused on our mission of loving God and loving others.

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God” (1 Corinthians 1:18).


Well there was no naturalisitc thought ack then. Atheism would have been rare indeed. Even the every logical greeks worshipped a pantheon of Gods!

SCience was very very unfomred back then and no one had a concpet that evolution was anything nor the big bang. Paul fought agianst false gods by ashowing themfalse and showing the true God. Just as these saints of God do.

Well you can consider these scientists to somehow be unfaithful to the gospel in some manner, but I think they are doing a vital good for the body by practicing science rightly so called! For they also preach th egospel.

But if teh enemy is attacking on the left, you don't go right to fight him. You fight the fight where the lie is being espoused. and if you study them, you will see they preach the gospel well.

But you seem to have your mind made up against these folks and the jobs they do a as vocation, calling and career. So be it.
 
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Atheism would have been rare indeed.

Actually this line of thinking is not correct. The famous Romans 3:10 verse is taken from Psalms 14 that says:

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” (Psalms 14:1-3).​

So this suggests that a denial of God (or atheism) was more prevalent back in that day than you think.
 
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nolidad

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Actually this line of thinking is not correct. The famous Romans 3:10 verse is taken from Psalms 14 that says:

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” (Psalms 14:1-3).​

So this suggests that a denial of God (or atheism) was more prevalent back in that day than you think.

Now if you read the larger context of Romans you would see they weree busy worshipping man made gods or worshipping the creature more than the creator as it says in romans 1. REligious history shows that all nations surrounding Israel from befoe teh psalms until after all had their own Ba'als.
 
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I am not really the one who can convince you of the truth of what God's Word says. Only God can do that, my friend. I am not really interesed in debating this issue because it would be like arguing over kindergarden basics of the Bible. You are free to believe as you wish, but I see the danger of believing in Macro-Evolution or Darwinism is that it is one step closer to shacking up with the world and it's ways.
Two quick points:

1. I am a theologically conservative evangelical Christian who loves and believes the Word of God, and therefore I study it in the languages in which God chose to give it to us. Greek is an exceptionally difficult language to master largely because none of the Greek tenses have a close counter part in English, and one of its tenses, the aorist tense, is hugely different from anything that we have in English. Moreover, Greek prepositions, unlike our English prepositions, can have a wide range of meanings, and discerning the correct meaning in each use of the preposition requires very careful and close reading of the Greek text. And, of course, Greek verbs are conjugated to express voice, mood, tense, number, and person; and Greek nouns (only partially true of proper nouns), adjectives, pronouns, the definite article, and some numerals, are declined to express number, case, and gender. Therefore, for each book of the New Testament I have here in my study three or more very recent (21st century) commentaries on the Greek text. Even for Philemon (only 25 verses), I have the commentaries by Marcus Barth and Blanke Helmut, 578 pages, John Nordling, 431 pages, and Joseph Fitzmyer, 154 pages.

2: Whether or not a man believes in the theory of evolution has no bearing whatsoever upon the quality of his relationship with Christ. Furthermore, the theory of evolution does not and cannot contradict God’s acts of Creation because the natural sciences and religion do not intersect but run parallel to each other and independently of each other with a line clearly drawn between the two. Scientists are especially careful to avoid crossing that line. When Drs. Rhine and Pratt of Duke University came very close to crossing that line in the 1930’s, they were severely castigated by their peers. However, young earth creationists—including their so-called “scientists”—routinely cross that line—and the consequences to evangelical Christianity have been catastrophic while the teachings of science have triumphed!
 
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1an

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Two quick points:

1. I am a theologically conservative evangelical Christian who loves and believes the Word of God, and therefore I study it in the languages in which God chose to give it to us. Greek is an exceptionally difficult language to master largely because none of the Greek tenses have a close counter part in English, and one of its tenses, the aorist tense, is hugely different from anything that we have in English. Moreover, Greek prepositions, unlike our English prepositions, can have a wide range of meanings, and discerning the correct meaning in each use of the preposition requires very careful and close reading of the Greek text. And, of course, Greek verbs are conjugated to express voice, mood, tense, number, and person; and Greek nouns (only partially true of proper nouns), adjectives, pronouns, the definite article, and some numerals, are declined to express number, case, and gender. Therefore, for each book of the New Testament I have here in my study three or more very recent (21st century) commentaries on the Greek text. Even for Philemon (only 25 verses), I have the commentaries by Marcus Barth and Blanke Helmut, 578 pages, John Nordling, 431 pages, and Joseph Fitzmyer, 154 pages.

2: Whether or not a man believes in the theory of evolution has no bearing whatsoever upon the quality of his relationship with Christ. Furthermore, the theory of evolution does not and cannot contradict God’s acts of Creation because the natural sciences and religion do not intersect but run parallel to each other and independently of each other with a line clearly drawn between the two. Scientists are especially careful to avoid crossing that line. When Drs. Rhine and Pratt of Duke University came very close to crossing that line in the 1930’s, they were severely castigated by their peers. However, young earth creationists—including their so-called “scientists”—routinely cross that line—and the consequences to evangelical Christianity have been catastrophic while the teachings of science have triumphed!
These "Young earthers" have done a great deal of harm to both the teaching of Jesus who is eternal, they have harmed Christianity and brought the Bible into disrepute, turning it into a book of fables. Satan must be loving it, laughing behind his hand. Goodness only knows what the end will be of these false teachers.
.
 
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Two quick points:

1. I am a theologically conservative evangelical Christian who loves and believes the Word of God, and therefore I study it in the languages in which God chose to give it to us. Greek is an exceptionally difficult language to master largely because none of the Greek tenses have a close counter part in English, and one of its tenses, the aorist tense, is hugely different from anything that we have in English. Moreover, Greek prepositions, unlike our English prepositions, can have a wide range of meanings, and discerning the correct meaning in each use of the preposition requires very careful and close reading of the Greek text. And, of course, Greek verbs are conjugated to express voice, mood, tense, number, and person; and Greek nouns (only partially true of proper nouns), adjectives, pronouns, the definite article, and some numerals, are declined to express number, case, and gender. Therefore, for each book of the New Testament I have here in my study three or more very recent (21st century) commentaries on the Greek text. Even for Philemon (only 25 verses), I have the commentaries by Marcus Barth and Blanke Helmut, 578 pages, John Nordling, 431 pages, and Joseph Fitzmyer, 154 pages.

2: Whether or not a man believes in the theory of evolution has no bearing whatsoever upon the quality of his relationship with Christ. Furthermore, the theory of evolution does not and cannot contradict God’s acts of Creation because the natural sciences and religion do not intersect but run parallel to each other and independently of each other with a line clearly drawn between the two. Scientists are especially careful to avoid crossing that line. When Drs. Rhine and Pratt of Duke University came very close to crossing that line in the 1930’s, they were severely castigated by their peers. However, young earth creationists—including their so-called “scientists”—routinely cross that line—and the consequences to evangelical Christianity have been catastrophic while the teachings of science have triumphed!

Usually in my experience if one plays liberal with Genesis 1, then they will take other parts of the Bible in a more liberal kind of way, as well. They may see the global flood as a local flood. They could be in support of drinking alcohol, or smoking. They could be against our Lord's teaching on Non-Resistance and love to carry a gun for protection instead. They may be in support of celebrating Halloween, and or Christmas, etc.; They could be for watching worldly movies that promotes a wide variety of sins (like in popular big budget films like Marvel, Star Trek, and James Bond). In fact, they especially may not see a problem with the promotion of the sin of witchcraft in certain films like Harry Potter or the Chronicles of Narnia. They could be in support of abortion or at least the freedom for the people to choose abortion; And the list goes on, and on.
 
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These "Young earthers" have done a great deal of harm to both the teaching of Jesus who is eternal, they have harmed Christianity and brought the Bible into disrepute, turning it into a book of fables. Satan must be loving it, laughing behind his hand. Goodness only knows what the end will be of these false teachers.
.

Actually, in my experience, it appears to be the exact opposite. Everyone I have known who is into Old Earth Creationism is liberal in some way with something else in their life involving the faith. PrincetonGuy believes in Macro-Evolution or Darwinism. This is clearly a liberal belief in Christianity.

Liberal Christianity - Wikipedia
 
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Now if you read the larger context of Romans you would see they weree busy worshipping man made gods or worshipping the creature more than the creator as it says in romans 1. REligious history shows that all nations surrounding Israel from befoe teh psalms until after all had their own Ba'als.

But Paul is quoting from Psalms 14 (Which does not mention such a thing). Paul mentions Psalms 14 which is a time period in the OT whereby men said there was no God. Paul is talking about his current time period in Romans 1 when he talks about those who worship idols in Romans 1:23. He is not referring back to Psalms 14 as a time of idol worship. Granted, idol worship existed in the OT times. No doubt about it. But in Psalms 14, it referred to a time where many men denied there was a God.
 
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nolidad

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But Paul is quoting from Psalms 14 (Which does not mention such a thing). Paul mentions Psalms 14 which is a time period in the OT whereby men said there was no God. Paul is talking about his current time period in Romans 1 when he talks about those who worship idols in Romans 1:23. He is not referring back to Psalms 14 as a time of idol worship. Granted, idol worship existed in the OT times. No doubt about it. But in Psalms 14, it referred to a time where many men denied there was a God.


And what most people do not realize is that evolution and the big bang are the Genesis chapter one for the religion of secularism, where man is the ultimate in the universe. this is just a modern Ba'al and its doctrine.
 
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These "Young earthers" have done a great deal of harm to both the teaching of Jesus who is eternal, they have harmed Christianity and brought the Bible into disrepute, turning it into a book of fables. Satan must be loving it, laughing behind his hand. Goodness only knows what the end will be of these false teachers.
.

Take for example this Old Earth website. They are in support of Billy Graham here:

https://www.oldearth.org/Facebook_meme/bg2.jpg

Yet, Billy Graham was in favor of Ecumenism.
 
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And what most people do not realize is that evolution and the big bang are the Genesis chapter one for the religion of secularism, where man is the ultimate in the universe. this is just a modern Ba'al and its doctrine.

I am not in disagreement with that. But I believe real change is in preaching the gospel and not in having a Young Earth Creationism ministry. God did not say go out and preach the proper age of the Earth so that men will be saved. Yes, it is good to a degree to let others know the truth on this topic, but it should not be our main focus or the driving force of our ministry. Jesus is the reason for our ministry. He is the One we ultimately should focus primarily on. Not Young Earth Creationism.
 
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