What would you do if you were POTUS and the courts ignored clear evidence of voter fraud ?

Desk trauma

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Yeah but unfortunately that reality still hasn't (and probably never will) sunk in for the most loyal of Trump loyalists.
I’m anxious to see how “Trump will remain in office.” gets spun when he is demonstrably no longer in office and how long the hope for military courts that will try all his enemies can be held on to.
 
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lasthero

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I’m anxious to see how “Trump will remain in office.” gets spun when he is demonstrably no longer in office and how long the hope for military courts that will try all his enemies can be held on to.

I'm pretty sure that, in four years, there will still be people saying that this was all a ruse by Trump to give the democrats power so that he could take it back, all part of this long gameplan, because...reasons.

It's really quite amazing. Very rarely in history have so many people thought a man was a genius despite all evidence to the contrary.
 
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perplexed

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The "pressure them" part seems a silly claim to make, but they might offer an explanation as to why particular courts ruled as they did, not just "there is no evidence." .


A video has posted where the judge explains why he did not trust some affidavits I will post some relevant text below, please provide a counter argument

In arguing that the affidavits — which were submitted via an online form — should be included, the Trump campaign’s attorney pointed to the CAPTCHA tool they used to filter out bots. He also said that the campaign excluded affidavits that were obviously spam, as well as those where the declarant didn’t match Maricopa County’s list of people who voted in-person on Election Day. (The lawsuit’s allegations concern those specific voters.)

The judge said that the campaign’s own admission that many people submitted apparently untruthful declarations, supposedly under penalty of perjury, showed that the way the campaign was collecting that evidence wasn’t in fact reliable.

“The fact that your process for obtaining these affidavits yielded affidavits that you yourself found to be false does not support a finding that this process generates reliable evidence,” Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Daniel Kiley said. “This is concerning.”

As he considered whether to toss out the affidavits in question, Judge Kiley showed increasing skepticism towards how the campaign collected its evidence and what that campaign’s own vetting of that evidence showed about its reliability.

“So, some of the affidavits that your solicitation received were from people that you can prove were not in fact voters on Election Day,” Kiley said. “You can prove that those affidavits are in fact false?”

The Trump campaign insisted that those affidavits weren’t necessarily false — maybe they were filed by people who watched their spouses vote that day and observed the tabulator issues — but acknowledged that they had them filtered out of the batch they filed in court nonetheless. Langhofer also admitted that they filtered out those declarants who were deemed obviously fake, because they used a fictitious name or profanity in their email addresses.

“To clarify … your solicitation of witnesses yielded some affidavits from people — sworn affidavits — that you yourself determined are clearly false and ‘spam’ as you put it?” the judge said.

After the lawyer confirmed that characterization, the judge then pointed out that the affidavits the campaign did submit were ones that they merely could not prove to be false.

Langhofer tried to suggest that because the declarations were submitted under punishment perjury, they could be trusted. But then the judge pointed out that the ones the campaign itself deemed to be fake were submitted under that disclaimer as well.

“If your process for gathering declarations has yielded sworn statements under oath that your investigation has determined to be false, that doesn’t give me any reason to believe that your process is one that generates trustworthy affidavits,” Kiley said. “It simply generated affidavits that you can’t prove are not true. That’s not the same as being trustworthy.”
 
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SimplyMe

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A video has posted where the judge explains why he did not trust some affidavits I will post some relevant text below, please provide a counter argument

In arguing that the affidavits — which were submitted via an online form — should be included, the Trump campaign’s attorney pointed to the CAPTCHA tool they used to filter out bots. He also said that the campaign excluded affidavits that were obviously spam, as well as those where the declarant didn’t match Maricopa County’s list of people who voted in-person on Election Day. (The lawsuit’s allegations concern those specific voters.)

The judge said that the campaign’s own admission that many people submitted apparently untruthful declarations, supposedly under penalty of perjury, showed that the way the campaign was collecting that evidence wasn’t in fact reliable.

“The fact that your process for obtaining these affidavits yielded affidavits that you yourself found to be false does not support a finding that this process generates reliable evidence,” Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Daniel Kiley said. “This is concerning.”

As he considered whether to toss out the affidavits in question, Judge Kiley showed increasing skepticism towards how the campaign collected its evidence and what that campaign’s own vetting of that evidence showed about its reliability.

“So, some of the affidavits that your solicitation received were from people that you can prove were not in fact voters on Election Day,” Kiley said. “You can prove that those affidavits are in fact false?”

The Trump campaign insisted that those affidavits weren’t necessarily false — maybe they were filed by people who watched their spouses vote that day and observed the tabulator issues — but acknowledged that they had them filtered out of the batch they filed in court nonetheless. Langhofer also admitted that they filtered out those declarants who were deemed obviously fake, because they used a fictitious name or profanity in their email addresses.

“To clarify … your solicitation of witnesses yielded some affidavits from people — sworn affidavits — that you yourself determined are clearly false and ‘spam’ as you put it?” the judge said.

After the lawyer confirmed that characterization, the judge then pointed out that the affidavits the campaign did submit were ones that they merely could not prove to be false.

Langhofer tried to suggest that because the declarations were submitted under punishment perjury, they could be trusted. But then the judge pointed out that the ones the campaign itself deemed to be fake were submitted under that disclaimer as well.

“If your process for gathering declarations has yielded sworn statements under oath that your investigation has determined to be false, that doesn’t give me any reason to believe that your process is one that generates trustworthy affidavits,” Kiley said. “It simply generated affidavits that you can’t prove are not true. That’s not the same as being trustworthy.”

I think the video works better:

 
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RDKirk

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The "culture war", as some refer to it as, is a very complex issue...and one where entities on both sides have been culprits in "raising the temperature" so to speak.

In some aspects, Trump is/was a cause of some of the turmoil, in other cases, he was a symptom.

Throughout time, there's always been the classic battle of "progressive vs. conservative", with the Overton Window moving slowly and gradually toward the progressive side over time.

Typically, the move toward progress on 'hot button issues' spanned a time period 30-60 years for the cycle of:
1) inception and raising awareness ->
2) gaining more broad support ->
3) changing of cultural attitudes ->
4) those cultural changes being reflected in meaningful legislation.
(whether it be the Women's suffrage movement, marijuana legalization efforts, same sex marriage efforts, etc...)


However, sometime over the past few decades, the timeline demands from some on the progressive side (in particular, many in the younger demographics) changed drastically. It went from the aforementioned steps and timeline...to completely skipping steps 2 and 3, and basically having the attitude "We found this thing that's an injustice, so we want things changed by next Monday, and if it's not, everyone who's objecting is an outdated, narrow-minded bigot"

That instantly creates a bulwark mentality from the other side...and when that happens, their primary focus becomes "How can I stop the other side from making this swift, radical change that I don't feel very comfortable with?"...even for changes where, given enough time and exposure, they may become more receptive to.

For instance, if you look at these two issues:
338207_d643453efe3391a206ce64f9762f6afc.png


The meaningful changes did end up occurring...but it was only after there was that broadening of support and organic cultural changes. They didn't occur by 18-25's demanding that things be changed next week, and resorting to "in your face activism" when they weren't.


So basically the powder keg is created by the elements one side claiming "We want this thing (that we know half the population still isn't too sure about) and we want it right now! Anyone who doesn't agree with us is narrow-minded, their opinions should be disregarded, and they shouldn't have a seat at the table", and the other side going on the immediate defensive by rallying around a demagogue who claims he's going to fight back against it, but spends half of his time trying to publicly delegitimize any institution that calls him out on his nonsense, and then tells his followers that "that institution over there is part of the radical agenda you elected me to fight against".

Or, a more brief way of putting it, I see the recipe that created our current powder keg as:
- Impatience and dismissiveness from the left.
- Trump playing on the defensiveness of his followers and attempting to make them even more defensive than they already were.

I don't think I'm alone in my thought that, had there not been a massive push for rapid cultural shifts (at a pace that far exceeds other similar shifts), woke-ness, and cancel culture in the years leading up to 2016, it probably would've been a different, "regular", republican on the ticket in 2016.

I think it's interesting that individuals (and the groups those individuals represent) that absolutely despised Martin Luther King 50 years ago are quoting him now.

Their morality has finally today gotten to the point it should have been fifty years ago.
 
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Kentonio

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I don't think so, and I'll explain why. In 2016, Michael Moore predicted Trump would win. It's the reasons he gave that are pertinent, because they still exist today - the destruction of the middle class. Per Moore, and I think he's correct - it was never about Trump, it was a vote for "the enemy of my enemy". Here's an excerpt:

"It's why every beaten down, nameless, forgotten working stiff who used to be part of what was called the middle class loves Trump. He is the human molotov coctail that they've been waiting for. The human hand grenade that they can legally throw into the system that stole their lives from them. ... They see that the elites who ruined their lives hate Trump. Corporate America hates Trump. Wall Street hates Trump. The career politicians hate Trump. The media hates Trump, after they loved him and created him ... the enemy of my enemy is who I'm voting for on November 8th."

So Trump may be gone, but the "enemy" is still present. Add to the enemy list the 10 Republicans voting for the impeachment, and the others who failed to support Trump, now the Republican party itself is on the list (along with so-called "conservative judges" like Roberts). In the face of this, I see enough discouraged conservative refusing to vote for Republican that the party can never win via the electoral again, and they certainly can't win the popular. Ann Coulter had predicted Trump would be the last Republican president, and I think she's right.

But I think more than that, the party itself is dead. Without the middle class, there will be no wealth to protect - which was the primary draw of the Republican party. This is why young, idealistic people with no jobs or $ start out liberal, but when they become successful and have wealth to protect, they tend to switch parties. But in a gig society, where there is no middle class, there is no wealth to protect and thus no party draw.

Sanders was the solution, not Trump. But then the right had to fall for the old scaremongering about ‘commies’ that the rich come out with every time anyone threatens their wealth grab.

Btw, Moore was right that time but it’s worth bearing in mind he regularly predicts the Dems will lose to try and shock them into trying harder to GOTV. He gave similar dire warnings about Obama losing to Romney too.
 
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A_Thinker

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The question really needs to be understood as asking what would the apparently losing candidate do if those agencies were not willing to act as they should?
Who would qualify to judge that that is true ?
 
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A_Thinker

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I would call a press conference and present that damning evidence directly to the people in hopes that a groundswell of public opinion would cause the authorities to prosecute all those that perpetrated fraud and would cause the various state legislatures to craft laws making such fraud impossible in the future.
I would point out that it is unlikely that the public could pressure corrupt authorities to do what is right. You could only be successful in getting them to cover their asses.

A true lover of truth and justice, ... when faced with such a situation as has been described by the OP, ... would understand that more is at stake than the winning or losing of an election, and, ... as such, would take the loss ... and dedicate his/her life's work to identifying ... and reversing the sources of rot in his/her society ...
 
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A_Thinker

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In a case of such magnitude and longterm importance, a case brought to SCOTUS by a large number of state Attorneys General, you'd think that the Court would have had the courage not to simply turn it aside.
The Supreme Court does not act on the basis of "courage". They act on the basis of "US Constitutional law" (i.e. what is written).

For instance, given that the US Constitution cedes the running of the presidential election to the STATES, the Court correctly understood that any given STATE has no standing to challenge any other STATE in the matter of how that state chose its state electors.

The state only answers to itself ... and its people. If Texas wanted to pull its Electoral votes out of a hat, that would fine according to the US Constitution. Of course, Texas state officials might then be subject to the political wrath of their own citizenry (or not).

The only real course of action for Trump's legal team was to sue a state ... for not complying with their own electoral laws, ... and/or to contend that such electoral laws were fraudulently conceived ... and that such disadvantaged their client.

It is a tough sell ... to argue that a state hasn't been true to itself.

And even then, the ultimate decisive power lies within the STATE Supreme Courts.
 
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A_Thinker

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There have certainly been cases of states suppressing votes in one way or another. In some cases there have been ways to deal at the Federal level. If that doesn’t work either, there’s not that much you can do.
Yes ... state voting/election issues could be addressed by Federal legislation, ... which, of course, would be primarily preemptive in nature, rather than corrective.
 
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A_Thinker

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Trump was - and still is - one of those elites. He's the stereotypical elite. He's not a friend of the middle class, he's spent the better part of his life spitting all over them.
Trump is not one of the "moral elite", ... who Trump followers hate most of all ...
 
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hedrick

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The only real course of action for Trump's legal team was to sue a state ... for not complying with their own electoral laws, ... and/or to contend that such electoral laws were fraudulently conceived ... and that such disadvantaged their client.

It is a tough sell ... to argue that a state hasn't been true to itself.

And even then, the ultimate decisive power lies within the STATE Supreme Courts.
They tried that. The Supreme Court rejected it.
 
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KCfromNC

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grasping the after wind

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I would point out that it is unlikely that the public could pressure corrupt authorities to do what is right. You could only be successful in getting them to cover their asses.

A true lover of truth and justice, ... when faced with such a situation as has been described by the OP, ... would understand that more is at stake than the winning or losing of an election, and, ... as such, would take the loss ... and dedicate his/her life's work to identifying ... and reversing the sources of rot in his/her society ...

If the public was of a mind to oppose corruption then I am quite sure that they could see to it that there was an end to widespread corruption. Unfortunately, one can only conclude that the majority of the public approves of corruption for one reason or the other.
 
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Freodin

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If the public was of a mind to oppose corruption then I am quite sure that they could see to it that there was an end to widespread corruption. Unfortunately, one can only conclude that the majority of the public approves of corruption for one reason or the other.
A lot of people care about "winning" a lot more than they care about "corruption"... and so "corruption" - or better: the accusations of corruption - only arise when they don't "win".

And it is for this very same reason that there seem to be a lot of people, especially in the USA, who do not really care about "democracy".
 
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grasping the after wind

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A lot of people care about "winning" a lot more than they care about "corruption"... and so "corruption" - or better: the accusations of corruption - only arise when they don't "win".

And it is for this very same reason that there seem to be a lot of people, especially in the USA, who do not really care about "democracy".

When government is thoroughly corrupt no matter who or what party is in control of it what exactly would constitute winning? As I have never won anything in politics, I cannot claim that your accusation is incorrect based upon having never had the chance to complain about corruption after winning. However, I have been consistent in complaining about corruption for over 40 years no matter who is seen to be winning at the time. As for democracy, I am for it to a degree . I don't see anyone proposing that we actually try it though. I wouldn't be for a strictly 50.00001% majority rule democracy but a democracy that require a 65 to 75 % vote consensus to do anything would be fine with me. Think of how many fewer foreign wars we would get ourselves bogged down in !
 
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Freodin

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When government is thoroughly corrupt no matter who or what party is in control of it what exactly would constitute winning?
"Winning" in that case would be "getting what you want for yourself".
Perhaps my perception is wrong here, too biased. (And it is the perspective of an outsider, note that... I am not an American.)
But as I see it - and as many other people, Americans and others, see it: too many people are too much focused on the famous "I have mine, f*** yours!" attitude. And perhaps even this attitude's brattier little sibling: "I don't care how bad I am, as long as you have it worse."

As I have never won anything in politics, I cannot claim that your accusation is incorrect based upon having never had the chance to complain about corruption after winning.
The only way to never win anything in politics is when you don't participate. In all other cases, you "win" at least the satisfying feeling that "your side" won... or that "the other side lost".

However, I have been consistent in complaining about corruption for over 40 years no matter who is seen to be winning at the time. As for democracy, I am for it to a degree . I don't see anyone proposing that we actually try it though. I wouldn't be for a strictly 50.00001% majority rule democracy but a democracy that require a 65 to 75 % vote consensus to do anything would be fine with me. Think of how many fewer foreign wars we would get ourselves bogged down in !
I am sure I said "a lot of people" in my original post... yep, indeed, I did. I am a little lost why you concentrate on your own person so much here. I am quite sure that you are not "a lot of people"... and that doesn't mean that you could not have been one of those "lot", or, vice versa, that you are the sole exception. Just that, regardless of whatever you personally do, think or feel, there are still "a lot of people" who fit my description.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I think it's interesting that individuals (and the groups those individuals represent) that absolutely despised Martin Luther King 50 years ago are quoting him now.

Their morality has finally today gotten to the point it should have been fifty years ago.

Fits in with the timeline I mentioned above...

Big cultural shifts are things that tend to happen organically over a period of time...and rarely work (if at all) with a demand for a top-down forced approach.

While governments can enforce certain conduct rules, truly legislating morality is nearly impossible. For instance, the government can put on paper rules that dictate that one can't engage in hiring discrimination. However, if a hiring manager wants to be discriminatory, they'll still do it, they just won't be as overt about it. They'll just say "it wasn't racial, I just felt the white guy was more qualified and thought he did better during the interview"

Certain approaches and forms of activism (even if coming from a side that's being "morally right" on an issue) have a backfire effect and can actually make certain changes take longer.

For instance, one can be morally right by being on the side of anti-discrimination for certain marginalized groups. However, if their approach to activism is "I'm going to find a social media post this one celeb made 8 years ago when they were in high school, and use that to try to get them fired now to show that behavior won't be tolerated!" isn't helpful.

Nor are some of the demands for such a level of "PC purity" that would require a massive group of people to change the expressions they use or their entire way of thinking overnight.

Obama hit the nail on the head when he made these comments.

 
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