In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

rjs330 · Jan 17, 2021

SilverBear said:
so you don't care about the effectiveness or the ethics of conversion therapy or the well being of the person you are just pushing an agenda

No I just want to know your definition of damaging. I don't have an agenda for conversion therapy. See my post on my thoughts on this.

In your thoughts.would telling a believer the passions they have towards the same sex are wrong and sinful be damaging?

Philip_B · Jan 17, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
No it is not, it is firmly based on the word of God. That a gay person must leave behind their lifestyle, i.e. convert.

This of course is fundamental to the argument. Is being (as against doing) Gay, a lifestyle choice, or is it an inherent part of a persons makeup. Most Gay people I have discussed this with (including people in my family) take the view that it was not a choice for them, not a decision, it was simply who they were, and for them it was not until they recognised that in themselves that they gained a sense of peace and authenticity.

The conversion therapy which is the subject of of this thread, is not about helping people repent of their sins, to fight against sin the world and the devil, and to turn to Christ. Rather it is about some sort of attempt to re-tune a persons internal makeup so they no longer accept that they are gay.

rjs330 · Jan 17, 2021

kiwimac said:
My church ordains both men and women; we accept, affirm and ordain LGBTQI people.

Do they require them to be celibate?

FutureAndAHope · Jan 17, 2021

Hi,

I address this to you who are standing up for homosexuality. Homosexuality is a sin, and evil, that must be repented of, see what the word says:

Rom 1:21-32 - Because, having the knowledge of God, they did not give glory to God as God, and did not give praise, but their minds were full of foolish things, and their hearts, being without sense, were made dark. Seeming to be wise, they were in fact foolish, And by them the glory of the eternal God was changed and made into the image of man who is not eternal, and of birds and beasts and things which go on the earth. For this reason God gave them up to the evil desires of their hearts, working shame in their bodies with one another: Because by them the true word of God was changed into that which is false, and they gave worship and honour to the thing which is made, and not to him who made it, to whom be blessing for ever. So be it. For this reason God gave them up to evil passions, and their women were changing the natural use into one which is unnatural: And in the same way the men gave up the natural use of the woman and were burning in their desire for one another, men doing shame with men, and getting in their bodies the right reward of their evil-doing. And because they had not the mind to keep God in their knowledge, God gave them up to an evil mind, to do those things which are not right; Being full of all wrongdoing, evil, desire for the goods of others, hate, envy, putting to death, fighting, deceit, cruel ways, evil talk, and false statements about others; Hated by God, full of pride, without respect, full of loud talk, given to evil inventions, not honouring father or mother, Without knowledge, not true to their undertakings, unkind, having no mercy: Who, though they have knowledge of the law of God, that the fate of those who do these things is death, not only go on doing these things themselves, but give approval to those who do them.

1Co 6:9 Have you not knowledge that evil-doers will have no part in the kingdom of God? Have no false ideas about this: no one who goes after the desires of the flesh, or gives worship to images, or is untrue when married, or is less than a man, or makes a wrong use of men,

Jas 3:14 …., glory not, and lie not against the truth.

If you are in a church that supports “gayness”, get out. Or you are supporting a lie. Who is the father of lies, the devil.

rjs330 · Jan 17, 2021

OzSpen said:
SB,

Were they the claims I made? Of course not!

Let's keep to the OP subject: "In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching"

Is it a criminal offence to preach what the Bible says about murder, promiscuity, adultery, marriage & family, homosexuality, adultery, idolatry, etc?

Oz

Yeah, I don't think it's a disease either. You can't "catch" homosexuality.

Homosexuality, the desire to be with the same sex, is a passion. And the Bible says it's a vile passion.

The concern is that the government would try and tell the church they cannot say that to their members. And it seems that there certainly is that inference in the law and the possibility exists they could do just that.

rjs330 · Jan 17, 2021

Double post

Paidiske · Jan 17, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Does not your church teach that in converting to Christ, a homosexual must also become straight? The two are linked.

In converting to Christ, a person must commit to sexual morality. That would mean not having sex outside marriage.

But committing to celibacy is not the same thing as "becoming straight." Leaving aside the possibility of God's direct intervention (which is a rare experience even for gay people who come to faith in Christ, and I have known many), humans have no way to change their underlying neurology; a straight person can't change and become homosexual, and a homosexual person can't change and become straight, and there is no therapy that can effect that change. All each can do is commit to live morally with the particular neurology and set of temptations that they experience.

FutureAndAHope said:
I don't understand how you can stand up for a law that makes parliament accountable to the following principals, and consecutive laws.

I am standing up for a law that will protect vulnerable young people from unethical and damaging pseudo-therapeutic practices. That's my concern; that we avoid traumatising people who already have heavy enough burdens.

FutureAndAHope said:
(b) to affirm that a person's sexual orientation or gender identity is not broken and in need of fixing; and (c) to affirm that no sexual orientation or gender identity constitutes a disorder, disease, illness, deficiency or shortcoming; and

Do you agree with those definitions? Yes/No. If not why are you standing up for this law. It is against Christ. It is antichrist. It is against truth. The bible tells us homosexuality is a sin of abandonment of God's ways.

I view sexual orientation and gender identity as matters of development; that is, a "switch" was flicked one way or the other, chemically, whilst that person was still in the womb and their brain was beginning to form. That accords with the best understanding of the science that I have been able to glean.

The question then for Christians becomes, how do we live with that developmental - for want of a better word - divergence?

So to the extent that I would never say to anyone who had some developmental difference that they are "broken," or that they have a personal "shortcoming," I would not say that to a homosexual or transgendered person either. I would, however, be open to exploring with them what faithful living looks like in light of their particular situation.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 17, 2021

Paidiske said:
I view sexual orientation and gender identity as matters of development; that is, a "switch" was flicked one way or the other, chemically, whilst that person was still in the womb and their brain was beginning to form. That accords with the best understanding of the science that I have been able to glean.

So basically you are deceived, you don't believe God's definition but mans'. Do you believe the scripture? Or man? Make your choice.

Rom 1:21-32 - Because, having the knowledge of God, they did not give glory to God as God, and did not give praise, but their minds were full of foolish things, and their hearts, being without sense, were made dark. Seeming to be wise, they were in fact foolish, And by them the glory of the eternal God was changed and made into the image of man who is not eternal, and of birds and beasts and things which go on the earth. For this reason God gave them up to the evil desires of their hearts, working shame in their bodies with one another: Because by them the true word of God was changed into that which is false, and they gave worship and honour to the thing which is made, and not to him who made it, to whom be blessing for ever. So be it. For this reason God gave them up to evil passions, and their women were changing the natural use into one which is unnatural: And in the same way the men gave up the natural use of the woman and were burning in their desire for one another, men doing shame with men, and getting in their bodies the right reward of their evil-doing. And because they had not the mind to keep God in their knowledge, God gave them up to an evil mind, to do those things which are not right; Being full of all wrongdoing, evil, desire for the goods of others, hate, envy, putting to death, fighting, deceit, cruel ways, evil talk, and false statements about others; Hated by God, full of pride, without respect, full of loud talk, given to evil inventions, not honouring father or mother, Without knowledge, not true to their undertakings, unkind, having no mercy: Who, though they have knowledge of the law of God, that the fate of those who do these things is death, not only go on doing these things themselves, but give approval to those who do them.

1Co 6:9 Have you not knowledge that evil-doers will have no part in the kingdom of God? Have no false ideas about this: no one who goes after the desires of the flesh, or gives worship to images, or is untrue when married, or is less than a man, or makes a wrong use of men,

Paidiske · Jan 17, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
So basically you are deceived, you don't believe God's definition but mans'. Do you believe the scripture? Or man? Make your choice.

I don't see it as a binary. While exploring the Scriptural texts in depth would be beyond what's allowed in this forum, (where this rule applies: "discussion and debate about the morality of homosexuality or same-sex marriage is not allowed") I see it as important that Christians integrate our Scriptural understanding with the best understanding that other disciplines bring.

Otherwise we are at risk of doing the anthropological equivalent of insisting that the earth is the centre of the universe, after astronomers have proved that the earth goes around the sun...

rjs330 · Jan 17, 2021

Paidiske said:
Again, conversion therapy is not about lifestyle change. It is about orientation change. We need to understand this law in terms of the definitions in the law, and that does not mean "convert" in any general sense, but "conversion therapy" in a very clearly specified narrow sense.

This is a misunderstanding of the law. It is not preventing any conversion in the Christian sense of coming to Christ. It is preventing the attempt to change someone's sexuality or gender identity, which is a very specific - and different - thing to conversion in the Christian sense.

Preaching is not conversion therapy, and preaching is not affected by this law.

You know I think if the law just said, "you can't use conversion therapy", there would be less controversy.

I think it's the other wording that's the problem and has people concerned.

I don't really know if one can change their orientation. There are believers that have testifies they have. So it seems that IS a possibility.

But is conversion therapy good? I don't really know. I don't think that most people would be quite so concerned if the law was more specific.

I don't really trust the government or the people in the government to keep to narrow application unless the law is narrowly defined. There is far too much in this law that could be used against the church to prevent any indication that homosexual passions and acts are wrong for believers.

Paidiske · Jan 17, 2021

rjs330 said:
You know I think if the law just said, "you can't use conversion therapy", there would be less controversy.

I think it's the other wording that's the problem and has people concerned.

But the thing is, whatever opinions are expressed in the explanatory preamble and so forth is not really an issue. We only need to be concerned with what the law actually forbids, and that is, very specifically, conversion therapy.

rjs330 said:
There is far too much in this law that could be used against the church to prevent any indication that homosexual passions and acts are wrong for believers.

That's not how I read it, at all.

rjs330 · Jan 17, 2021

Paidiske said:
I don't see it as a binary. While exploring the Scriptural texts in depth would be beyond what's allowed in this forum, (where this rule applies: "discussion and debate about the morality of homosexuality or same-sex marriage is not allowed") I see it as important that Christians integrate our Scriptural understanding with the best understanding that other disciplines bring.

Otherwise we are at risk of doing the anthropological equivalent of insisting that the earth is the centre of the universe, after astronomers have proved that the earth goes around the sun...

I certainly understand your thoughts on this. There is also evidence that homosexuality is also a result of a person's personal experiences.

But it is a possibility that the brain has something to do with it as well. Regardless of any of that the scripture does teach that homosexuality is a vile passion. And passions do come from our thoughts.

So the difficulty is are we integrating scripture to other disciplines or allowing other disciplines to counter what scripture says. In this case I don't think the Bible really says anything about whether a person is born a homosexual or not. So I suppose it is possible. Scripture is silent on that.

But it IS clear that homosexuality is a desire for the same sex and that desire is a vile passion and a reprobate mind.

And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; - Romans 1:28 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 1:28 - American Standard Version

I think we have to be very careful I'm the church not to fall astray of:

who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them. - Romans 1:32 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 1:32 - American Standard Version

We don't want to consent with them that practice those things. And I don't think you are trying to consent, so don't take me wrong here. I do believe some in the church are.

rjs330 · Jan 17, 2021

Paidiske said:
But the thing is, whatever opinions are expressed in the explanatory preamble and so forth is not really an issue. We only need to be concerned with what the law actually forbids, and that is, very specifically, conversion therapy.

That's not how I read it, at all.

Well I know that's not how you read it. But it is how others read it. And that is the concern. The application of the law is often different than the intent. And you have been shown by quite a few others the concerning portions.

If this law passes then I think we will have the answer as it is used. The thing is none of us really knows how it will be used or interpreted. Cause it doesn't just say, "thou shalt not use conversion therapy". There is all this other ambiguous language that appears to go beyond that. Why is all that other language there?

Why couldn't the law just say, we don't recognize conversion therapy as a legitimate therapy and it cannot be used? No, they had to toss in all that other language that could be used to try and silence churches or pastors that teach that homosexuality is wrong.

Paidiske · Jan 17, 2021

rjs330 said:
Well I know that's not how you read it. But it is how others read it. And that is the concern. The application of the law is often different than the intent. And you have been shown by quite a few others the concerning portions.

If this law passes then I think we will have the answer as it is used. The thing is none of us really knows how it will be used or interpreted. Cause it doesn't just say, "thou shalt not use conversion therapy". There is all this other ambiguous language that appears to go beyond that. Why is all that other language there?

Why couldn't the law just say, we don't recognize conversion therapy as a legitimate therapy and it cannot be used? No, they had to toss in all that other language that could be used to try and silence churches or pastors that teach that homosexuality is wrong.

It's quite normal, with legislation, to give some background and explanation for why the bill is being brought and what the government aims to achieve. But the detail of what actually is and is not being forbidden is in the legislative portion, and that is really very clear.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 17, 2021

Paidiske said:
It's quite normal, with legislation, to give some background and explanation for why the bill is being brought and what the government aims to achieve. But the detail of what actually is and is not being forbidden is in the legislative portion, and that is really very clear.

So the government wants to make one law for it's self and another for the people. I don't buy this. The preamble shows what the law is attempting to do. Make people, at least in government, compy with the idea that homosexuality is not a "shortcoming", nor "some thing that needs to be changed" (All definitions of the bill).

You are right it will not effect "your" preaching, for you hold the idea that homosexuality comes from the womb. Whereas the bible states it is the result of a person turning from Christ, and God gives them over to a reprobate mind. This "giving over" occurs in adult life not the womb. Acknowledge that. Don't make excuses for your beliefs.

Paidiske · Jan 17, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
So the government wants to make one law for it's self and another for the people. I don't buy this. The preamble shows what the law is attempting to do. Make people, at least in government, compy with the idea that homosexuality is not a "shortcoming", nor "some thing that needs to be changed" (All definitions of the bill).

It is one thing for the government to say, "in making this legislation, we wish to affirm that our position is x, and on that basis, we forbid y." Nobody else is then required to affirm x, only to avoid y.

FutureAndAHope said:
You are right it will not effect "your" preaching, for you hold the idea that homosexuality comes from the womb. Whereas the bible states it is the result of a person turning from Christ, and God gives them over to a reprobate mind. This "giving over" occurs in adult life not the womb. Acknowledge that. Don't make excuses for your beliefs.

While this might be a very interesting discussion, it cannot happen in this forum.

FutureAndAHope · Jan 17, 2021

Paidiske said:
While this might be a very interesting discussion, it cannot happen in this forum.

I have created a thread in an appropriate part of the forum. Please feel free to defend your view point as I will mine. Homosexuality the early churches view should be ours

hedrick · Jan 17, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
I have created a thread in an appropriate part of the forum. Please feel free to defend your view point as I will mine. Homosexuality the early churches view should be ours

I don't think the rules there are different. I believe there is no place in CF where a discussion of the morality of same-gender sex can be conducted. In most of the site it is a violation to defend its acceptability. In the Liberal forum it is a violation to attack its acceptability.

kiwimac · Jan 17, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
That is not a church it is a devil.

And you would be wrong.

nonaeroterraqueous · Jan 17, 2021

kiwimac said:
And you would be wrong.

And you would be wrong. That's not a church.

In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

Well-Known Member

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured

Well-Known Member

Just me

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Clara bonam audax

Just me

Clara bonam audax

Well-Known Member

Clara bonam audax

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Clara bonam audax

Just me

Clara bonam audax

Just me

Senior Veteran

Bishop of the See of Aotearoa ROCCNZ;Theologian

Nonexistent Member

Similar threads