Homosexuality the early churches view should be ours

FutureAndAHope · Jan 18, 2021

BobRyan said:
Agreed.

"sin is transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4

Where that law includes the one where "honor your father and mother" is the "first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2

Agreed. But in the texts already given here #3 we see that slavery to sin is the initial condition not merely of 'some' -- but of all. That is the state of mankind before accepting the Gospel. We inherit it from birth.

yes, from birth we are drawn towards sin.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 18, 2021

parousia70 said:
Everyone knows a person can Be gay, and be celibate. The state of being gay is not synonymous with participating in Homosexual sex.

This again is a worldly view. The bible tells us in Christ, we are a "New Creation", we have God's Spirit, which gives us power over the lower nature. A Christain who was gay, may be tempted to sin, tempted to the old life. But the whole celibacy argument is silly, and not in line with scripture. The bible says a Christian we "can not sin, for God's seed abides in him".

parousia70 · Jan 18, 2021

hedrick said:
Certainly you couldn't diagnose someone as alcoholic without abuse at some point. But the term alcoholic is often used of someone subject to the addiction even if they are abstinent.

To my Knowledge, the term alcoholic is never applied to an individual who has never drank alcohol.

Certainly, once becoming an alcoholic, most scholarship agrees you are always an alcoholic, regardless of if you continue to drink alcohol or abstain.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 18, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
This again is a worldly view. The bible tells us in Christ, we are a "New Creation", we have God's Spirit, which gives us power over the lower nature. A Christain who was gay, may be tempted to sin, tempted to the old life. But the whole celibacy argument is silly, and not in line with scripture. The bible says a Christ "can not sin, for God's seed abides in him".

The conscience is cleansed at the throne of grace thru a mediator, Jesus Christ, according to provisions made in their ‘marriage vows’ or betrothal. Anyone’s conscience, at the flesh level, is scripturally open to allowances. Not everyone is a eunuch either, so why is fleshly considerations anyone’s business? It seems an individual choice that is between them and their maker and what their maker has to say about the spiritual nature that gets rejected by smaller choices than that.

parousia70 · Jan 18, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
This again is a worldly view. The bible tells us in Christ, we are a "New Creation", we have God's Spirit, which gives us power over the lower nature.

I agree.

A Christain who was gay, may be tempted to sin, tempted to the old life.

Was gay?
Can you Name even one Christian who "was gay"?
Are you speaking of yourself perhaps?

But the whole celibacy argument is silly, and not in line with scripture. The bible says a Christian we "can not sin, for God's seed abides in him".

Celibacy is not in line with scripture?

Is Celibacy a Sin?

What chapter and verse prohibits celibacy?

parousia70 · Jan 18, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
But only serious deviations from the law had the death penalty, as we see gay relationships do.

How many have you put to death?

FutureAndAHope · Jan 18, 2021

~Cassia~ said:
The conscience is cleansed at the throne of grace thru a mediator, Jesus Christ, according to provisions made in their ‘marriage vows’ or betrothal. Anyone’s conscience, at the flesh level, is scripturally open to allowances. Not everyone is a eunuch either, so why is fleshly considerations anyone’s business? It seems an individual choice that is between them and their maker and what their maker has to say about the spiritual nature that gets rejected by smaller choices than that.

No when it comes to sexual immorality, that is the ONE thing the apostles said gentiles must avoid.

Act 15:29 that ye abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, it shall be well with you. Fare ye well.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 18, 2021

parousia70 said:
Can you Name even one Christian who "was gay"?

I know of converting gay Christains.

Celibacy is not in line with scripture?

Is Celibacy a Sin?

What chapter and verse prohibits celibacy?

It is not so much that it is forbidden, it is just not God's way, God does not torment gay's, He gives then a new life in Christ.

hedrick · Jan 18, 2021

To be honest, lack of continuity with the early church doesn’t bother me on issues of gender and sex. There’s lots of wisdom in the tradition, but not in this area.

I’m not speaking here of Paul. He thought it was best to be unmarried in order to be free for service, but there was nothing wrong in sex for him. But Augustine was offended by sex, because the emotions involved, and even the physical effects, weren't under rational control. For him, it was only justified by the need to procreate. This approach continued in traditional Christianity. Homosexuality, of course, is the ultimate in non-procreative sex.

Jesus, however, saw the purpose of marriage as two becoming one flesh. That’s referred to by theologians as the “unitive” purpose for sex. Even in traditional theology, it was fine for people who for various reasons couldn’t have children to marry. So Jesus’ perspective wasn’t entirely lost. But the unhealthy view of sex from Augustine and other early Christians persisted in various forms.

So saying that this is non-traditional doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 18, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
No when it comes to sexual immorality, that is the ONE thing the apostles said gentiles must avoid.

Act 15:29 that ye abstain from things sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication; from which if ye keep yourselves, it shall be well with you. Fare ye well.

From fornication encompasses the full nature of the argument.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 18, 2021

parousia70 said:
How many have you put to death?

What are you talking about? None. The purpose of the commandment was to prevent sin occurring, not to harshly penalize it.

Here is my discorse on this as quoted from my webiste:

So if God is love, why do certain scriptures in the Old Testament Law appear very harsh, surely a good God would not do anything harsh. Well the reason is preventative, as I will show from scripture. The law is put in place in an attempt to prevent crime. Like we have jail and fines to try to deter crime. Obviously the stricter the punishment then the less likely a person is to offend. We will now move onto a case study from scripture to show the law is in fact preventative. Take the following law:

"'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. Lev 20:10

So if you read that verse alone you might think well God is fairly judgmental and bitter, he just wants to kill people for weakness, and sin. But what we find in he rest of scripture is that God never put one adulterer to death, in fact he pardoned them. Take the following three examples:

a) David the guy who slaid Goliath had sex with another mans wife, he then even had the husband killed, to cover up his sin. Yet the prophet of God who God sent to tell David off, a man who knew God's character and had conversations with God, let him live, and did not ask any one to kill him. The prophet did not agree with his sin, in fact he said God would curse him for a time for it.

b) Jesus pardoned a woman caught in the act of adultery, saying to the angry mob about to stone her to death,

"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Joh 8:7

only saying to her when they all left

"Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

c) Joseph was called "righteous", or good by the apostles because he refused to have his girlfriend put to death (made a public example) when it was found out she was pregnant.

And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.. Mat 1:19

So we can see clearly God never put an adulterer to death, as the apostles said

He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2Co 3:6

parousia70 · Jan 18, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
No when it comes to sexual immorality, that is the ONE thing the apostles said gentiles must avoid.
.

Excellent.
Please provide any proof you have that you do not participate in sexual immorality.
Especially the lust part.... Please provide whatever proof you can that you do not have lust in your heart.
I'd like to take your word for it, but, like you, I don't believe we should be trusting other people to manage their own morality.

Like you, I believe that Other people require our observation, assertations, recommendations and corrective preaching before we can be satisfied they are operating in a morally upstanding manner.

CatsRule2020 · Jan 18, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Please move this if it is inappropriate for this forum.

I would like to contest for the faith.

The basic premise of the World, or the secular society, is the following premise:

Homosexuality is a biological issue, as such a homosexual has no control over their preference, they are born homosexual, as such it is wrong to class it as a sin, or something wrong.

This however is not the truth. It is an opinion of man. God’s word, or the way he describes the sin is entirely different. Any church that accepts the sin of homosexuality has deviated away from God’s word and seeks to please man.

O you who are false to God, do you not see that the friends of this world are not God's friends? Every man desiring to be a friend of this world makes himself a hater of God. - Jas 4:4

So what does God’s word say about homosexuality. I will give a brief description of it here before moving to the bible’s description of it.

The bible basically says that the sin shows it’s presence the most where a person has chosen to remove themselves from the knowledge of God. Where they have chosen to ignore his commands, and call consistently. They have chosen, witchcraft, sexual sin, hatred, unloving attitudes, over God’s call to live with restraint, and true gentleness. As such the worlds view that homosexuality is love, is far removed from the truth, it actually shows a rejection of God’s love.

It is not however a sin that is unpardonable, meaning that a person can leave that life style and receive God. But no man may live in the sin and think they have the forgiveness of God. For God lists it as an abomination.

The civil law of God given by Moses, states:

And if a man has sex relations with a man, the two of them have done a disgusting thing: let them be put to death; their blood will be on them. - Lev 20:13

This shows that God does not want people to be homosexual, any law that promotes homosexuality is against God. One of the primary reason is that God has shown through scripture that homosexuality manifests it’s self in the rejection of God, and his commands. Now the bible says that God is love. That his attributes are:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, a quiet mind, kind acts, well-doing, faith, Gentle behaviour, control over desires: against such there is no law. Gal 5:22-23

A person who has moved into the sin of homosexuality according to the bible has in the past been exposed to God’s love and word, but have chosen to ignore it and rather give into passion, and lust. As such, being a God rejector, and a hater of what is good, should have no part in church ministry.

Because, having the knowledge of God, they did not give glory to God as God, and did not give praise, but their minds were full of foolish things, and their hearts, being without sense, were made dark. Seeming to be wise, they were in fact foolish, And by them the glory of the eternal God was changed and made into the image of man who is not eternal, and of birds and beasts and things which go on the earth. For this reason God gave them up to the evil desires of their hearts, working shame in their bodies with one another: Because by them the true word of God was changed into that which is false, and they gave worship and honour to the thing which is made, and not to him who made it, to whom be blessing for ever. So be it. For this reason God gave them up to evil passions, and their women were changing the natural use into one which is unnatural: And in the same way the men gave up the natural use of the woman and were burning in their desire for one another, men doing shame with men, and getting in their bodies the right reward of their evil-doing. And because they had not the mind to keep God in their knowledge, God gave them up to an evil mind, to do those things which are not right; Being full of all wrongdoing, evil, desire for the goods of others, hate, envy, putting to death, fighting, deceit, cruel ways, evil talk, and false statements about others; Hated by God, full of pride, without respect, full of loud talk, given to evil inventions, not honouring father or mother, Without knowledge, not true to their undertakings, unkind, having no mercy: Who, though they have knowledge of the law of God, that the fate of those who do these things is death, not only go on doing these things themselves, but give approval to those who do them. - Rom 1:21-32

I think that any subject involving sex or sexuality should not be put up for discussion until all the participants know the Old and New Testament meaning of the word fornication. It's meaning has never changed. However, translators have attempted to change it's meaning through the centuries in order to accommodate the more well to do in the church.

Also, it helps greatly to be aware of the historical setting, the backdrop, in which the Old and New Testaments were written. Pagan idol worship temples were everywhere. Every kind of sex was commanded by that deity. Some deities emphasized same sex with the priest or priestess, and depending on the location, the participants of that pagan religion were commanded to wear the clothing of the opposite sex.
When the Apostle Paul penned (Romans 1:18-32) he was describing what this process led to. It ended up affecting not only the families of those participants, but the entire community.
Homosexuality has always existed. Heterosexuality has always existed. The only time either became sinful was when either was expressed in worship to a pagan deity. Idolatry.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 18, 2021

~Cassia~ said:
From fornication encompasses the full nature of the argument.

I am having trouble understading your english. But I think you are saying that verse does not apply to gay sex.

Neostarwcc · Jan 18, 2021

parousia70 said:
Care to guess how many people you creep out and are disgusted by you?

Do you think its' like ..5 people?
maybe 10?
50?

What creeps me out is the obsession with providing opinions and admonitions about what consenting adults, who are not you, do with one another, or themselves, in the bedroom.

That, in and of itself, strikes me as disordered behavior in need of loving council and correction.

But, if normalizing that obsession is the direction we're headed, please go ahead and set up a video stream in your bedroom, PM me the log in information, and I'll begin observing your private bedroom behavior so I can determine if you are in violation of any scriptural sexual standards and if so, I'll make sure to point out publicly how disgusted I am with your violations, and then apply any corrective action I deem necessary for the benefit of your soul.

Don't worry, I'll do so Lovingly, of course.

Lots of people are creeped out by me. For one I'm a Calvinist and that seems to make people squeamish and for two I'm a nerd who likes to talk online a lot and about technology and stuff. Plus I'm obese and people don't like that.

Idk I guess I just wanted to confess that they do make me uncomfortable but like I said we should be treating them the same. I'm not creeped out by blacks or racist in any way but for some reason they (gays) just make me really uncomfortable.

But hey, one of my best friends sleeps with men. We're able to be friends despite that. I do tell him that I don't approve and he knows I'm a Christian and that makes him uncomfortable but we still manage to be friends.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 18, 2021

parousia70 said:
Excellent.
Please provide any proof you have that you do not participate in sexual immorality.
Especially the lust part.... Please provide whatever proof you can that you do not have lust in your heart.
I'd like to take your word for it, but, like you, I don't believe we should be trusting other people to manage their own morality.

Like you, I believe that Other people require our observation, assertations, recommendations and corrective preaching before we can be satisfied they are operating in a morally upstanding manner.

I do not lust. I have a wife, and she is the one I look to for my needs. But why in God's name do you need to know that.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Jan 18, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
I am having trouble understading your english. But I think you are saying that verse does not apply to gay sex.

As the poster above said “ The only time either became sinful was when either was expressed in worship to a pagan deity. Idolatry.” It is applicable to becoming adultery when it involves a turning away from God. Adultery/fornication/idolatry/breaking covenant with the True Husband/ was the warning from the Jerusalem Council to the body of believers.

parousia70 · Jan 18, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
I do not lust. I have a wife, and she is the one I look to for my needs.

Again, I'd like to take your word for it, but since you could be lying, I can't.
I'll need something more tangible for evidence.

But why in God's name do you need to know that.

I need to know in order to stay consistent with our mutual belief that other people can't be trusted to manage their own moral decision making, especially when it comes to sex. They require constant correction and reproof from the Body of Christ.
For example, we know that scripture prohibits oral sex between married couples as it is an abomination unto the Lord.

Therefore I'll need some tangible assurances, like video evidence, or a signed affidavit, or the like, from you and your wife that you do not participate in that sort of sexual immorality, or, I will recommend you submit to corrective teaching to rid you of those demons so you can work your way back on the side of favor with our Lord..
You soul may be in jeopardy, and my admonition against your moral depravity (in absence of your ability to prove otherwise) may be your path back to righteousness.

SilverBear · Jan 18, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Please move this if it is inappropriate for this forum.

I would like to contest for the faith.

The basic premise of the World, or the secular society, is the following premise:

Homosexuality is a biological issue, as such a homosexual has no control over their preference, they are born homosexual, as such it is wrong to class it as a sin, or something wrong.

This however is not the truth.

yeah it is the truth, the fact you don't like it doesn't turn the truth into something else.

And if a man has sex relations with a man, the two of them have done a disgusting thing: let them be put to death; their blood will be on them. - Lev 20:13

This shows that God does not want people to be homosexual, any law that promotes homosexuality is against God. One of the primary reason is that God has shown through scripture that homosexuality manifests it’s self in the rejection of God, and his commands.

SO exactly how many homosexuals have you personally killed?

or do you reject God's command?

parousia70 · Jan 18, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
I know of converting gay Christains.

Name one.

Homosexuality the early churches view should be ours

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