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Daniel Marsh

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Do they have knees to bow and a tongue to confess?

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

Matthew 25:46 is after Jesus returns.
 
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Religiot

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Do you know why people say this God is the God of Wrath and Judgement?

What about God is spirit, joy, peace, forbearance, gentleness, forgiveness, merciful, loving?
Actually, God is love and a consuming fire.
 
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mlepfitjw

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Brother, did you know that God also hates?

Hello Religiot brother, Hates people or something else? Cause my perspective comes from what God did, through Jesus Christ by what (choice the Lord Jesus made ) for the whole world.
 
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Interesting. So, you think no one goes to hell and is destroyed like in the scripture below indicates?

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

That verse indicates the God CAN destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. But I don't believe He will, because He loves you too much:

Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.(Mt 10:29-31).

Still, there is destruction of the flesh, the sinful parts, as necessary step in sanctification:

I have decided to turn such a person over to Satan for the destruction of his body, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
(1 Cor 5:5)

Never, I tell you, will you get free till you have paid the uttermost farthing (Lk 12:59)

But those who die in the LORD will live; their bodies will rise again! (Isa 26:19a)

The old man of flesh needs to be destroyed to give way to the new man in Christ. The sinner dies to self, so he might live to Christ.

Why does destruction need to be an end in itself for you? Don't you see God's plan is so much greater than that?
 
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Actually, I prefer the NT way. . .

Is that with a silent 'O' in between?

A sequence emerges in the Scriptures regarding Hades:
it's a temporary holding place of agony and torment in fire (Lk 16:23-24, 28) for the lost until
the Final Judgment, when all mankind will receive from the Judge the sentences of their final destines,
which sequence would also correspond to "Paradise" of Sheol.

Yes, thank you, I am familiar with the phariseeic interpretation. It's what Jesus works hard to redeem, and for whom he reserves his most trenchant criticism, for example:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Mt 23:15)

Hm, twice the child of hell, what could our Lord be talking about, hmm? Surely not the hypocrisy of damationism, infernalism or hellism.

So Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, where do we find it in the catalogue of God's 'exceedingly good' creation in Genesis? Anywhere in the OT? The HS just forgot to mention it? Then Jesus drops by, he's like, Er by the way...

Your view, though mainstream, is really so unsustainable and untenable from a biblical perspective.

While everlasting "hell" is not a good word for temporary "Hades,"
nevertheless, "hell" is a good word for the non-ending fire of Gehenna
(Mt 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 23:15, 33; Mk 9:43, 45, 47; Lk 12:5).

Hades is where we get our word 'shade', it's actually an anagram. And it's the Hellenised version of Sheol from the OT via the LXX. But you could look at it as a holding pen, I suppose. It's also a metaphor for depression and despair, melancholy and ennui, sadness and regret. But as David says, 'If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there.' (Ps 139:8)

The one who died for you is also the one who warns you of the consequences of rejecting him in unbelief (Jn 3:16, 18), like loving parents warning their child of the possible ravages of cancer from smoking.

Yes, I agree. And sadly, Israel, when given the choice of life or death, chooses unwisely. What would be the point of salvation otherwise? Jesus, the alpha and omega, the cosmic design principle, would be rendered otiose overnight. Who needs saving more than the wretched, hopeless, huddled masses lost in their idolatrous delusions of Babylonian pharmakeia?

False. . .neither you nor anyone else has presented any such evidence regarding the above Scriptures.
(See posts #309, 310, 316, on p. 16).
Assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

Think I did respond to those points, you just didn't like the exegetics. I can take the rejection, really I can...[sob!]

Any ole port in a storm. . .

Is that a Biblical principle, maybe from Jonah - 'any whale in a tempest'...?

But seriously, how about this one...

And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. (Ez 47:9)

While you're idling away on a cloud, I, my dear, shall be out on the banks of the (formerly) Dead Sea, casting the nets and winching 'em in, by the grace of God.
 
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Religiot

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Hello Religiot brother, Hates people or something else? Cause my perspective comes from what God did, through Jesus Christ by what (choice the Lord Jesus made ) for the whole world.
I mean people and things, like He hated Esau, and like He hates the deeds of the Nicolaitans.

David, a man after God's own heart, had deep, murderous hatred toward those who opposed God.

We are made in God's image, so we feel because He does, the question is whether we feel righteously or unrighteously.

We all love, and we all hate, are our affections in conformance to God's will or the world's, that is the question.
 
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mlepfitjw

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I mean people and things, like He hated Esau, and like He hates the deeds of the Nicolaitans.

David, a man after God's own heart, had deep, murderous hatred toward those who opposed God.

We are made in God's image, so we feel because He does, the question is whether we feel righteously or unrighteously.

We all love, and we all hate, are our affections in conformance to God's will or the world's, that is the question.

yes I’m sure we hate how something in life go to but we thank God anyway. I don’t believe God hates anyone now, looking at the world through Jesus Christ eyes, it’s all perspective. If anything Jesus Christ got upset at not the unbeliever but the professing believers who didn’t care for other people. Hate... well if God is love ... and loved all people and Jesus made a choice to love all people and die for them.

what is your perspective of life through either your own eyes or Jesus’s.
So you make a great point and I get it... but eh. To live by oh man God hates everyone that is not good to live by.

we were told to forgive and pray for those who hate.
 
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Clare73

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Is that with a silent 'O' in between?

Yes, thank you, I am familiar with the phariseeic interpretation. It's what Jesus works hard to redeem, and for whom he reserves his most trenchant criticism, for example:

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Mt 23:15)

Hm, twice the child of hell, what could our Lord be talking about, hmm? Surely not the hypocrisy of damationism, infernalism or hellism.
So Gehenna, the Lake of Fire, where do we find it in the catalogue of God's 'exceedingly good' creation in Genesis? Anywhere in the OT? The HS just forgot to mention it? Then Jesus drops by, he's like, Er by the way...

Your view, though mainstream, is really so unsustainable and untenable from a biblical perspective.
Not from Jesus' perspective. . .you'll have to take up "fire" with him. . .unless you just don't believe him in Mt 5:22, 18:8, 9, 25:41; Mk 9:43, 48.
Hades is where we get our word 'shade', it's actually an anagram. And it's the Hellenised version of Sheol from the OT via the LXX. But you could look at it as a holding pen, I suppose. It's also a metaphor for depression and despair, melancholy and ennui, sadness and regret. But as David says, 'If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, thou art there.' (Ps 139:8)

Yes, I agree. And sadly, Israel, when given the choice of life or death, chooses unwisely. What would be the point of salvation otherwise? Jesus, the alpha and omega, the cosmic design principle, would be rendered otiose overnight. Who needs saving more than the wretched, hopeless, huddled masses lost in their idolatrous delusions of Babylonian pharmakeia?
Think I did respond to those points, you just didn't like the exegetics.
Neither does Jesus in Mt 5:22, 18:8, 9, 25:41; Mk 9:43, 48.
I can take the rejection, really I can...[sob!]

Is that a Biblical principle, maybe from Jonah - 'any whale in a tempest'...?

But seriously, how about this one...

And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. (Ez 47:9)

While you're idling away on a cloud, I, my dear, shall be out on the banks of the (formerly) Dead Sea, casting the nets and winching 'em in, by the grace of God.
None of which addresses Jesus in Mt 5:22, 18:8, 9, 25:41; Mk 9:43, 48.
.
 
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mlepfitjw

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Jesus perspective is also seen in Revelation 22, in my opinion, there are many things Jesus Christ says, I agree but having the whole picture makes things much more pleasant to understand though not many people have this undertstanding.

All people will be resurrected, all people are going to God to be judged. No one is going to burn in hell forever and there will people inside the kingdom of God, and outside of the kingdom of God doing whatever it is out there because of their lack of belief, faith, and love.

You can believe whatever and however you want though. You are a believer regardless.

Your heart is the only thing no one will ever be able to read.

Someone mentioned they would rather be walking on the streets of Gold in heaven, my response I dont believe there gonna be streets of Gold but okay. He just laughed and carried on with his business.

@Clare73
 
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Religiot

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yes I’m sure we hate how something in life go to but we thank God anyway. I don’t believe God hates anyone now, looking at the world through Jesus Christ eyes, it’s all perspective. If anything Jesus Christ got upset at not the unbeliever but the professing believers who didn’t care for other people. Hate... well if God is love ... and loved all people and Jesus made a choice to love all people and die for them.

what is your perspective of life through either your own eyes or Jesus’s.
So you make a great point and I get it... but eh. To live by oh man God hates everyone that is not good to live by.

we were told to forgive and pray for those who hate.
God is love, that's why His hatred is perfect, for one can only hate if he loves.

Take for example a narcissist, he will love those who love him with a love proportionate to the love he has for himself, i.e., he will love them greatly so long as he loves himself greatly; conversely, he will hate those who offend him with hatred that is only proportionate to the love he feels for himself, thus, the more he loves himself, the more he will hate any offender against him.

Love and Hate are relative, you will only hate in as far as you love--if your love is benign, then so will your hate be benign, but if your love is great, then so will your hate; whether it be because you love yourself so much that you hate those who offend you so much, or whether you are so numb that your love is as worthless as your hate, you decide, but hate you will, and love you will: whether righteously or not, you will.

If you find there's nothing you hate, then I assure you, there is nothing you love.
 
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mlepfitjw

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God is love, that's why His hatred is perfect, for one can only hate if he loves.

Take for example a narcissist, he will love those who love him with a love proportionate to the love he has for himself, i.e., he will love them greatly so long as he loves himself greatly; conversely, he will hate those who offend him with hatred that is only proportionate to the love he feels for himself, thus, the more he loves himself, the more he will hate any offender against him.

Love and Hate are relative, you will only hate in as far as you love--if your love is benign, then so will your hate be benign, but if your love is great, then so will your hate; whether it be because you love yourself so much that you hate those who offend you so much, or whether you are so numb that your love is as worthless as your hate, you decide, but hate you will, and love you will: whether righteously or not, you will.

If you find there's nothing you hate, then I assure you, there is nothing you love.

You really believe that?

narcissist? They manipulate and abuse others by making things seem to be the others fault and lie alot from the studies I have done from that diagnosis. I believe I met one, and he hated me because of standing up for myself and not letting him abuse me.

So i dont know where you are going with this, and i forgave the guy and tried to talk to him again afterward.

I dont understand you but if you believe God hates people that doesn't really change my perspective of others... I kind of disliked the guy in front of me on the way home, or you can use the word hated, the thing is I dont go and lie and manipulate the person or don't explain that God does love them...

I hated myself for the butthead I use to be when I hated and wanted to kill my own mother, and was a selfish butthead too...

I have had so much hate and anger in my life, none of that brings forth the righteousness of God.

James 1:20

19My beloved brothers, understand this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger, 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteousness that God desires. 21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and every expression of evil, and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save your souls.


you can believe what you want, but Jesus Christ tells us to live our lives by loving our neighbours as ourself, and the bible says to live in peace with all people, forgive those who hate you.

Hate, and anger can kill you quicker than anything else.

Heart attack rating for outburst of anger = 2 hour % increase.

There are going to be many things that upset us and make us angry but that doesn't mean you hold on that ... you lay it the cross, let the anger out in a healthy way, rather than surpress it or have out burst of anger.

Like I said you believe that cool... :) Have a good day.
 
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Religiot

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You really believe that?

narcissist? They manipulate and abuse others by making things seem to be the others fault and lie alot from the studies I have done from that diagnosis. I believe I met one, and he hated me because of standing up for myself and not letting him abuse me.

So i dont know where you are going with this, and i forgave the guy and tried to talk to him again afterward.

I dont understand you but if you believe God hates people that doesn't really change my perspective of others... I kind of disliked the guy in front of me on the way home, or you can use the word hated, the thing is I dont go and lie and manipulate the person or don't explain that God does love them...

I hated myself for the butthead I use to be when I hated and wanted to kill my own mother, and was a selfish butthead too...

I have had so much hate and anger in my life, none of that brings forth the righteousness of God.

James 1:20

19My beloved brothers, understand this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger, 20for man’s anger does not bring about the righteousness that God desires. 21Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and every expression of evil, and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save your souls.


you can believe what you want, but Jesus Christ tells us to live our lives by loving our neighbours as ourself, and the bible says to live in peace with all people, forgive those who hate you.

Hate, and anger can kill you quicker than anything else.

Heart attack rating for outburst of anger = 2 hour % increase.

There are going to be many things that upset us and make us angry but that doesn't mean you hold on that ... you lay it the cross, let the anger out in a healthy way, rather than surpress it or have out burst of anger.

Like I said you believe that cool... :) Have a good day.
Wow, did you ever misunderstand me!

I used a narcissist to illustrate that their hatred of others stems from the love they have for themselves...

A narcissist loves himself more than anything else...

Their love is perfectly selfish.

To offend a narcissist, in even a minor way, is to incur deep hatred from them.

Brother, don't you see, that the hatred of narcissists is strictly in proportion to how much they love themselves.

To contrast the point I'm laboring to make, let me illustrate it this way:

If you step on the toe of a humble person, who considers others more than himself, because his love is for others, like Christ's love is, that person will not hate you, even if you hurt them, they may even apologize for being in your way, tho the fault is yours for not watching your step.

A narcissist, however, may take such great offense at you stepping on their toe, as to consider responding with violence against you, and may perhaps even curse you, even if it were their fault for being in the way.

I hope that I've explained myself better this time, and thanks for your patience, I do appreciate it.
 
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Saint Steven

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We all love, and we all hate, are our affections in conformance to God's will or the world's, that is the question.
The world is full of hate, so you tell me, which is God's will?

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
 
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Saint Steven

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Someone mentioned they would rather be walking on the streets of Gold in heaven, my response I dont believe there gonna be streets of Gold but okay. He just laughed and carried on with his business.
Why no streets of gold?

Here's a description of the New Jerusalem where the streets of gold idea comes from. Actually only one street.

Revelation 21:21
The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.
 
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Saint Steven

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Why no streets of gold?

Here's a description of the New Jerusalem where the streets of gold idea comes from. Actually only one street.

Revelation 21:21
The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.
This reminds me of a joke.

A rich man made a deal with God that he could bring a suitcase with him when he entered the afterlife. The day came for the man to die and there he was on his deathbed gripping the suitcase he had packed to go with him.

When he suddenly arrived at the pearly gates he was amazed to see that his suitcase was with him as God had promised. The angel at the gate, somewhat surprised, asked to see what he was bringing in. In the hopes of being ahead of everyone else financially, the man had loaded the suitcase with valuable gold bars. So, he was beaming when he showed the angel his luggage.

The angel took one look and said, "Really? You could have brought anything with you. Why did you bring pavement?"

@Agallagher
 
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Light of the East

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Why no streets of gold?

Here's a description of the New Jerusalem where the streets of gold idea comes from. Actually only one street.

Revelation 21:21
The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.

Interesting thought just occurred to me. I am of the opinion that Revelation is the closing of the Old Covenant as found in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. At the close of this book, we see the description of the New Jerusalem. For many centuries, literalists have taken this to mean that there are actually paved streets of gold in the next age.

But....knowing that Revelation is filled with apocalyptic imagery, I have to wonder this:

The gates of of the city were twelve pearls. Could it be (I'm just supposing here) that the "12 pearls" are the 12 Apostles who went to the farthest corners of the known world to open the way to heaven. After all, did not Jesus Himself speak of the "Pearl of Great Price" for which a man, discovering it, would sell all he owned to obtain it? Surely the Lord was not speaking about a real pearl from a real oyster. We have been taught that this pearl is the Gospel Message, the Good News of God's love in Christ and His death to set us free from death. A gate is an entry way into something, so in this symbolic sense, the 12 gates are the Apostles and the pearl which constitutes them is the Good News.

Could it be that the main street, the "street paved with gold" is the Christian life, the one golden way to enter into age-lasting life? A street leads somewhere. The Golden Street leads to age-lasting life as we walk in it and stay in it.

Just thinking out loud.
 
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The world is full of hate, so you tell me, which is God's will?

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Sorry, but the world is full of love, the love of itself, the love of money, the love of pleasures--all this love is against God, that's why the world hates God, because God commands that we love like He says, but instead the world loves itself more than God.

It is by this tremendous self-love, that the world has tremendous hate toward God, for without the love of self first, hatred of others is not possible.

The world's affections are inordinate, because they are against what God says.

Christian affections are ordinate, because they are for what God says.

God is life, yet the world takes life and abuses it.
God is love, yet the world takes love and abuses it.
God is liberty, yet the world takes liberty and abuses it.

God made the world very good, and now the world is very evil.

We can all choose this very day, whether we will continue to listen to what others say about God, or listen to what God says about Himself.

Love is only good, when ordinate.
Hate is only bad, when inordinate.

Man made religion is always wrong, just follow Christ, and say what He teaches; that way you will avoid leaning on your own understanding, and become wise, like Him--after all, it is His Spirit that indwells all who obey Him.
 
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