Homosexuality the early churches view should be ours

atpollard

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But this faddish push to accept LGBTQx seem to have popped up only in the last 2 decade in the guise of Christian love. But is it really love if we are not showing them the truth, that they are living in sin?

This is clearly your position. Faddish push?

I agree with marc b that there is a "faddish push" at acceptance underway. The concept that an ordained Lesbian Pastor could officiate a same sex marriage before a congregation of Christians that believe that Homosexuality is no longer a sin (like eating pork or wearing blended fabrics) is anathema to every mainline denomination prior to the 21st Century. Redefining God into a more worldly "golden calf" is not 'love'; it is apostasy.
 
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hedrick

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It’s certainly against tradition, but in my church (PCUSA) it started in the 1970s, though as a minority. Indeed the denomination-wide commission set up to study the issue recommended allowing ordination of gays in 1978, though the GA didn’t accept the recommendation. There were at the time openly gay pastors.
 
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PloverWing

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Homosexuality as it is celebrated by the liberal left today I would argue didn't exist in the early Church.

I agree with this. As far as I know, the phenomenon of two same-sex people living together in a committed, monogamous relationship, running a household together, raising children together, and having their family relationship acknowledged and supported by their community, is a new phenomenon.

Our challenge in the 21st century is to apply the best insights of Scripture and Christian Tradition to this new phenomenon, taking into account our emerging insights into human sexuality and psychology. It is not a simple task, and (as is evidenced on CF) Christians disagree about how best to undertake this task.
 
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atpollard

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It’s certainly against tradition, but in my church (PCUSA) it started in the 1970s, though as a minority. Indeed the denomination-wide commission set up to study the issue recommended allowing ordination of gays in 1978, though the GA didn’t accept the recommendation. There were at the time openly gay pastors.
I thought about mentioning the PCUSA in the 1980's, but I was not sure about the details and "thought" that the ordained were to be "non-practicing" Homosexuals. Sort of along the line of a man cannot help being an "alcoholic", but he can choose not to drink.

I will yield to someone more familiar with the details of the PCUSA.
(Personally, I cannot see how it does not require some Biblical gymnastics to arrive at "homosexual Christians" ... or any of the other 'abominations' listed in scripture.)
 
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parousia70

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Please move this if it is inappropriate for this forum.

I would like to contest for the faith.

The basic premise of the World, or the secular society, is the following premise:

Homosexuality is a biological issue, as such a homosexual has no control over their preference, they are born homosexual, as such it is wrong to class it as a sin, or something wrong.

I see nothing there to disagree with.
In none of you scriptural examples can we find any admonition against being Gay. We only find admonition against participating in Homosexual Sex. Everyone knows a person can Be gay, and be celibate. The state of being gay is not synonymous with participating in Homosexual sex.

Now, Since you can't confirm what consenting adults decide to do with one another behind closed doors, how is it you can determine whether or not a Gay person is violating any of those scriptural admonitions?

Are you wanting access to observe everyone's private sexual behavior to make sure it is not in violation?
Are you the appointed arbiter of this?

Should I put a camera in my bedroom, give you access to the video stream, so you may be satisfied I'm not violating any scriptural sexual tenets?

Will you send me videos of your bedroom activity so I may inspect your private behavior, and deliver the appropriate corrective preaching to you, should I determine that you are participating in any sexual activity I believe to be in violation of scripture? Since I'm likewise bound to "contest for the faith", I would appreciate it if you would send me video evidence of your sexual activity, so I may rightfully determine whether or not you are in violation.

How far does your perceived mandate to correct the potential for sinning of others go?

Can you prove to us here that you personally do not violate any of the scriptures you posted?
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Love has no limits but biblically marriage is limited in the Bible. Probably a deeper look at the spiritual aspect of what that means to God ~ love ~ two becoming one ~ there may be no correlation to the fleshly aspect, but leaves both moral and spiritual application that brings it back to the flesh, ,,, circular thinking.
 
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pescador

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Why do so many people hyperfocus on homosexuality and neglect the other sins that are mentioned along with it but are much more prevalent today?

Romans 1:18-32, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen

For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done. They are filled with every kind of unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice. They are rife with envy, murder, strife, deceit, hostility. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, contrivers of all sorts of evil, disobedient to parents, senseless, covenant-breakers, heartless, ruthless. Although they fully know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but also approve of those who practice them.

I have underlined the sins mentioned in addition to same-gender sex...

1) they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened

2) they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles

3) They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator

4) They are filled with a) every kind of unrighteousness, b) wickedness, c) covetousness, d) malice. They are rife with e) envy, f) murder, g) strife, h) deceit, i) hostility.

5) They are a) gossips, b) slanderers, c) haters of God, d) insolent, e) arrogant, c) boastful, d) contrivers of all sorts of evil, e) disobedient to parents, f) senseless, g) covenant-breakers, h) heartless, i) ruthless.

6) Although they fully know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but also approve of those who practice them.

By my count, there are thirty sins listed by Paul in addition to sexual sins, so why do people focus on one sin out of thirty? Could it be that they are obsessed with sex? Why are the other 30(!) sins not mentioned?
 
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hedrick

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I thought about mentioning the PCUSA in the 1980's, but I was not sure about the details and "thought" that the ordained were to be "non-practicing" Homosexuals. Sort of along the line of a man cannot help being an "alcoholic", but he can choose not to drink.

I will yield to someone more familiar with the details of the PCUSA.
(Personally, I cannot see how it does not require some Biblical gymnastics to arrive at "homosexual Christians" ... or any of the other 'abominations' listed in scripture.)
Here’s the original report. https://www.pcusa.org/site_media/media/uploads/_resolutions/church-and-homosexuality.pdf

PCUSA studies have never recommended mandated celibacy, though that was the de facto position given their rejection. Mandatory celibacy violates the Reformation tradition, as well as 1 Cor 7. Debates about homosexuality always assumed sexual relations.

the other major study was in 1989. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) - Resources - Presbyterians and Human Sexuality 1991 It was also rejected by the GA. To my knowledge there was no major study before the final decision to allow ordination of gays. There were position papers, but no full review of relevant biblical treatments and impact on people’s lives. The 1989 study would thus be the most recent. But even the current GA would not accept all of its recommendations.
 
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hedrick

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Incidentally, the 1978 report found that it was permissible to ordain gays under the Book of Order..The GA made a definitive interpretation prohibiting it, but not dismissing current homosexual clergy. Thus during the whole period of the controversy there were validly ordained gay pastors. Pastors were also never prohibited from participating in gay marriage services not taking place within the Presbyterian Church. Furthermore, there were very strict rules limiting enforcement of the prohibition on ordaining gays. To my knowledge it was only actually enforced in a couple of intentional test cases.
 
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Neostarwcc

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I'll be honest. Homosexuals and transsexuals and transgendered people ...etc. Creep me out. I'm disgusted by them. However, they should be treated like any other person. With respect and dignity and love. It's just in today's sinful world that's extremely hard to do.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Or just sex outside of marriage. That wouldn’t be much of a factor now, but by bringing in the whole context of the bible marriage was introduced as a bringing of the bride into the mother’s (Sarah’s) home/tent. That was marriage in the seed of the word.

The closest any mention of a same sex relationship in the bible is the relationship between David and Jonathan, in ‘knitting their souls’ so I think there may be some avenues that could be explored there?
 
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parousia70

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I'll be honest. Homosexuals and transsexuals and transgendered people ...etc. Creep me out. I'm disgusted by them.

Care to guess how many people you creep out and are disgusted by you?

Do you think its' like ..5 people?
maybe 10?
50?

What creeps me out is the obsession with providing opinions and admonitions about what consenting adults, who are not you, do with one another, or themselves, in the bedroom.

That, in and of itself, strikes me as disordered behavior in need of loving council and correction.

But, if normalizing that obsession is the direction we're headed, please go ahead and set up a video stream in your bedroom, PM me the log in information, and I'll begin observing your private bedroom behavior so I can determine if you are in violation of any scriptural sexual standards and if so, I'll make sure to point out publicly how disgusted I am with your violations, and then apply any corrective action I deem necessary for the benefit of your soul.

Don't worry, I'll do so Lovingly, of course.
 
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Cis.jd

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It is an opinion of man.
This is where you are facing an error. It's not just an opinion, but there is various studies that support it to be genetic. I'm 50/50 on it. I believe some are environmental caused but I do think it's possible that there are others who where born with this. (then you have woke snowflakes who just play gay so they can be considered a minority and just complain/cry about being a victim of some sort).

The Bible, while Holy, is written by man under the INSPIRATION of the Holy Spirit... the whole purpose of the Bible was to reveal God to man, and all books and and prophets are all pointing to Jesus. So it should be understood that there are certain things the writers wrote under their own knowledge of the time.
It's bad theology and self-interpretation to mistake the Bible to be from writers that where revealed EVERYTHING about the universe from God.
 
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atpollard

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Why do so many people hyperfocus on homosexuality and neglect the other sins that are mentioned along with it but are much more prevalent today?
When was the last "Alcoholic Pride" parade and movement for churches to ordain "Violent Drunks" as Pastors "because that is just how God made them"? Homosexuality gets special attention because it claims to not be a sin.
 
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hedrick

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When was the last "Alcoholic Pride" parade and movement for churches to ordain "Violent Drunks" as Pastors "because that is just how God made them"? Homosexuality gets special attention because it claims to not be a sin.
Yup. As you may know, Jesus seldom uses the term sin, except in the context of forgiveness. I suspect that's because in his situation the term had been taken over by the Pharisees, and meant violation of purity as defined by their interpretations. Paul's equivalent of Jesus' reticence about sin is "“All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are beneficial," though his background as a Pharisee sometimes shows through in other places.

So my question is whether something is beneficial. Can same-sex relationships reflect God's intention for sex, for people where opposite-sex relationships don't. I think so. That doesn't mean that all same-sex relationships do. There are enough problems with heterosexual relationships that it's hard to know which is on average worse these days. But surely there are dangers specific to same-sex relationships. But I see no reason that faithful same-sex relationships can't reflect Christian ideals.

It's hard to see a good side to alcohol abuse. But it's probably a bad parallel. There's perfectly acceptable use of alcohol. Alcoholism doesn't correspond to homosexuality, but to abusive same-gender relationships. I'm afraid those do exist.
 
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parousia70

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When was the last "Alcoholic Pride" parade and movement for churches to ordain "Violent Drunks" as Pastors "because that is just how God made them"? Homosexuality gets special attention because it claims to not be a sin.

Well... there is no such thing as an alcoholic that never drank alcohol.

Conversely, one does not have to engage in homosexual activity in order to BE Gay.

Homosexual ACTS are sinful. BEING Gay is not.
 
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hedrick

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Well... there is no such thing as an alcoholic that never drank alcohol.
Certainly you couldn't diagnose someone as alcoholic without abuse at some point. But the term alcoholic is often used of someone subject to the addiction even if they are abstinent.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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Well... there is no such thing as an alcoholic that never drank alcohol.

Conversely, one does not have to engage in homosexual activity in order to BE Gay.

Homosexual ACTS are sinful. BEING Gay is not.
TBH That seems to be where the biblical line is drawn in all the examples of scripture that draws from that source. Starting from a negative cannot ever produce a positive. How does that saying go? starting from a false premise will only result in compromise results, if any.
 
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chevyontheriver

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It’s certainly against tradition, but in my church (PCUSA) it started in the 1970s, though as a minority. Indeed the denomination-wide commission set up to study the issue recommended allowing ordination of gays in 1978, though the GA didn’t accept the recommendation. There were at the time openly gay pastors.
That is an open break from an almost 2000 year old Christian tradition, and the Israelite tradition before it. If the PCUSA wants to go that way, bully for them, but it is a repudiation of the moral teaching of the Christian faith. It is, many would say, a different faith. Seeing how many have left and keep leaving the PCUSA, seems like many departing members would say it has become a different faith.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Ugh. This is the usual conservative conspiracy theory. Astronomy, social science, and history are all part of The World's opposition to Christianity. No thanks. I accept the traditional Christian concept of two books. We know the world through two books: the Bible and nature. All truth is God's truth.

Conspiracy theory? It is the written word of God.

The OT passages are part of a concept of Law based on purity. No mixing of fabrics, no mixing of things in a field, only animals that meet the proper definition of their class. While Jesus accepted the Law in principle, he rejected this concept of it, as did many of the prophets. Indeed this was one of his biggest problems with the Pharisees. They were focused on maintaining purity in this sense.

But only serious deviations from the law had the death penalty, as we see gay relationships do.

Paul, as is obvious from the passage you quote, was speaking of Roman sexuality, which at least in certain upper-class communities, seems actually to have been pretty bad. Sated with normal sex, they went on to the same sex. If you equate that with Christian gays, there's really nothing I can say. (That assumes that Rom 1 even expresses Paul's views. I think the context makes it clear that he's actually quoting the opposing position so he can reject it in Rom 2.)

I think what he was saying is fairly simple. It is sin, it shows a rejection of Jesus' lordship.
 
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