How do you : "Fall from Grace"

Eilat said:

The prodigal son is not born again.
Is a story, a parable.

If you are born again, then you are always born again...

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Context is important. All three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, "This Man receives sinners and eats with them." (vs. 2) Those who use the parable of the prodigal son to prove that born again believers can lose their salvation argue that the prodigal son was spiritually alive, then spiritually died (lost his salvation) and was spiritually alive again (regained his salvation) from Luke 15:32 based on certain translations which read: ..thy brother was dead, and is alive AGAIN (KJV) ..for your brother was dead and is alive AGAIN (NKJV) ..this brother of yours was dead and is alive AGAIN. (NIV)

Yet others will argue that in this parable, being made "alive AGAIN" foreshadows the "born AGAIN" experience that Jesus spoke of in John 3:3. Of course Jesus wasn't talking about being born again spiritually again and again. We are born once physically and born "again" once spiritually.

I find it interesting that certain translations of Luke 15:32 simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NAS).

Eilat said:

THE "fallen from Grace....who is the "enduring" worker, the "commandment keeper", the "torah keeper" the "holding unto my faith as my salvation" keeper......all of these are the same deceptive STRONGHOLD.......its all trying to make yourself RIGHT with God, trying to keep yourself saved..= by whatever you think gets it done that YOU ARE TO DO = that you believe accomplishes this end result.
Understand, that whatever you are trusting in to get you into heaven is now your savior, and if you believe that you can lose your salvation, then this means you not actually Trusting in Jesus to keep you saved.
You are actually contradicting Grace, and are in opposition to this verse, which is to literally be in opposition to the Cross.
Philippians 1:6

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The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Paul would not have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it was all over for them. In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

5thKingdom said:

So WHICH IS IT?
Can a person who is saved (regenerated, "indwelt", born again)
ever LOSE that salvation as Luke 8:13 and Matthew 13:20-21 seem to teach? Or, were those people in Luke 8 and Matthew 13 never REALLY saved at all?

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Those people were never really saved at all.

Some will say... but the passage says "they believed for a while".

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Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8 and Matthew 13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved?"

His heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Yet his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" in a shallow way and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It can't.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

But Scripture also says Satan and the Demons "believe"... and
they KNOW there is a time when Jesus will "torment them",
yet nobody claims Satan and the Demons are saved.

So "believing" Jesus is the Son of God does NOT
mean men (or Satan or demons) are saved.

Jas 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well:
the devils also believe, and tremble.

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Amen! The same Greek word for believe (pisteuo) is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe"mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

Danthemailman said:

Those people were never really saved at all.

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Yes, I know. That was my argument all along.
The question was asked sarcastically.

But I have read some of your posts and find them sound,
so I appreciate the post - as it confirms my argument in a
more comprehensive manner than I presented.

Jim

BNR32FAN said:

John 6 took place very early in Jesus’ ministry and at that point Judas was a devil. I don’t think he ever truly believed.

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The point from John 6:66-67 is that disciples CAN turn from Christ and walk no more with Him INCLUDING all of His Apostles.

Butterball1 said:

The point from John 6:66-67 is that disciples CAN turn from Christ and walk no more with Him INCLUDING all of His Apostles.

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I absolutely agree with you friend. John 15:1-10 is very clear on this subject. Nevertheless I still don’t believe that Judas was ever a true believer. I believe he was a tare planted by the evil one and allowed by God because he was foreseen to fulfill the prophecy.

Butterball1 said:

The point from John 6:66-67 is that disciples CAN turn from Christ and walk no more with Him INCLUDING all of His Apostles.

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No, the POINT of John 6:65-66 is NOT that (unsaved) disciples
can abandon Jesus... although that is true, in fact the Bible says
unsaved "tares" will depart from the church to MANIFEST that
they were never saved "wheat".


The REAL POINT is the disciples realized that Jesus was teaching
salvation by ELECTION [v37. v39, v43] and, like most men today
they didn't want a salvation plan where God is Sovereign and elects
who HE will, based only on His Good Purpose and NOT on anything
that person would do during their lifetime. Like most men today,
the disciples that abandoned Jesus wanted a (synergistic) salvation
plan where THEY could initiate their own salvation. But that is just
not the way REAL (monergistic) Sovereign Grace works, as was
made clear to Nicodemus, who ALSO wanted to DO SOMETHING
to be saved ("born again").


Joh 3:4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?


Nicodemus, like the disciples who abandoned Jesus when they
realized He was teaching salvation by the Sovereign Grace of God
("election"), and like most men today who demand a synergistic
salvation plan... the hard TRUTH about the monergistic Gospel is
just not something they can understand or accept.


Joh 3:9
Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


Now, WHY do I say they cannot understand or accept the Gospel?
Because that is EXACTLY what Jesus taught. Jesus was very clear
some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand"
the Gospel or "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven".
These people (which are the vast majority of "Christians" being
unsaved "tares" and ALL those outside the church) are not able
to ever accept the (monergistic) Gospel of Sovereign Grace...
most (in the church) don't have "eyes to see" or "ears to hear"
because they are unsaved "tares" NEVER MEANT to be saved.


The Bible is VERY CLEAR that being "born again" is based ONLY
on the Will of God... and has NOTHING to do with the will of men.
We can see this reality (if we have "eyes to see") throughout the
Scriptures. Here are just a FEW of those passages:


Joh 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of [the Will of] God.


Rom 9:1516
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is NOT of him that willeth, NOR of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.


John 15:16
Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you,
and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,
and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask
of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad,
and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were
ordained to eternal life believed.


2Th 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the BEGINNING chosen you to salvation through sanctification of
the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Eph 1:4
According as he hath CHOSEN US in him
before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy
and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,
according to the good pleasure of his will,


So, the ISSUE is not whether "disciples" can abandon Jesus
because we already KNOW the majority of the "church" are
unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined to eternal torment.
Instead, the ISSUE of John 6 is that His "disciples" abandoned
Him for a VERY SPECIFIC REASON.


If you cannot discern the VERY SPECIFIC REASON causing
His disciples to abandon Him then you cannot understand the
primary TEACHING of John 6. It is really as simple as that.
The teaching of John 6 is NOT that unsaved people depart,
it is that salvation is by the Sovereign ELECTION of God.


Jim

BNR32FAN said:

I absolutely agree with you friend. John 15:1-10 is very clear on this subject.

Click to expand...

No, the POINT of John 6:65-66 is NOT that (unsaved) disciples
can abandon Jesus... although that is true, in fact the Bible says
unsaved "tares" will depart from the church to MANIFEST that
they were never saved "wheat".


The REAL POINT is the disciples realized that Jesus was teaching
salvation by ELECTION [v37. v39, v43] and, like most men today
they didn't want a salvation plan where God is Sovereign and elects
who HE will, based only on His Good Purpose and NOT on anything
that person would do during their lifetime. Like most men today,
the disciples that abandoned Jesus wanted a (synergistic) salvation
plan where THEY could initiate their own salvation. But that is just
not the way REAL (monergistic) Sovereign Grace works, as was
made clear to Nicodemus, who ALSO wanted to DO SOMETHING
to be saved ("born again").


Joh 3:4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?


Nicodemus, like the disciples who abandoned Jesus when they
realized He was teaching salvation by the Sovereign Grace of God
("election"), and like most men today who demand a synergistic
salvation plan... the hard TRUTH about the monergistic Gospel is
just not something they can understand or accept.


Joh 3:9
Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


Now, WHY do I say they cannot understand or accept the Gospel?
Because that is EXACTLY what Jesus taught. Jesus was very clear
some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" or "understand"
the Gospel or "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven".
These people (which are the vast majority of "Christians" being
unsaved "tares" and ALL those outside the church) are not able
to ever accept the (monergistic) Gospel of Sovereign Grace...
most (in the church) don't have "eyes to see" or "ears to hear"
because they are unsaved "tares" NEVER MEANT to be saved.


The Bible is VERY CLEAR that being "born again" is based ONLY
on the Will of God... and has NOTHING to do with the will of men.
We can see this reality (if we have "eyes to see") throughout the
Scriptures. Here are just a FEW of those passages:


Joh 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh,
nor of the will of man, but of [the Will of] God.


Rom 9:1516
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is NOT of him that willeth, NOR of him that runneth,
but of God that sheweth mercy.


John 15:16
Ye have NOT chosen me, but I have chosen you,
and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,
and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask
of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad,
and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were
ordained to eternal life believed.


2Th 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you,
brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the BEGINNING chosen you to salvation through sanctification of
the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Eph 1:4
According as he hath CHOSEN US in him
before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy
and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us
unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself,
according to the good pleasure of his will,


So, the ISSUE is not whether "disciples" can abandon Jesus
because we already KNOW the majority of the "church" are
unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined to eternal torment.
Instead, the ISSUE of John 6 is that His "disciples" abandoned
Him for a VERY SPECIFIC REASON.


If you cannot discern the VERY SPECIFIC REASON causing
His disciples to abandon Him then you cannot understand the
primary TEACHING of John 6. It is really as simple as that.
The teaching of John 6 is NOT that unsaved people depart,
it is that salvation is by the Sovereign ELECTION of God.


Jim

Butterball1 said:

The point from John 6:66-67 is that disciples CAN turn from Christ and walk no more with Him INCLUDING all of His Apostles.

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That is what YOU say.... this is what CHRIST says:


Joh 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me,
that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.


Joh 10:27-28
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them,
and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life;
and they shall never perish, neither shall any man
pluck them out of my hand.


So Jesus says NONE will be lost... you say SOME shall be lost.
I wonder who is correct? Jesus or you?


Jim

BNR32FAN said:

I absolutely agree with you friend. John 15:1-10 is very clear on this subject.

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I am curious.
I ASSUME we can agree there are NO CONTRADICTIONS in the Bible.


So you have Jesus saying [John 6] that NO MAN can come to Him
unless the Father first "draws them" and ALL MEN the Father draws
"shall come" to Him and He would lose NONE of them.


And then you have your "interpretation" that John 15 shows
SOME saved men are LOST.


Since there is a contradiction between what JESUS SAID in John 6
and YOUR "interpretation" of John 15... how do you deal with that?

(a) do you think your "interpretation" NEGATES Christ's clear words?
(b) do you think there are CONTRADICTIONS in Scripture?
(c) do you just IGNORE verses contradicting your "interpretation"?


Help me out here...
How do you deal with your "interpretation" that contradicts
the very clear Words of Christ?


Jim

5thK

But NOBODY was "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit until Pentecost.

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How can one be born of God and not indwelt ? Thats foolishness.

5thKingdom said:

Your fight is with JESUS (not me)
It was JESUS that said the Holy Spirit would be sent
AFTER He had ascended. I sent you a bunch of SCRIPTURES
which teach you that Biblical Truth... and you IGNORED them all.


Now, WHY in the world would someone want to IGNORE
the Words of Christ? Maybe because those Words contradict
a presupposition, so ignoring them does not destroy their "gospel".


Jim


BTW: John 1:12-13 must HARMONIZE with the Words of Christ
that I GAVE YOU in post #133. If you cannot HARMONIZE your
"theory" with the WORDS of CHRIST (in six different passages)
then you are either (a) proven wrong or (b) claiming the Bible
has contradictions and errors... and, therefore, you can just
SELECT the passages you like and IGNORE all the passages
that contradict your "theories". Good luck with that "theology".

.

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John 1:12-13 refutes your understanding, doesnt matter how many scriptures you quote !

Brightfame52 said:

How can one be born of God and not indwelt ? Thats foolishness.

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You cannot be "born of God" and not "indwelt"...
Who said you could?

Jim

Brightfame52 said:

John 1:12-13 refutes your understanding, doesnt matter how many scriptures you quote !

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No, as I said, I sent you a BUNCH of Scriptures.
If you want to pretend your "interpretation" of John 1:12-13
refutes ALL THE SCRIPTURE that I sent you then you will need
to ADDRESS those Scriptures... instead of just IGNORING THEM.


When you IGNORE Scriptures that contradict your "interpretations"
you have not PROVEN anything at all, except that you do not mind
IGNORING Scriptures.


Jim

Brightfame52 said:

How can one be born of God and not indwelt ? Thats foolishness.

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John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


In this verse the "water" represents the Gospel (living water)
and the Spirit represents the Holy Spirit.


WHEN (in time) was the Holy Spirit GIVEN to the Apostles?
On Pentecost.


End of story.


Jim

5thKingdom said:

No, as I said, I sent you a BUNCH of Scriptures.
If you want to pretend your "interpretation" of John 1:12-13
refutes ALL THE SCRIPTURE that I sent you then you will need
to ADDRESS those Scriptures... instead of just IGNORING THEM.


When you IGNORE Scriptures that contradict your "interpretations"
you have not PROVEN anything at all, except that you do not mind
IGNORING Scriptures.


Jim

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I don't need to address those scriptures, for what? You don't understand Jn 1:12-13, which refutes you.

5thKingdom said:

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


In this verse the "water" represents the Gospel (living water)
and the Spirit represents the Holy Spirit.


WHEN (in time) was the Holy Spirit GIVEN to the Apostles?
On Pentecost.


End of story.


Jim

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I don't know when they were born of God, but that they were born of God in order to believe in His name. Jn 1:12-13 ! Faith to believe is a fruit of the Spirit Gal:22. No man can believe in Christ Jesus while in the flesh.

Brightfame52 said:

I don't need to address those scriptures, for what? You don't understand Jn 1:12-13, which refutes you.

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As I have already explained to you (several times I believe)
the ONLY MEASURE of Biblical Truth is harmony of ALL RELATED
verses. If you have ONE VERSE that contradicts your "theory"
about the MEANING of John 1:12-13... that PROVES your theory
is not correct (because it contradicts RELATED passages). At best
your "theory" could only be a PARTIAL-TRUTH (a lie).


I don't know WHY this would be "news" to you because this
is the FIRST LESSON in Bible study... there are NO CONTRADICTIONS
in the Bible so your "theory" cannot contradict any RELATED passage
or it is already proven to be un-Biblical and incorrect.


Now.... I sent you MANY Scriptures (about 6 if I remember right)
that CONTRADICT your "theory" about John 1:12-13 so that means
EITHER the Bible contains contradictions or your "theory" is wrong.


And the fact that YOU do not even want to TRY to compare
Scripture with Scripture... tells the whole story right there.
The Bible COMMANDS we compare Scripture with Scripture
because any good heresy can be supported by a single verse...
all good lies must contain a little truth.


Listen, I could not care less whether you TRY to harmonize
your theory on John 1 with all the RELATED passages I sent
you. But when you INTENTIONALLY IGNORE Scriptures that
contradict your "theory" you demonstrate you are not even
interested in finding Biblical Truth. It's really as simple as that.


Jim

Brightfame52 said:

I don't know when they were born of God, but that they were born of God in order to believe in His name. Jn 1:12-13 ! Faith to believe is a fruit of the Spirit Gal:22. No man can believe in Christ Jesus while in the flesh.

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We know absolutely that Jesus said He must ascend BEFORE
He would send the Holy Spirit. And we know absolutely that
the Holy Spirit was poured DURING Pentecost. In fact, Jesus
commanded the Apostles to WAIT for this to happen during
Pentecost.


So you can pretend Jesus was lying and you can pretend
that the Holy Spirit was poured out BEFORE Pentecost but
you are only pretending to yourself. Even "babes in Christ",
even first year Bible students, understand Pentecost.


I suggest you do yourself a favor and spend some time
researching what the Saints have said about this issue
for the last 2000+/- years. Do you really believe that
YOU have found some "truth" no previous Saint knew?
If you do some research you will find EVERYBODY has
rejected your "theory" since the days of the Apostles.


I do not say this with any malice whatsoever. This is just
a VERY basic and essential element of the Christian Gospel
and it is astounding to find it not understood by "teachers".


Jim

Brightfame52 said:

I don't know when they were born of God, but that they were born of God in order to believe in His name. Jn 1:12-13 ! Faith to believe is a fruit of the Spirit Gal:22. No man can believe in Christ Jesus while in the flesh.

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BTW... SATAN "believed" Jesus was the Son of God and
DEMONS "believed" Jesus was the Son of God and even
complained He was torturing them "before the time"...
I already SENT YOU the Scriptures revealing this Truth.
When you decide to IGNORE Scriptures that contradict
your theory - you will end-up with false doctrines.


Jim