The politicization of Christianity

rjs330

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The politicization of Christianity, especially it's intense support for Donald Trump, has been a barrier to evangelization. I believe we need to practice and live the Gospel without all of the overt politicizing.

According to Pew Research In 2019 the percentage of American's who identified as Christian was 65 percent a decline of 12 percent in a decade. Among those identifying as Christian were I'm certain many nominal Christians. Moral attitudes are fickle. They vary between societies and over time within a society. We must remain faithful to God's moral values even if they no longer remain popular in the broader culture we are a part of. I believe we are moving into a time in which adhering to Christian values will involve persecution, particularly if we are not willing to compromise.

Of course Christian support for socialist or liberal politics has nothing to do with anything. Only conservative Christians are a problem. Is that right?

Are we trying to say all Christians should be less involved in politics or just the conservative ones.
 
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tulc

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Of course Christian support for socialist or liberal politics has nothing to do with anything. Only conservative Christians are a problem. Is that right?
Well...they apparently have been this year.



Are we trying to say all Christians should be less involved in politics or just the conservative ones.
Which ones were involved in attacking the Capitol to try and over turn the election? I'd say those ones should definitely pray about finding a better way to express their interest in politics.
tulc(just a suggestion)
 
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rjs330

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Well...they apparently have been this year.




Which ones were involved in attacking the Capitol to try and over turn the election? I'd say those ones should definitely pray about finding a better way to express their interest in politics.
tulc(just a suggestion)

Just how many of those that attacked the capitol were conservative Christians?

I think I have heard every political pundant condemn the attack on the capitol. And I don't know of anyone on this forum that defended it. I think everyone on this forum that I know of condemned it. That would include conservatives.

Unlike the liberals who refused to condemn the rioters this summer and actually defended them.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The left doesn't claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. The left does not claim to be Christian.

Jesus didn't condemn those who were admittedly sinners, He condemned those who claimed to be operating in the name of God but actually made others' lives hell.
Regarding the bold you might be broadly right. Though I am not convinced of that on a smaller scale, particularly in African American Churches and the black Christian population of the USA in general. Yet the left is not averse to using religious language when it thinks it will benefit them. Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, even Obama pay lip service to Christianity and I would be remiss not to mention these very forums. Wherein liberal Christians have argued that it is unchristian to vote for Trump or support him in anway way.

Your comparison between conservative Christians and the Pharisees is interesting and all. But why should I take it seriously?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I could argue that the African-American vote is more complex than people give it credit, but when all that complexity under the surface consistently results in a single outcome...what difference did it make?

I had in mind the African American community as a voting block that seems to vote democrat no matter what the democrats do. If Evangelicals are to be considered illegitimate in seeking their political priorities through the Republicans, what do you make of the black vote?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Not to the degree that it exists on the right.

Blacks, Muslims, Liberal Jews, Hispanics, Women, business executives, university professors/students and many other blocks of people will typically vote Democrat no matter what. If you’re arguing that Democrats don’t have groups of people whom they rely on to vote for them consistently, just like the Republicans do, then you’ve already lost me.

Blind loyalty in politics exists on both sides and you’re fooling yourself if you think only the Democrats think rationally about voting.

IME, that just isn't true. And unlike evangelical Republican voters, most Dem voters aren't sacrificing a bunch of other self-claimed values for the sake of voting for the Democrats.


I guess it depends on the values and the politician trying to enforce them. You listed a bunch of points you and liberals disagree with and accuse Trump of, but conservatives obviously see the situation differently. Republican conservatives want illegal immigration curbed and don’t accept the idea of labelling everyone who seeks entrance into the USA as refugee.

If you want to say Trump is uniquely guilty of lying in the realm of Politics or that he’s the only racist candidate (Biden has said more explicitly racist things than Trump) then I think you overestimate your own side and their inherent goodness. It might make more sense for you to step back and judge most politicians as bad, regardless of the side.

The issue we're discussing is how the politicization of Christianity has undermined evangelism. As fellow Christians, it is entirely appropriate for us to look at our own community and judge and correct its behavior - doing so is a core part of the faith. We would be remiss in our responsibilities as Christians if we didn't engage in that sort of self-reflection and self-correction.


It's fine if Christians look at the electoral options and decide that the Republican is better. But that isn't what's happened. What's happened is that large blocs of American evangelicals have supplanted religious doctrine with Republican political positions and subsumed Republican political figures into quasi-leadership religious roles.


Since I would argue that both sides claim a Chrristian mandate to appeal to their respective Christian bases the idea that Trump has uniquely damaged Christianity seems wrongheaded to me. At least from my conservative perspective. As a liberal, anything I say damages Christianity’s reputation, but that’s just how it goes. Whereas I see Democratic displays of “Amen and awoman,” and shake my head.

But since you think it’s innapropiate for Evenalgical Christians to vote Republican. What would the Democrats give them if they got their vote? What incentives are Democrats offering conservative Evangelicals or Conservative Christians more broadly that would allow them to consider voting for a Democrat?


If you can’t answer then it seems all you can offer is a purely liberal critique of conservative Evangelicalsm which won’t convince anyone.
 
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RDKirk

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Regarding the bold you might be broadly right. Though I am not convinced of that on a smaller scale, particularly in African American Churches and the black Christian population of the USA in general.

Being one of those myself, no, we don't claim politics to be a holy mission the way right-wing evangelicals do. You don't hear us calling any political leader "God's man" or anything like that.

Yet the left is not averse to using religious language when it thinks it will benefit them. Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, even Obama pay lip service to Christianity and I would be remiss not to mention these very forums.

They confess to being Christians, yes, which is not the same thing as saying about any particular action, "God told me to do it" or "God is behind me in this" or even "God is with me in this." Rather, they make it clear that their political leadership is separate from their Christian beliefs. Now, there are some issues to be had with that viewpoint from the Christian side, but clearly they're not letting their religious beliefs govern their politics...which is, of course, the right's gripe with them in the first place.

Wherein liberal Christians have argued that it is unchristian to vote for Trump or support him in anway way.

Some conservative Christians have, too.

Your comparison between conservative Christians and the Pharisees is interesting and all. But why should I take it seriously?

Because...it's scripture.
 
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RDKirk

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I had in mind the African American community as a voting block that seems to vote democrat no matter what the democrats do. If Evangelicals are to be considered illegitimate in seeking their political priorities through the Republicans, what do you make of the black vote?

Problematic in either case. But Christians are citizens of heaven who are ambassadors in the nations of the world, and should be a step detached from worldly politics anyway.
 
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RDKirk

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Blacks, Muslims, Liberal Jews, Hispanics, Women, business executives, university professors/students and many other blocks of people will typically vote Democrat no matter what. If you’re arguing that Democrats don’t have groups of people whom they rely on to vote for them consistently, just like the Republicans do, then you’ve already lost me.

Actually, the majority of white women voted for Trump both times. Hispanics are definitely split in their vote, and anyone but Trump would get even more of their vote. Business executives are split, and anyone but Trump would get more of their vote. Blacks generally don't split much, but black men have been around 75/25 for Trump...anyone but Trump would get a lot more of the black male vote.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Being one of those myself, no, we don't claim politics to be a holy mission the way right-wing evangelicals do. You don't hear us calling any political leader "God's man" or anything like that.

Are you going to deny African American Churches help the Democrats by in large?

T
hey confess to being Christians, yes, which is not the same thing as saying about any particular action, "God told me to do it" or "God is behind me in this" or even "God is with me in this." Rather, they make it clear that their political leadership is separate from their Christian beliefs. Now, there are some issues to be had with that viewpoint from the Christian side, but clearly they're not letting their religious beliefs govern their politics...which is, of course, the right's gripe with them in the first place.

I dissagree with your take on the Christian Democrats. They seem deeply inspired by their faith. Are you suggesting their faith is not an integral part of their being not reflected in the legislation they want to pass? Or is it merely a show? How does one acutely seperate their faith from their politics?

Is it like how you might support abortion politically but think it an abominable sin personally? I don't know how I could live with that cognitive dissonance.


Some conservative Christians have, too.
Never said they didn't. I'm just pointing out that it exists on both sides and both will use Christianity if they feel it will get them something.

Because...it's scripture.

It's scripture that conservative Republicans are the Pharisees? Must have missed that. What does that make the Democrats? Moloch Worshippers?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Actually, the majority of white women voted for Trump both times. Hispanics are definitely split in their vote, and anyone but Trump would get even more of their vote. Business executives are split, and anyone but Trump would get more of their vote. Blacks generally don't split much, but black men have been around 75/25 for Trump...anyone but Trump would get a lot more of the black male vote.

My point was that there are specific blocks which can reliably be counted on by both sides. To deny this, well, is to deny reality. It's to give your side too much credit and pretend that they don't cater to specific groups.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Problematic in either case. But Christians are citizens of heaven who are ambassadors in the nations of the world, and should be a step detached from worldly politics anyway.
Except when it comes to voting Democrat right?

Seriously however. I disagree with the premise that Christians should be utterly detached from worldly politics. Mainly because if that were the case I can't see how Christianity as it stands today would exist and have so much influence in the world.

If you want to be detached from the world, the monastary exists. You can take your vow and live the religious life. I commend anyone who does so, but if you want a more normal life. A less rigorous life, maybe want a woman and some kids. Why should you abstain from the political process as a Christian? Do Christians have nothing to add to the secular sphere?
 
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Andrewn

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The world (and anything of it) are enemies of God, and the politics of the left demonstrate absolute enmity with God. That said, much of the political right isn't better.

I had in mind the African American community as a voting block that seems to vote democrat no matter what the democrats do.

Blacks, Muslims, Liberal Jews, Hispanics, Women, business executives, university professors/students and many other blocks of people will typically vote Democrat no matter what.
Does it bother you that people with higher education voted for Biden? This is not blind loyalty and there were good reasons for voting for Trump in 2016 (or at least not voting for Hillary). There are very good Christian reasons for voting for Democrats and some are mentioned in post #14. It's surprising that Fundamentalist Christians do not seem to care for social well-being of others who share the image of God, but everyone should vote their conscience. We can disagree on who is more fit to be president but everyone is entitled to their opinion, this is democracy. The problem is false accusations and witness after the election of Biden: lies and conspiracy theories, which inevitably lead to violence. This is anti-democracy.

But since you think it’s innapropiate for Evenalgical Christians to vote Republican. What would the Democrats give them if they got their vote? What incentives are Democrats offering conservative Evangelicals or Conservative Christians more broadly that would allow them to consider voting for a Democrat?
You've said the truth. This is really the bottom-line for why Fundamentalist Christians have consistently voted for Republicans over the years: money and power.
 
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RDKirk

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Are you going to deny African American Churches help the Democrats by in large?

You're moving the goalpost. You were claiming the vote is monolithic, not "by and large."

I dissagree with your take on the Christian Democrats. They seem deeply inspired by their faith. Are you suggesting their faith is not an integral part of their being not reflected in the legislation they want to pass? Or is it merely a show? How does one acutely seperate their faith from their politics?

You're moving the goalpost again.

Is it like how you might support abortion politically but think it an abominable sin personally? I don't know how I could live with that cognitive dissonance.

You ought to be experiencing cognitive dissonance between that statement and your last statement.

It's scripture that conservative Republicans are the Pharisees? Must have missed that. What does that make the Democrats? Moloch Worshippers?

The DNC does not make God part of their political platform. The GOP explicitly does. To the degree the GOP fails to act in a Godly manner or fails to select a Godly candidate--while claiming to be the party of God--Republicans are being the hypocrites that the Pharisees were.
 
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RDKirk

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Except when it comes to voting Democrat right?

Seriously however. I disagree with the premise that Christians should be utterly detached from worldly politics. Mainly because if that were the case I can't see how Christianity as it stands today would exist and have so much influence in the world.

Strawman argument. I did not say "utterly detached." I said "a step detached."

Daniel operated within the government of Nebuchadnezzar, but he was detached enough that he never accepted the government of Babylon as his own government, and he was detached enough that when the government changed to Darius, he easily changed with it...Daniel did not cling to the outgoing regime, and that was obvious even to Darius.
 
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It's surprising that Fundamentalist Christians do not seem to care for social well-being of others who share the image of God,

This is an incorrect supposition... people do care, but also see limits on what we can do as a nation.

First, if we opened our borders to just anyone and everyone who wanted to live here, our system would break down. Therefore, we have a legal form of immigration and determine how many immigrants we are able to accept every year.

Second. We don't believe everyone in the world wants to come for pure reasons. Some literally want to come to attack us - so determining the who of who gets to come is important, through a vetting process that attempts to weed out people who are our enemies, and enemies to our western way of life.

Just throwing our borders open is not a proper way, as a welfare state, to run our state.

You can disagree with the amount of people we accept annually, you can disagree with portions of the vetting process but to disagree with all of it across the board is to seek the destruction of our nation. And once destroyed, we can't even help ourselves let alone others.

It's important to help all that is possible to help, in perpetuity... not for a day and be done forever.

We can go on down the line here, but this extends to COVID response as well. Do you know that come late this year, with continued lockdowns, that the WORLD faces food shortages and famines the likes of which haven't been seen in modernity? There have been warnings for months now about this, yet people are still screaming for more lockdowns, without concern for what that means for the world's future.

Conservatives DO care, and pretending that our solutions don't show concern for others is to prove your not listening to the concerns of conservatives. It's not about "money and power"...
 
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iluvatar5150

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This is an incorrect supposition... people do care, but also see limits on what we can do as a nation.

First, if we opened our borders to just anyone and everyone who wanted to live here, our system would break down. Therefore, we have a legal form of immigration and determine how many immigrants we are able to accept every year.

Second. We don't believe everyone in the world wants to come for pure reasons. Some literally want to come to attack us - so determining the who of who gets to come is important, through a vetting process that attempts to weed out people who are our enemies, and enemies to our western way of life.

Just throwing our borders open is not a proper way, as a welfare state, to run our state.

You can disagree with the amount of people we accept annually, you can disagree with portions of the vetting process but to disagree with all of it across the board is to seek the destruction of our nation. And once destroyed, we can't even help ourselves let alone others.

It's important to help all that is possible to help, in perpetuity... not for a day and be done forever.

We can go on down the line here, but this extends to COVID response as well. Do you know that come late this year, with continued lockdowns, that the WORLD faces food shortages and famines the likes of which haven't been seen in modernity? There have been warnings for months now about this, yet people are still screaming for more lockdowns, without concern for what that means for the world's future.

Conservatives DO care, and pretending that our solutions don't show concern for others is to prove your not listening to the concerns of conservatives. It's not about "money and power"...

We weren’t just flinging our doors open to anybody. The Trump administration cut the refugee resettlement cap every year it was in office, and through cap reductions and administrative foot-dragging, reduced the number of refugees resettled each year by about 87%.

Fact Sheet: U.S. Refugee Resettlement - National Immigration Forum

That’s not a pro-life policy. That’s not a Christian policy. It’s a white nationalist policy. That you heard nary a peep about it from evangelical leaders points to what their true motivations are.
 
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rjs330

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Regarding the bold you might be broadly right. Though I am not convinced of that on a smaller scale, particularly in African American Churches and the black Christian population of the USA in general. Yet the left is not averse to using religious language when it thinks it will benefit them. Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, even Obama pay lip service to Christianity and I would be remiss not to mention these very forums. Wherein liberal Christians have argued that it is unchristian to vote for Trump or support him in anway way.

Your comparison between conservative Christians and the Pharisees is interesting and all. But why should I take it seriously?

What I find interesting is you see very little from conservative Christians involving an accusation that liberal Christians aren't very Christian because of their political beliefs. But you see liberal Christians all the time accusing conservative Christians of not being very Christian because if their political stances. You see it on this thread.

Liberal Christians are JUST as political as conservative Christians. Yet we don't see the decrying of their involvement in politics. It's only conservative Christians that are bad. It's utter nonsense.
 
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Guinan

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What I find interesting is you see very little from conservative Christians involving an accusation that liberal Christians aren't very Christian because of their political beliefs. But you see liberal Christians all the time accusing conservative Christians of not being very Christian because if their political stances. You see it on this thread.

Liberal Christians are JUST as political as conservative Christians. Yet we don't see the decrying of their involvement in politics. It's only conservative Christians that are bad. It's utter nonsense.

I'm a lifelong Republican and the only people who have ever tried to silence me for my political views have been Trump supporters and most of them are conservative Christians. In fact, I've been cyber bullied, disparaged, ridiculed, and harassed by some Trump supporters in the last 5 years. I've been accused of being anti-Christian and anti-American. A couple of them accused me of being a traitor to my country. I've been called disparaging names like 'a minion of Satan,' 'a demonrat,' and 'a child of the devil.' I was told that I'm going to hell because I voted for Biden. I have family members who no longer speak for me because I oppose Trump. I have former friends who won't speak to me either.

I've had other conservatives I've known for years turn against me and viciously attack my character, my faith, and my patriotism for America. For the record, I haven't experienced any malice, hostility, and abusive treatment from liberals. I've had disagreements with liberals over political issues, but none of them have ever treated me with utter disdain the way other conservatives have treated me.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Does it bother you that people with higher education voted for Biden? This is not blind loyalty and there were good reasons for voting for Trump in 2016 (or at least not voting for Hillary). There are very good Christian reasons for voting for Democrats and some are mentioned in post #14. It's surprising that Fundamentalist Christians do not seem to care for social well-being of others who share the image of God, but everyone should vote their conscience. We can disagree on who is more fit to be president but everyone is entitled to their opinion, this is democracy. The problem is false accusations and witness after the election of Biden: lies and conspiracy theories, which inevitably lead to violence. This is anti-democracy.

You've said the truth. This is really the bottom-line for why Fundamentalist Christians have consistently voted for Republicans over the years: money and power.

Why would this bother me? People in higher education believe all sorts of nonsense are more prone to accept socialism/communism and the idea that a biological male is not really a man if he declares it so. If the Idea is that the intelligensia are behind the Democrats and therefore they are more smarter, I disagree. Conservative intellectuals/scholars I find more compelling.
The issue goes beyond Fundamentalism to Christian conservatism in general, which comprises more than just Fundamentalists. Conservatives don't have any reason to vote Democrat, so why should they be shamed for voting Republican? Each side is seeking it's political priority and will vote for the person they believe will accomplish it, irrespective of character.
 
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