How many laws are too many?

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
They have pointed to many things; and they continue to point to may things regarding YHWH's progressive revelation.

Let's look at Passover. When Isaac was spared by the ram in the thicket; it was a shadow of what was to come. Abraham was obedient to YHWH; and Isaac was passed over. The came Moses, who too was a shadow of what was to come. Moses was obedient to YHWH; and Israel was passed over. Then came Yahshua. He too was obedient to YHWH, and Israel was offered a renewed covenant. They were passed over, despite their fathers having rebelled against YHWH. He tabernacled with us briefly but this too was a shadow of what is to come.

Do you not believe that Yahshua will return?
Do you not believe that there will be wrath as in the days of Moses, and as in the days after Yahshua's departure?
Do you not believe that YHWH's people will be passed over in that wrath?
Do you not believe that Yahshua will tabernacle with his sheep again?

The Moedim are are called feasts by many. This doesn't even remotely resemble the Hebrew meaning of the word. The word means rehearsal, or appointment. These are appointments that our Father has made with us. We are to take this time to try to understand his plan for us. There are many lessons to be learned, not just on a historical, nor just on a prophetic level; but also in a personal spiritual level.

It would take at least seven threads to even begin to cover their depth.

It surprises me that it seems that you don't recognize what the Sabbath points to.

Scripture is the key...

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 [7], Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even CHRIST OUR PASSOVER IS SACRIFICES FOR US:[8], THEREFORE LET US KEEP THE FEAST NOT WITH OLD LEAVEN, NEITHER WITH THE LEAVEN OF WICKEDNESS AND MALICE BUT IN SINCERITY AND TRUTH.

The Passover lamb represents JESUS... *John 1:29

What about the rest of the questions asked of you?
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,687
8,038
US
✟1,060,793.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
1 Corinthians 9:20-21 NLT [20] "WHEN I AM WITH THE JEWS I BECOME ONE OF THEM SO THAT I CAN BRING THEM TO CHRIST. WHEN I AM WITH THOSE WHO FOLLOW THE JEWISH LAWS, I DO THE SAME, EVEN THOUGH I AM NOT SUBJECT TO THE [MOSAIC] LAW, SO THAT I CAN BRING THEM TO CHRIST. [21] When I am with the Gentiles who do not have the Jewish law, I fit in with them as much as I can. In this way, I gain their confidence and bring them to Christ. But I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ."

This is not what scripture says; and it's being pulled out of context.


Compare this literal translation:

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

I leave it to you, to reconcile that with your paraphrased translation.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,687
8,038
US
✟1,060,793.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Scripture is the key...

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 [7], Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even CHRIST OUR PASSOVER IS SACRIFICES FOR US:[8], THEREFORE LET US KEEP THE FEAST NOT WITH OLD LEAVEN, NEITHER WITH THE LEAVEN OF WICKEDNESS AND MALICE BUT IN SINCERITY AND TRUTH.

The Passover lamb represents JESUS... *John 1:29

And?
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
This is not what scripture says; and it's being pulled out of context.


Compare this literal translation:

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

I leave it to you, to reconcile that with your paraphrased translation.

No it is not. That is what the scripture says...

1 Corinthians 9:20-21 NLT [20] "WHEN I AM WITH THE JEWS I BECOME ONE OF THEM SO THAT I CAN BRING THEM TO CHRIST. WHEN I AM WITH THOSE WHO FOLLOW THE JEWISH LAWS, I DO THE SAME, EVEN THOUGH I AM NOT SUBJECT TO THE [MOSAIC] LAW, SO THAT I CAN BRING THEM TO CHRIST. [21] When I am with the Gentiles who do not have the Jewish law, I fit in with them as much as I can. In this way, I gain their confidence and bring them to Christ. But I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ."

...............

Romans 3:31 31, Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law.

No reconciling needed. The context is to God's law (10 commandments) that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken that all the world becomes guilty by *Romans 3:9-20; Romans 7:7.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Who does the scriptures say Passover represents?

Scripture is the key...

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 [7], Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even CHRIST OUR PASSOVER IS SACRIFICED FOR US:[8], THEREFORE LET US KEEP THE FEAST NOT WITH OLD LEAVEN, NEITHER WITH THE LEAVEN OF WICKEDNESS AND MALICE BUT IN SINCERITY AND TRUTH.

The Passover lamb represents JESUS, who is God's sacrifice for the sins of the world...

John 1:29 [29], The next day JOHN SEE JESUS COMING TO HIM AND SAID, BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD.

Can you see this dear friend?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,687
8,038
US
✟1,060,793.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
No need as the question was answered for you in post # 58 linked

I'm not interested in a butchered translation and commentary that attempts to dismiss what YHWH clearly stated.

Sorry, that doesn't trump YHWH's word.

I find it laughable, yet repulsive, that this commentator paints Paul as a hypocrite; then says that he's not a hypocrite.

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.


YHWH's moedim are eternal. So it is written. All the commentary in the world can't dance around that.

By the way none of what you posted explains why the other Apostles kept the Moedim; and why when rumor came around that Paul was teaching against the Torah; James, head of the ecclesia, ordered Paul to make sacrifices for the Nazarite Vow, to prove that this wasn't true. None of this explains why Paul complied with James, brother of Yahshua, one of three of the Apostles who were in the inner circle, one of three who knew Yahshua better than anyone else, the head of ecclesia, and followed his order.

Here's your answer.

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

I'll follow Paul, as Paul followed Yahshua, as Yahshua followed his father's Torah.

You are free to follow your commentator.
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,687
8,038
US
✟1,060,793.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
Who does the scriptures say Passover represents?

Scripture is the key...

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 [7], Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even CHRIST OUR PASSOVER IS SACRIFICES FOR US:[8], THEREFORE LET US KEEP THE FEAST NOT WITH OLD LEAVEN, NEITHER WITH THE LEAVEN OF WICKEDNESS AND MALICE BUT IN SINCERITY AND TRUTH.

The Passover lamb represents JESUS, who is God's sacrifice for the sins of the world...

John 1:29 [29], The next day JOHN SEE JESUS COMING TO HIM AND SAID, BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD.

Can you see this dear friend?

I saw that when I was a child. What's your point?
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I'm not interested in a butchered translation and commentary that attempts to dismiss what YHWH clearly stated.
I see, so in your view if the majority of translation disagree with your teachings then they are butchered? For me personally I like to look at most of the translations, though I more often or not use the kjv and then look at the Greek and Hebrew.
Sorry, that doesn't trump YHWH's word.
If I used YHWH's Word how does YHWH's word trump YHWH's Word? God's word does not contradict itself. It is true though YHWH's Word does not trump itself.
I find it laughable, yet repulsive, that this commentator paints Paul as a hypocrite; then says that he's not a hypocrite.
I do not believe the commentator did any such thing. He was only commentating on what the scriptures said as shown below..

1 Corinthians 9:20-21 NLT [20] "WHEN I AM WITH THE JEWS I BECOME ONE OF THEM SO THAT I CAN BRING THEM TO CHRIST. WHEN I AM WITH THOSE WHO FOLLOW THE JEWISH LAWS, I DO THE SAME, EVEN THOUGH I AM NOT SUBJECT TO THE [MOSAIC] LAW, SO THAT I CAN BRING THEM TO CHRIST. [21] When I am with the Gentiles who do not have the Jewish law, I fit in with them as much as I can. In this way, I gain their confidence and bring them to Christ. But I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ."

I personally believe if Paul taught in Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17 and 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 that CHRIST IS OUR PASSOVER in the new covenant then went off to partake of the old covenant Passover that pointed to the new covenant Passover in Christ then that would make Paul a hypocrite. As posted earlier through the scriptures Paul kept the feasts to preach the gospel and bring others to Christ our true Passover who is sacrificed for us. HARK! what better time to preach the gospel to the JEWS who did not accept Christ? Paul used this time to show them what these shadows pointed to and continue in. Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us! Not only is Jesus God's sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29 but he is also our great High Priest ministering on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary of which the earthly was only a copy *Hebrews 9:1-17.
(CLV) Ro 7:25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.
These laws are not in reference to the laws for remission of sin so not sure why you post this scripture here. The context to Romans 7:25 is to the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is in *Romans 7:7. You may want to consider context before posting the scriptures.
YHWH's moedim are eternal. So it is written. All the commentary in the world can't dance around that.
Who said they were not eternal? I have never said they were abolished have I? The scriptures teach they are fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to and continue in Him as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world and the ministration of Jesus as our new High Priest in the heavenly Sanctuary made without hands of which the earthly was only a copy under the new covenant made of better promises according to Hebrews (see Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17).
By the way none of what you posted explains why the other Apostles kept the Moedim; and why when rumor came around that Paul was teaching against the Torah; James, head of the ecclesia, ordered Paul to make sacrifices for the Nazarite Vow, to prove that this wasn't true. None of this explains why Paul complied with James, brother of Yahshua, one of three of the Apostles who were in the inner circle, one of three who knew Yahshua better than anyone else, the head of ecclesia, and followed his order.
Sure it does read Hebrews. There are no more shadow laws for remission of sin from the old covenant they are fulfilled in Christ based on better promises in the new covenant (see Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17).

As posted earlier..

1 Corinthians 9:20-21 NLT [20] "WHEN I AM WITH THE JEWS I BECOME ONE OF THEM SO THAT I CAN BRING THEM TO CHRIST. WHEN I AM WITH THOSE WHO FOLLOW THE JEWISH LAWS, I DO THE SAME, EVEN THOUGH I AM NOT SUBJECT TO THE [MOSAIC] LAW, SO THAT I CAN BRING THEM TO CHRIST. [21] When I am with the Gentiles who do not have the Jewish law, I fit in with them as much as I can. In this way, I gain their confidence and bring them to Christ. But I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ."

Not a single scripture you have used earlier says Paul was going to the Feasts with the sole intent to keep them and nowhere does he tell Christians to keep the Feasts in the new testament scriptures. He was going to the Feasts to share the gospel to the Jews who did not accept Jesus as the Christ.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I saw that when I was a child. What's your point?

The Passover is a "shadow" that represents JESUS - "CHRIST OUR PASSOVER IS SACRIFICED FOR US" - 1 Corinthians 5:7-8. The Passover lamb represents JESUS, who is God's sacrifice for the sins of the world - John 1:29
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,022
4,233
USA
✟470,826.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
All of God's laws are part of the laws of God and have the same moral authority regardless of whether He wrote them, whether He told Moses to write them, or even if He had just spoken them without anyone writings them down, and all of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160), not just ten of them. While I agree that there was a distinction that was made between the Ten Commandments and God's other laws, that does not mean that God's other laws are not part of the laws of God, or that the Ten Commandments are not part of the laws of Moses.



I think that your sentence might have gotten garble, so can you please clarify it?

All the laws were directed by God but some of the laws like the ceremonial laws -circumcision, feasts, animal sacrifices ended at the cross. Colossians 2. The Ten Commandments, Gods laws are meant to be eternal. Psalm 111:7-9

The Law of Moses is different than the commandments of God (the Ten) and the Bible makes a distinction of the two, some I already noted, the Ten was inside the ark and also written by God. The law of Moses was outside and was only spoken by God but written by Moses. Here are a couple examples of the law of Moses:

2nd Chronicles23:18
Also Jehoiada appointed the oversight of the house of the Lord to the hand of the priests, the Levites, whom David had assigned in the house of the Lord, to offer the burnt offerings of the Lord, as it is written in the Law of Moses, with rejoicing and with singing, as it was established by David.

There is nothing in the Ten about burnt offerings

Ezra 3:2
Then Jeshua the son of Jozadak and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel and his brethren, arose and built the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings on it, as it is written in the Law of Moses the man of God.

Circumcision is another example:

John 7:23
23 If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?

And as Paul went on to say what is important

1 Corinthians 7:19
19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

It seems pretty clear that Gods Ten commandments are not the same as the law of Moses.

God bless
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,687
8,038
US
✟1,060,793.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
No it is not. That is what the scripture says...

1 Corinthians 9:20-21 NLT [20] "WHEN I AM WITH THE JEWS I BECOME ONE OF THEM SO THAT I CAN BRING THEM TO CHRIST. WHEN I AM WITH THOSE WHO FOLLOW THE JEWISH LAWS, I DO THE SAME, EVEN THOUGH I AM NOT SUBJECT TO THE [MOSAIC] LAW, SO THAT I CAN BRING THEM TO CHRIST. [21] When I am with the Gentiles who do not have the Jewish law, I fit in with them as much as I can. In this way, I gain their confidence and bring them to Christ. But I do not discard the law of God; I obey the law of Christ."

Perhaps this will help:

20 And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should be gaining Jews; to those under (υπο) law (νομονas) under (υπο)law (νομονas) (not being myself under (υπο) law (νομονas) ), that I should be gaining those under (υπο) law (νομονas) ;

UNDER THE LAW!
The first time Paul mentions this in the Bible is in Romans 3:19. There he defines who it applies to.

(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Let's look at this very carefully. The law speaks to those under the law.

The law speaks so that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's judgement.

The preceding verse serves to further define the behavior of those who are under the law:

(CLV) Ro 3:18
There is not fear of God in front of their eyes.

Why would we fear or loving Abba?

(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.


The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah.


21 to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally (εννομος) Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law.

"Not being without," is a double negative. Paul is with YHWH's Law.

You can find a full walkthrough of this chapter, in context, here: Paul on the Law: 1 Corinthians 9
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,687
8,038
US
✟1,060,793.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
I personally believe if Paul taught in Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17 and 1 Corinthians 5:7-8 that CHRIST IS OUR PASSOVER in the new covenant then went off to partake of the old covenant Passover that pointed to the new covenant Passover in Christ then that would make Paul a hypocrite.

You believe that remembering and honoring YHWH's Passover makes us hypocrites? Really?

How so?

Do you not see that Moses leading Yah's people out of the bondage of Egypt, as YHWH passed over his people with his wrath, is completely in parallel with Yahshua leading Yah's people out of bondage, as they are passed over by YHWH's wrath? Furthermore, can you not see how the same will occur at Yahshua's second coming? Can you not see the parallel that, in Yahshua, the same is happening in the lives, of those who believe, right now?

Paul, and the other Apostles, kept the Moedim as Yahshua did.
I embrace their teachings and example, in submission to YHWH's commandments.

Exodus 12:24
Complete Jewish Bible

24 You are to observe this as a law, you and your descendants forever.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
All the laws were directed by God but some of the laws like the ceremonial laws -circumcision, feasts, animal sacrifices ended at the cross. Colossians 2. The Ten Commandments, Gods laws are meant to be eternal. Psalm 111:7-9

The Bible never specifies which laws are ceremonial and never even refers to that as being a subcategory, so it is up to the individual to decide which laws are ceremonial, which varies widely depending on whom I ask, and which creates a major problem with people wanting to interpret Paul as referring to ceremonial laws without first establishing which laws Paul thought belonged in hat subcategory, or without even establishing that he considered that to be a subcategory of law, especially when Colossians 2 does say anything about any laws being ended at the cross.

There is a major difference between these two statements:

1.) You shall not commit murder.

2.) This person has been found guilty of murder.

The first is an example of a law that was given for our own good while the second is an example of a hand-written ordinance that was against someone that was nailed to their cross in order to announce why they were being executed. Crosses were never used for the purpose of ending laws, so what was nailed to crosses was not a list of the laws themselves, but a list of their violations of the law, or the charges that were against them (Matthew 27:37). This served as a perfect analogy for the list of our violations of God's law being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with ending any of the laws that God has given, especially because they are all eternal (Psalms 119:160). In Titus 2:14, it doesn't say that Jesus gave himself to end any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness, so saying that any laws were ended on the cross undermines what he went to the cross to accomplish.

The Law of Moses is different than the commandments of God (the Ten) and the Bible makes a distinction of the two, some I already noted, the Ten was inside the ark and also written by God. The law of Moses was outside and was only spoken by God but written by Moses. Here are a couple examples of the law of Moses:

2nd Chronicles23:18
Also Jehoiada appointed the oversight of the house of the Lord to the hand of the priests, the Levites, whom David had assigned in the house of the Lord, to offer the burnt offerings of the Lord, as it is written in the Law of Moses, with rejoicing and with singing, as it was established by David.

There is nothing in the Ten about burnt offerings

Ezra 3:2
Then Jeshua the son of Jozadak and his brethren the priests, and Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel and his brethren, arose and built the altar of the God of Israel, to offer burnt offerings on it, as it is written in the Law of Moses the man of God.

Circumcision is another example:

John 7:23
23 If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath?

And as Paul went on to say what is important

1 Corinthians 7:19
19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

It seems pretty clear that Gods Ten commandments are not the same as the law of Moses.

God bless

God gave both the Ten Commandments and all of the other Mosaic laws, so they are all commandments of God. Likewise, God gave the Ten Commandments and all of the other Mosaic laws to Israel through Moses as a mediator of the Mosaic Covenant so they are all Mosaic laws. So while I agree that the Bible does make a distinction between them and they are not the same, the distinction is between some of the commandments of God and other commandments of God, or between some of the Mosaic laws and other Mosaic laws.

In Isaiah 45:17, it says that all Israel will be saved, which has led some Jews to mistakenly think that they are saved by virtue of them being circumcised and that what matters is whether someone has been circumcised, not their obedience to God's other commandments. There were also some Jews who considered themselves to have a higher status in the Kingdom of God by virtue of them being circumcised. Incidentally, Isaiah 45:17 is also why there were some Jews who mistakenly thought that Gentiles needed to become circumcised in order to become Jews and part of Israel in order to become saved.

While Paul said that circumcision has no value and that what matters is keeping the commandments of God, he also said that circumcision has much value in every way (Romans 3:1-2), so the issue is the circumcision has no inherent value and that its value is entirely derived from whether we keep the Mosaic Law (Romans 2:25). The way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-16, 30:6), while having an uncircumcised heart is associated with refusing to submit to the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 9:25-26, Acts 7:51-53).
 
Upvote 0

HARK!

שמע
Christian Forums Staff
Supervisor
Supporter
Oct 29, 2017
54,687
8,038
US
✟1,060,793.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Private
All the laws were directed by God but some of the laws like the ceremonial laws -circumcision, feasts, animal sacrifices ended at the cross.

Who told you that; and why did you believe them over Yahshua?

This was one of the last things that Yahshua said before he ascended:

(CLV) Lk 24:44
Now He said to them, "These are My words, which I speak to you, still being with you, for all must be fulfilled that is written in the law of Moses and the prophets and psalms concerning Me."

Contrary to popular believe all of the law and the prophets have not yet been fulfilled.

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring



(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness

Wait.

What is righteousness?

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS


should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps this will help:

20 And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should be gaining Jews; to those under (υπο) law (νομονas) under (υπο)law (νομονas) (not being myself under (υπο) law (νομονas) ), that I should be gaining those under (υπο) law (νομονas) ;

UNDER THE LAW!
The first time Paul mentions this in the Bible is in Romans 3:19. There he defines who it applies to.

(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

Let's look at this very carefully. The law speaks to those under the law.

The law speaks so that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's judgement.

The preceding verse serves to further define the behavior of those who are under the law:

(CLV) Ro 3:18
There is not fear of God in front of their eyes.

Why would we fear or loving Abba?

(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.


The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.

I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA

Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah.


21 to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally (εννομος) Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law.

"Not being without," is a double negative. Paul is with YHWH's Law.

You can find a full walkthrough of this chapter, in context, here: Paul on the Law: 1 Corinthians 9

HARK! I read all this and I still do not know what your point is here to be honest to what your quoting from. Did you want to have another try at explaining your meaning here?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You believe that remembering and honoring YHWH's Passover makes us hypocrites? Really?

How so?

Do you not see that Moses leading Yah's people out of the bondage of Egypt, as YHWH passed over his people with his wrath, is completely in parallel with Yahshua leading Yah's people out of bondage, as they are passed over by YHWH's wrath? Furthermore, can you not see how the same will occur at Yahshua's second coming? Can you not see the parallel that, in Yahshua, the same is happening in the lives, of those who believe, right now?

Paul, and the other Apostles, kept the Moedim as Yahshua did.
I embrace their teachings and example, in submission to YHWH's commandments.

Exodus 12:24
Complete Jewish Bible

24 You are to observe this as a law, you and your descendants forever.

As posted earlier, we keep Passover today and continue keeping it forever through Christ to which the "shadows" of the old covenant scriptures point to in the new covenant...

Scripture is the key...

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 [7], Purge out therefore the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, as you are unleavened. For even CHRIST OUR PASSOVER IS SACRIFICED FOR US:[8], THEREFORE LET US KEEP THE FEAST NOT WITH OLD LEAVEN, NEITHER WITH THE LEAVEN OF WICKEDNESS AND MALICE BUT IN SINCERITY AND TRUTH.

The Passover lamb represents JESUS, who is God's sacrifice for the sins of the world...

John 1:29 [29], The next day JOHN SEE JESUS COMING TO HIM AND SAID, BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD THAT TAKES AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD.

We are in the new covenant now not the old and the new covenant is based on better promises to which the shadow laws pointed to and are continued in which is Christ as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world and Jesus who is now our great High Priest who ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands in a new covenant based on better promises. It is time to leave the shadows as there is no more animal sacrifices for sins, Levitical Priesthood or ministration in an earthly temple anymore under God's new covenant promises as already shown in the book of Hebrews.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
imge said: All the laws were directed by God but some of the laws like the ceremonial laws -circumcision, feasts, animal sacrifices ended at the cross.
Your response here..
Who told you that; and why did you believe them over Yahshua?
God's Word tells us in Colossians 2:11-17. The meaning here is that we are not under the old covenant now but the new covenant to which the old covenant "shadow laws" pointed to in Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-17; Ephesians 2:15 and 1 Corinthians 5:7-8. No one is saying these laws are "abolished" but "superseded" and continued based on better promises. The "shadow laws" all pointed to and are continued in Christ and His work on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary made without hands of which the earthly was only a copy.
This was one of the last things that Yahshua said before he ascended: (CLV) Lk 24:44 Now He said to them, "These are My words, which I speak to you, still being with you, for all must be fulfilled that is written in the law of Moses and the prophets and psalms concerning Me." Contrary to popular believe all of the law and the prophets have not yet been fulfilled.
It is best to look at the whole context of Luke 24:44 which is in regards to the death and resurrection of Jesus, all things being fulfilled in the law and the prophets concerning him and the gospel commission.

Luke 24:44-46 [44], And he said to them, THESE ARE THE WORDS WHICH I SPOKE TO YOU WHILE I WAS YET WITH YOU THAT ALL THINGS MIGHT BE FULFILLED WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAW OF MOSES AND IN THE PROPHETS AND IN THE PSALMS CONCERNING ME.
[45], Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
[46], And said to them, THUS IT IS WRITTEN AND THUS IT BEHOOVED CHRIST TO SUFFER AND TO RISE FROM THE DEAD THE THIRD DAY: [47], AND THAT REPENTANCE AND REMISSION OF SINS SHOULD BE PREACHED IN HIS NAME AMONG THE NATIONS BEGINNING AT JERUSALEM.

As shown in the context of Luke 24:44 the application to the death and resurrection of Jesus all things being fulfilled in the law and the prophets concerning him and the gospel commission.
(CLV) Mt 5:18 For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring (CLV) Mt 5:19 "Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens.(CLV) Mt 5:20 For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness Wait. What is righteousness? Definition of righteous 1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin Definition of RIGHTEOUS should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.
So what are you saying here HARK!? Are you saying that all things have not been fulfilled in regards to the death and resurrection of JESUS? The scriptures you quoted above show all things being fulfilled in regards to the law and the prophets to the death and resurrection of Christ in Luke 24:44-46 then your posting scripture here to try to argue that all things are not fulfilled in regard to the death and resurrection of Christ. Are you trying to say that the death and resurrection of Christ has not been fulfilled? Just trying to point out the context to the scriptures you quoted dear friend is to the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Hope this is helpful.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The Bible never specifies which laws are ceremonial and never even refers to that as being a subcategory, so it is up to the individual to decide which laws are ceremonial, which varies widely depending on whom I ask, and which creates a major problem with people wanting to interpret Paul as referring to ceremonial laws without first establishing which laws Paul thought belonged in hat subcategory, or without even establishing that he considered that to be a subcategory of law, especially when Colossians 2 does say anything about any laws being ended at the cross.

The bible does indeed specify different categories of law that are moral, ceremonial, civil, health and dietary etc. When referencing "ceremonial laws" in Colossians 2, this is in reference to Paul's use of the Greek word "Dogma" in Colossians 2:14 that Paul uses in regards to the "the laws in ordinances" that are nailed to the cross. The Greek word used here for ordinance is "dogma" and means civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical laws. Of course it is context that determines application and the context from Colossians 2:11-17 is physical "circumcision, baptism, laws in ordinances, new moons, meat and drink offerings, the Feasts and their sabbaths (not the 4th commandment) that are all shadow laws being nailed to the cross. This does not mean that these "shadow laws" are abolished but fulfilled under the new covenant based on better promises and are continued in that to which they point to and are continued in that to which they pointed - Christ.

Ceremonial laws in the bible (adjective meaning) are any laws that relate to ceremony, or external rite; ritual; according to the forms of established rites; as ceremonial exactness. It is particularly applied to the forms and rites of the Jewish religion; as the ceremonial law or worship, as distinguished from the moral and judicial law. The noun means outward form; external rite, or established forms or rites, including all the forms prescribed; a system of rules and ceremonies, enjoined by law. Hebrew definition is provided below has many meanings and it is context and application that determines the correct meaning in the scriptures...

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong -
Ceremonies H4941 משׁפּט; mishpâṭ; From H8199; properly a verdict (favorable or unfavorable) pronounced judicially, especially a sentence or formal decree (human or (particularly) divine law, individual or collectively), including the act, the place, the suit, the crime, and the penalty; abstractly justice, including a particular right, or privilege (statutory or customary), or even a style: - + adversary, ceremony, charge, X crime, custom, desert, determination, discretion, disposing, due, fashion, form, to be judged, judgment, just (-ice, -ly), (manner of) law (-ful), manner, measure, (due) order, ordinance, right, sentence, usest, X worthy, + wrong.

Of course there are many meanings in both the Hebrew and Greek language and it is the context and application that determines their usage as shown in reference to Numbers 9.

Numbers 9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, you shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and ACCORDING TO THE CEREMONIES THEREOF, shall you keep it.

In the scriptures ceremonial laws are mostly seen in the laws for remission of sins where external rites (also meaning ceremony) where practiced in the Levitical Priesthood, Sanctuary laws of atonement for sin and all the offerings given for remission of sins, thank offerings etc, as well as the annual Feast days of Leviticus 23 and these laws can also been seen in Numbers and Deuteronomy etc..
There is a major difference between these two statements:

1.) You shall not commit murder.
2.) This person has been found guilty of murder.

The first is an example of a law that was given for our own good while the second is an example of a hand-written ordinance that was against someone that was nailed to their cross in order to announce why they were being executed. Crosses were never used for the purpose of ending laws, so what was nailed to crosses was not a list of the laws themselves, but a list of their violations of the law, or the charges that were against them (Matthew 27:37). This served as a perfect analogy for the list of our violations of God's law being nailed to Christ's cross and with him dying in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, but has nothing to do with ending any of the laws that God has given, especially because they are all eternal (Psalms 119:160). In Titus 2:14, it doesn't say that Jesus gave himself to end any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness, so saying that any laws were ended on the cross undermines what he went to the cross to accomplish.
The first example used here in "you shall not commit murder" is to the 10 commandments Exodus 20:13 which is a moral law. Which is right doing when obeyed and sin when broken. The second example used "a person being found guilty of murder" is not an ordinance but a "judgement" pronounced against someone that has been found guilty of breaking the law. Being found guilty of breaking the law means we are subject to the penalty for breaking the law. Paul's use of the Greek word "Dogma" in Colossians 2:14 that Paul uses in regards to the "the laws in ordinances" that are nailed to the cross is from the Greek word used "dogma" and means civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. Of course it is context that determines application and the context from Colossians 2:11-17 is physical "circumcision, baptism, laws in ordinances, being nailed to the cross as well as and includes the "shadow laws" that are not abolished but fulfilled under the new covenant based on better promises and are continued in that to which they point to. So while it is also true that the penalty of sin (death) is against us and is nailed to the cross in the death of Jesus as God's sacrifice for the sins of mankind, it is also true that the shadow laws of remission of sin under the old covenant have also been nailed to the cross in Jesus as our great sacrifice for sin to which these shadow laws of forgiveness under the old covenant point to.
God gave both the Ten Commandments and all of the other Mosaic laws, so they are all commandments of God. Likewise, God gave the Ten Commandments and all of the other Mosaic laws to Israel through Moses as a mediator of the Mosaic Covenant so they are all Mosaic laws. So while I agree that the Bible does make a distinction between them and they are not the same, the distinction is between some of the commandments of God and other commandments of God, or between some of the Mosaic laws and other Mosaic laws.
God did indeed give all the laws of Torah although what we are dealing with today is two covenants one is the old covenant given to physical Israel in the flesh while the new covenant based on better promises is given to God's Israel in the Spirit who are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. Gentile believers are now grafted in according to the scriptures *Romans 11:13-27. God's Israel today are not in the flesh of the seed of Abraham but in the promises given in God's Word *Romans 9:6-8. So what makes us God's Israel today is in believing and following Gods' Word. Under the new covenant the "shadow laws" for remission of sins (e.g. animal sacrifices; Levitical Priesthood; Sanctuary laws and other shadow laws) that pointed to JESUS as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world (see Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-17; John 1:29 and 1 Corinthians 5:7-8) have now been fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to. Fulfilled here as stated earlier does not mean abolished as many teach but "continued" under a new covenant made from better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. In the new covenant Chris is God's sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29 and he is our Great High priest that ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands *Hebrews 8:1-13. It is also the old covenant that is nailed to the cross which starts the new covenant that points to Jesus and God's plan of salvation based on better promises (no more shadow laws for remission of sin that are fulfilled and continued in Christ made from better promises).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,416
4,600
Hudson
✟281,745.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
The bible does indeed specify different categories of law that are moral, ceremonial, civil, health and dietary etc. When referencing "ceremonial laws" in Colossians 2, this is in reference to Paul's use of the Greek word "Dogma" in Colossians 2:14 that Paul uses in regards to the "the laws in ordinances" that are nailed to the cross. The Greek word used here for ordinance is "dogma" and means civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical laws. Of course it is context that determines application and the context from Colossians 2:11-17 is physical "circumcision, baptism, laws in ordinances, new moons, meat and drink offerings, the Feasts and their sabbaths (not the 4th commandment) that are all shadow laws being nailed to the cross. This does not mean that these "shadow laws" are abolished but fulfilled under the new covenant based on better promises and are continued in that to which they point to and are continued in that to which they pointed - Christ.

You should not interpret fulfilling God's laws are meaning essentially the same thing as abolishing them when Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish them, but rather Jesus fulfilled the law by teaching us how to obey them by word and by example. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, yet you do not consistently interpret that in the same way. While the New Covenant is based on better promises and has a superior mediator, it still involves following the same law, which has always pointed toward Christ (Hebrews 8:10).

Ceremonial laws in the bible (adjective meaning) are any laws that relate to ceremony, or external rite; ritual; according to the forms of established rites; as ceremonial exactness. It is particularly applied to the forms and rites of the Jewish religion; as the ceremonial law or worship, as distinguished from the moral and judicial law. The noun means outward form; external rite, or established forms or rites, including all the forms prescribed; a system of rules and ceremonies, enjoined by law. Hebrew definition is provided below has many meanings and it is context and application that determines the correct meaning in the scriptures...

Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong -
Ceremonies H4941 משׁפּט; mishpâṭ; From H8199; properly a verdict (favorable or unfavorable) pronounced judicially, especially a sentence or formal decree (human or (particularly) divine law, individual or collectively), including the act, the place, the suit, the crime, and the penalty; abstractly justice, including a particular right, or privilege (statutory or customary), or even a style: - + adversary, ceremony, charge, X crime, custom, desert, determination, discretion, disposing, due, fashion, form, to be judged, judgment, just (-ice, -ly), (manner of) law (-ful), manner, measure, (due) order, ordinance, right, sentence, usest, X worthy, + wrong.

Of course there are many meanings in both the Hebrew and Greek language and it is the context and application that determines their usage as shown in reference to Numbers 9.

Numbers 9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, you shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and ACCORDING TO THE CEREMONIES THEREOF, shall you keep it.

In the scriptures ceremonial laws are mostly seen in the laws for remission of sins where external rites (also meaning ceremony) where practiced in the Levitical Priesthood, Sanctuary laws of atonement for sin and all the offerings given for remission of sins, thank offerings etc, as well as the annual Feast days of Leviticus 23 and these laws can also been seen in Numbers and Deuteronomy etc..

"Mishpat" is mainly in regard to righteousness, justice, judgement, judicial rulings, and civil disputes, such as all of the laws listed in Exodus 21, like in regard to what happens if you strike someone and they die or the law against kidnapping, which does not correspond to your concept of ceremonial law. So even though mishpat can be in regard to ceremony, that does not mean that you can shoehorn your concept of ceremonial law into mishpat, especially because unlike the Bible your concept of ceremonial law is distinguished from moral and judicial law.

I have no problem with you describing some of God's laws as being ceremonial, but I do have a major problem was with you describing those laws as being ceremonial as opposed to moral, especially because the Bible never makes that distinction and never suggests that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Out of many translations listed at Biblehub, only three of them translated Numbers 9:3 using the word "ceremonies", but even if that were the correct translation, it does not establish that any of the authors of the Bible consider there to be a subcategory of ceremonial law, especially one that was in contrast with moral and judicial law.

The first example used here in "you shall not commit murder" is to the 10 commandments Exodus 20:13 which is a moral law. Which is right doing when obeyed and sin when broken. The second example used "a person being found guilty of murder" is not an ordinance but a "judgement" pronounced against someone that has been found guilty of breaking the law. Being found guilty of breaking the law means we are subject to the penalty for breaking the law. Paul's use of the Greek word "Dogma" in Colossians 2:14 that Paul uses in regards to the "the laws in ordinances" that are nailed to the cross is from the Greek word used "dogma" and means civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. Of course it is context that determines application and the context from Colossians 2:11-17 is physical "circumcision, baptism, laws in ordinances, being nailed to the cross as well as and includes the "shadow laws" that are not abolished but fulfilled under the new covenant based on better promises and are continued in that to which they point to. So while it is also true that the penalty of sin (death) is against us and is nailed to the cross in the death of Jesus as God's sacrifice for the sins of mankind, it is also true that the shadow laws of remission of sin under the old covenant have also been nailed to the cross in Jesus as our great sacrifice for sin to which these shadow laws of forgiveness under the old covenant point to.

"Dogma" is never once used by the Bible to refer to any of God's laws. It means "decree, edict, or ordinance", "decree" means "an official order issued by a legal authority", "edict" means "an official order or proclamation issued by a person in authority", and "ordinance" means "authoritative order; a decree". You can take your pick, but "dogma" does refer to a charge or a legal ruling that is against someone, such as that someone has been found guilty of murder. And again, it was the charges that were against people being crucified that were nailed to their crosses (Matthew 27:37). This has nothing to do with fulfilling any of God's laws or with any of them being nailed to the cross. The context is Paul encouraging the Colossians not to let anyone judge them and stop them from keeping God's holy days, so it is ironic when people try to use this passage to justify their refusal to keep God's holy days. Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and in Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from any laws, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness, so saying that there were any laws that were nailed to the cross undermines both what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross.

God did indeed give all the laws of Torah although what we are dealing with today is two covenants one is the old covenant given to physical Israel in the flesh while the new covenant based on better promises is given to God's Israel in the Spirit who are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. Gentile believers are now grafted in according to the scriptures *Romans 11:13-27. God's Israel today are not in the flesh of of the seed of Abraham but in the promises given in God's Word *Romans 9:6-8 so what makes us God's Israel today is in believing and following Gods' Word. Under the new covenant the "shadow laws" for remission of sins (e.g. animal sacrifices; Levitical Priesthood; Sanctuary laws and other shadow laws) that pointed to JESUS as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world (see Hebrews 7:1-28; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-28; Hebrews 10:1-17; John 1:29 and 1 Corinthians 5:7-8) have now been fulfilled in Christ to who they pointed to. Fulfilled here does not mean abolished as many teach but "continued" under a new covenant made from better promises *Hebrews 8:1-6. In the new covenant Chris is God's sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29 and he is our Great High priest that ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary not made with hands *Hebrews 8:1-13. It is also the old covenant that is nailed to the cross which starts the new covenant that points to Jesus and God's plan of salvation based on better promises (no more shadow laws for remission of sin that are fulfilled and continued in Christ made from better promises).

It is contradictory for someone to want to become grafted into Israel while wanting nothing to do with following the instructions that God gave to Israel. All of the Mosaic Law is God's word, so you are disbelieving and refusing to follow God's word. We should live in a way that points towards Jesus by keeping the laws that point toward him instead of living in a way that points away from him by refusing to follow those laws. You can't have your cake and eat it too, so it can't be the case that we should no longer continue to follow God's laws and that those laws are continued in Christ. Christ fulfilled the law so that we would have an example to follow, not so that we could be free to refuse to follow him, and those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0