May God "Violate" Your "Freewill"?

Brightfame52 said:

God dont care nothing about mans will. Dan 4:35

and all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

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the earth's inhabitants are nothing COMPARED to God but it does NOT mean God does not care about man or the choices men makes. God loves mankind, John 3:16; is concerned about choices men make, Matthew 23:37 and God has given man His word to innstruct and guide men to make the right decisions, 2 Timothy 3:16; Psalms 25:12

Hammster said:

No. In fact, there heresy is widely rejected in orthodox Christianity.

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All those that obey the gospel of Christ....by their willing to obey it in that sense they create a new heart and spirit within themselves while those who refuse to obey do not having closed their eyes and ears Acts 28:27..

Hammster said:

No, if we could create new hearts, God wouldn’t need to give us mew hearts. Pelagianism is a heresy.

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Ezekiel 18:30-31 men are commanded to both
1) cast away their transgressions
and
2) make a new heart and spirit.

The verse proves man is not totally depraved and that man has a role in his own salvation else the commands are pointless, senseless.

Does Ezekiel 18:31 contradict Ezekiel 36:26? No. So there must be a sense in which BOTH God creates a new heart and spirit in man AND man creates a new heart and spirit in himself.

Can man create a new heart and spirit within himself by himself apart from God - God's word? No! But man can obey God's word and by doing so man in that sense is creating a new heart and spirit within himself as God would have it be. In Acts 2, those that obeyed God's command to repent and be baptized for remission of sins created a new heart and spirit within themselves. They did as Peter said "save yourselves" therefore they went forth walking in newness of life Romans 6:4 i.e, a new heart and spirit. Those that refused to obey God did not have this new heart and spirit within them.

Since God is the One who gave the commands-instructions as to HOW man can have a new heart and spirit, then in that sense God is said to have created a new heart and spirit in those who obey God. Those who obey, God will cut off the body of sin from them cleansing them, Colossians 2:11 thereby creating a new heart and spirit in them.

Therefore no regeneration ever occurs within man apart from God's word or apart from man's obedience to that word whereby BOTH God and man have a role in a new heart and spirit being formed in man.

Hammster said:

That’s what you are saying the verse says. You specifically said so. Now you are just walking it back.

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Please do not use Calvinists tricks on me by putting words in my mouth I NEVER said. Please point to the post where I said men could create a new heart and spirit within himself byhimself separate and apart from God words?

Your positon has been obliterated so please do not make personal attacks in purposely misrepresenting what I said.

Butterball1 said:

Ezekiel 18:30-31 men are commanded to both
1) cast away their transgressions
and
2) make a new heart and spirit.

The verse proves man is not totally depraved and that man has a role in his own salvation else the commands are pointless, senseless.

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Unless the complete lack of anyone ever doing this is indeed the measure of our total depravity...

Aussie Pete said:

Now it is God's will that none should perish but that all should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

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But, of course the QUESTION is the DEFINITION of "none".


(1) Does NONE include ONLY the "wheat" in the church
who were sown by God and destined to eternal life?


(2) Does NONE include the unsaved "tares" in the church
who were sown by Satan and destined to eternal torment?


(3) Does NONE include all the lost souls OUTSIDE the church
who are (like Satan's "tares") are also the "children of Satan"?


(4) Does NONE include those God CREATED as "vessels of wrath"
who are "fitted to destruction"?


(5) Does NONE include those without "eyes to see" and
"ears to hear" who JESUS explained were NEVER MEANT to
"perceive" or "understand" the Gospel... or ever "be converted"
or "have their sins forgiven"?


How in the world could NONE include the "tares" of Satan
or those OUTSIDE the church or those CREATED for "wrath"
or those who were NEVER MEANT to "have their sins forgiven"?


Another good example of why we must FIRST be able to DISCERN
the CONTEXT of a passage before we can even pretend to know
the MEANING of that passage.


Jim

TedT said:

Unless the complete lack of anyone ever doing this is indeed the measure of our total depravity...

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Right?
While God COMMANDS all men to repent, the Bible (and history)
show that un-regenerated men will NEVER "seek God" or do
"any good"... "no, not even one".


And yet people ASSUME that the COMMAND to repent implies
the ABILITY to do so (before regeneration).


And those people DO NOT CARE how many passages you show
teaching some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved... because
those passages immediately destroy their synergistic heresy.


Jim

Butterball1 said: ↑
Yes, the Bible says man can do that.

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The QUESTION is not whether the Bible teaches men can repent...
the QUESTION is the CONTEXT of that passage. Is it talking about
regenerated men (yes) or the "natural man" (no).


If we cannot discern the CONTEXT of a passage then
we have no hope of understanding the MEANING.


We cannot just ASSUME the CONTEXT of all passages includes:

(1) the saved "wheat" in the church sown by God
(2) the unsaved "tares" in the church sown by Satan
(3) the lost souls OUTSIDE the church who deny Christ


Jim

Butterball1 said:

What if God violated a man's free will....

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Again, CONTEXT means everything.


The "free will" of "natural man" (before regeneration) is to SIN.
Because they are spiritually DEAD and slaves in Satan's Kingdom
"natural men" have a "sin nature" and always choose to SIN.
They WANT to SIN... They SIN of their own "free will".


It is not until AFTER a "natural man" (DEAD in sin) is regenerated
by God and "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit of God as he is "translated"
from the DEATH of Satan's Kingdom to the LIFE of God's Kingdom,
that a man has the "free will" to do any good (not sin).


Again, CONTEXT means everything.
The "free will" of fallen man is to SIN.
The "free will" of regenerated man is to NOT SIN.


This is Christian theology 101.


Jim

bling said:

How does the Bible define "work"?

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The (Biblical) definition of "works" is an action.


This could be a mental action (like "deciding" to believe/have faith,
or "inviting" Jesus into your heart)


This could be a physical action (like saying the sinner's prayer,
or making an altar call or receiving water baptism or repenting
of some sins)


Any "gospel" that requires the "work" (action) of men is
(by definition) a "works gospel". And this is the BROAD WAY
that leads many "Christians" into destruction.


The True Gospel (Sovereign Grace) is based on the finished work
of Christ... not any "work" of man. God "chose" or "elected" who
He would save BEFORE TIME (based on His own Good Pleasure
and NOT on anything that man would do during his lifetime) and
then God SAVES His "elect" (every one of them)... IN TIME
This is the narrow way that lead Christians into eternal life,
and FEW "Christians" find it.


Jim

Butterball1 said:

... where is there any modicum sense of justice in that?

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Rom 9:19-24
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault?
For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou
that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him
that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the
potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make
one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power
known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath
fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches
of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore
prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called,
not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


.

jimmyjimmy said:

Certainly, doctrine divides, and I'm glad it does.

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When Jesus PROMISED we could know people by their "fruit",
that "fruit" was not just good behavior (for many non-Christians
exhibit wonderful behavior), that "fruit" also applied to doctrines.


We can tell unsaved "tares" in the church by the "fruit" of their
false and heretical doctrines. In fact the "wheat" in the church
are actually COMMANDED to:


(a) identify the unsaved "tares" by their "fruit" of bad behavior
and false doctrines and

(b) rebuke those people (because some may actually be
"babes in Christ" needing much correction and


(c) EXPEL from the church those who refuse to repent and
to separate ourselves from those preaching heretical doctrines,
as no heretic can enter into the "Kingdom of God"


So, yes, doctrine DOES divide... it demonstrates the "fruit"
of the saved "wheat" in the church (sown by God) and the "fruit"
of the unsaved "tares" in the church (sown by Satan).


Jim

Aussie Pete said:

There are non-negotiable truths that make Christianity what it is.

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Such as whether the Gospel of the Bible is of Sovereign Grace
(monergism) or of the works of man (synergism).


Is the Gospel of the Bible a "free offer" for all men to act (work)
or is it a proclamation of the FINISHED WORK of Jesus Christ?


Since Jesus taught that some men were NEVER MEANT to be saved,
we can know absolutely the Gospel of the Bible is not the (synergistic)
"free offer" for men to decide... but, instead, it's the proclamation of
the FINISHED WORK of the Lord Jesus Christ to Atone for all those
God "chose" or "elected" BEFORE TIME, so all of them would be regenerated (born again) IN TIME.


Jim

Butterball1 said:

the earth's inhabitants are nothing COMPARED to God but it does NOT mean God does not care about man or the choices men makes. God loves mankind, John 3:16; is concerned about choices men make, Matthew 23:37 and God has given man His word to innstruct and guide men to make the right decisions, 2 Timothy 3:16; Psalms 25:12

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This isnt about a fairytale ! Gods will is supreme over mans will !

5thKingdom said:

The (Biblical) definition of "works" is an action.


This could be a mental action (like "deciding" to believe/have faith,
or "inviting" Jesus into your heart)


This could be a physical action (like saying the sinner's prayer,
or making an altar call or receiving water baptism or repenting
of some sins)


Any "gospel" that requires the "work" (action) of men is
(by definition) a "works gospel". And this is the BROAD WAY
that leads many "Christians" into destruction.


The True Gospel (Sovereign Grace) is based on the finished work
of Christ... not any "work" of man. God "chose" or "elected" who
He would save BEFORE TIME (based on His own Good Pleasure
and NOT on anything that man would do during his lifetime) and
then God SAVES His "elect" (every one of them)... IN TIME
This is the narrow way that lead Christians into eternal life,
and FEW "Christians" find it.


Jim

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I asked for the “Biblical” definition of “work” and you do not give me one “Biblical” verse to support your definition.

Is worship to be “work” for the worshipper?

Does the worshipper earn some reward or deserve some good thing, by worshipping?

2 Thessalonians 3:10 “For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.” So, is Paul defining “work” as begging for food?

Exodus 12:16 On the first day hold a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do no work at all on these days, except to prepare food for everyone to eat; that is all you may do.

If you “can not work” on the Sabbath, by your definition of work which you say is the Biblical definition “The (Biblical) definition of "works" is an action.” Then the person cannot get out of bed.

Does a righteous sincere beggar, work for the charitable gifts He receives?

Is accepting an undeserved free charitable gift “work”?

Brightfame52 said:

This isnt about a fairytale ! Gods will is supreme over mans will !

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I never said God's will is not supreme, but have said that God does not violate man's will. Man's free will does not undermine God's sovereignty at all.

Butterball1 said:

I never said God's will is not supreme, but have said that God does not violate man's will. Man's free will does not undermine God's sovereignty at all.

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Mans will isnt free from Gods Supreme Sovereign Will !