What do our distant cousins in Europe think of the U.S. now?

2PhiloVoid

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They were both attacks on a symbol of state power.

And was Boris Yeltsin a hard line Communist at that time ? Who was "in" the Russian 'white house' when Yeltsin arrayed tanks against it?

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Vanellus

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And was Boris Yeltsin a hard line Communist at that time ? Who was "in" the Russian 'white house' when Yeltsin arrayed tanks against it?
And what is a "hard line communist" or a "soft line communist" for that matter?
These lazy labels that mean nothing.
But one thing your post does mean is blaming the victim. Yeltsin gets the army to shell the Russian parliament building and over 100 people are killed. How can that be justified?

In the Russian White House there was the Congress of People's Deputies and the Supreme Soviet. This was after the Soviet Union had been dissolved in 1991. Others killed were civil servants and military personnel in the defence ministry and internal ministry.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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And what is a "hard line communist" or a "soft line communist" for that matter?
These lazy labels that mean nothing.
But one thing your post does mean is blaming the victim. Yeltsin gets the army to shell the Russian parliament building and over 100 people are killed. How can that be justified?

In the Russian White House there was the Congress of People's Deputies and the Supreme Soviet. This was after the Soviet Union had been dissolved in 1991. Others killed were civil servants and military personnel in the defence ministry and internal ministry.

You obviously are not informed of who was already bunkdered down in he Russian White House and with whom Yeltsin was contending. I'd suggest you don't press this further. The point is that that incident was the reverse in nature from what happened last week at the U.S. Capitol.

Let's let it rest there. Just be careful of which analogies you attempt to make going on into the future.

Thank you!
 
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Vanellus

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You obviously are not informed of who was already bunkdered down in he Russian White House and with whom Yeltsin was contending. I'd suggest you don't press this further. The point is that that incident was the reverse in nature from what happened last week at the U.S. Capitol.

Let's let it rest there. Just be careful of which analogies you attempt to make going on into the future.
Weren't they human beings then? Why did they deserve to be murdered? You haven't answered that have you. Maybe because you don't have an answer. Who do you think they were and why did they deserve to be murdered?

I think censorship should be the role of the moderators.

My original statement was:
But if you look up what Boris Yeltsin did to the Moscow White House in 1993 you'll see that worse things have been done in the lust for political power.
and I think that >100 deaths is worse than 6.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Weren't they human beings then? Why did they deserve to be murdered? You haven't answered that have you. Maybe because you don't have an answer. Who do you think they were and why did they deserve to be murdered?

I think censorship should be the role of the moderators.

My original statement was:
and I think that >100 deaths is worse than 6.

I'm not understanding any of what you're either asking or saying here.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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This could be down to you.

No, I don't think it is, and being that I've had an entire semester of Russian Political History at the local state university (here in the U.S., of course), then I'm wondering from where you're getting your 'Russian History' lessons. Care to share those with me?

My point here is simply this. You're free to make analogies; I have no truck against you doing so. Just make sure that you understand the examples you're comparing before asserting that you've indeed made a valid analogy. Are we clear on that, brother Vanellus?
 
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HantsUK

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Had the events of last week taken place in many other countries, the rest of the world would have awoken the following day with the news of a very different outcome.

Trump had nullified the election results. He would remain in power until fresh elections could be carried out, free from corruption and voting rigging. In the meantime, the Army has been called in to maintain law and order. Anyone suspected of being involved in the election fraud will be arrested and held in in prison until trial at some unspecified future date. Basically anyone in leadership of the opposition party, and those of Trump's own party who had failed to support his previous allegations, now proven beyond any doubt.

Then perhaps a short time later, new elections, but barring anyone in prison waiting trial, from taking part. This would effectively bar the Democrats, giving Trump a guaranteed win.

Alternatively, after many years, still no elections.

But this did not happen.
 
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Nithavela

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Had the events of last week taken place in many other countries, the rest of the world would have awoken the following day with the news of a very different outcome.

Trump had nullified the election results. He would remain in power until fresh elections could be carried out, free from corruption and voting rigging. In the meantime, the Army has been called in to maintain law and order. Anyone suspected of being involved in the election fraud will be arrested and held in in prison until trial at some unspecified future date. Basically anyone in leadership of the opposition party, and those of Trump's own party who had failed to support his previous allegations, now proven beyond any doubt.

Then perhaps a short time later, new elections, but barring anyone in prison waiting trial, from taking part. This would effectively bar the Democrats, giving Trump a guaranteed win.

Alternatively, after many years, still no elections.

But this did not happen.
It's nice to see that the USA democracy is a bit more robust than most states.
 
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Vanellus

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No, I don't think it is, and being that I've had an entire semester of Russian Political History at the local state university (here in the U.S., of course), then I'm wondering from where you're getting your 'Russian History' lessons. Care to share those with me?

My point here is simply this. You're free to make analogies; I have no truck against you doing so. Just make sure that you understand the examples you're comparing before asserting that you've indeed made a valid analogy. Are we clear on that, brother Vanellus?

For someone who has such knowledge of Russian political history you still haven't said who you think were in the White House or why they deserved to be murdered.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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For someone who has such knowledge of Russian political history you still haven't said who you think were in the White House or why they deserved to be murdered.

It's not for me to be required to answer since you're the one who first initiated and broached the topic. If anything, it's you who needs to qualify and show scholarly support for his original statements.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm done with discussing this topic with you.

Thank you, and be blessed!
 
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grasping the after wind

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Do they think that we have lost our minds?

After the events that unfolded in twentieth century Europe, I hardly think their opinion on what is insane or not holds much weight.
 
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Vanellus

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It's not for me to be required to answer since you're the one who first initiated and broached the topic. If anything, it's you who needs to qualify and show scholarly support for his original statements.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm done with discussing this topic with you.

Thank you, and be blessed!
You previously made this assertion:
You obviously are not informed of who was already bunkdered down in he Russian White House and with whom Yeltsin was contending. I'd suggest you don't press this further. The point is that that incident was the reverse in nature from what happened last week at the U.S. Capitol.
Your subsequent posts never gave any grounds for this assertion therefore it is reasonable to assume it was groundless.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yeltsin was the poster boy of the west because of the perception that he ended "communism" - oligarchism and Putin being such an improvement!
But

Maybe Yeltsin wasn't such a great man after all.

And which administration in the U.S. was encouraging Yeltsin to pursue and capitalize on his break with the former Communist Regime in 1993?

Here, I'll help you answer this question by posting a link to the entire 'liberal' article that you all too briefly 'cited' up in post #11:

Yeltsin--Father of Democracy?
 
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Vanellus

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And which administration in the U.S. was encouraging Yeltsin to pursue and capitalize on his break with the former Communist Regime in 1993?

Here, I'll help you answer this question by posting a link to the entire 'liberal' article that you all too briefly 'cited' up in post #11:

Yeltsin--Father of Democracy?
Hmm!
As far as I'm concerned, I'm done with discussing this topic with you.
/Hmm!

I don't understand why you think I am a Democrat party supporter or have supported any Democrat party administration!

Quoting that The Nation article:
In October 1993, Yeltsin used tank cannons to destroy not only the Parliament that had brought him to power and defended him during the attempted coup of 1991 but the entire political, constitutional order of Russia’s post-Communist republic. The US government and media, with few exceptions, acted as Yeltsin’s cheerleaders as the Russian President’s tanks pounded Russia’s first ever popularly elected and fully independent legislature.
Note they were "elected" and I have already shown you that civil servants died as well.

You have still not answered the two questions I asked:

1. Who do you think was murdered in the Russian White House on Yeltsin's orders?
2. Why did all those people deserve to be murdered?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hmm!

/Hmm!

I don't understand why you think I am a Democrat party supporter or have supported any Democrat party administration!
I didn't say you were or have. This is a red-herring statement on your part and has nothing to do with anything we've been talking about.

Quoting that The Nation article:

Note they were "elected" and I have already shown you that civil servants died as well.
I would rather you read the entire article.

You have still not answered the two questions I asked:

1. Who do you think was murdered in the Russian White House on Yeltsin's orders?
2. Why did all those people deserve to be murdered?

Essentially, the phrasing of your questions, in my estimation, make them loaded questions, and in my view, loaded questions can be evaluated for what they are, maybe even ignored.

Besides, in reference to your questions, I'll just jump to the fact I don't mind seeing what are otherwise Communist regimes.......just disappear. I'm kind of thinking that God doesn't either.

Moreover, maybe we should add to the article which you chose from Wikipedia the following Wikipedia entry:

1993 Russian constitutional crisis - Wikipedia
 
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Vanellus

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And which administration in the U.S. was encouraging Yeltsin to pursue and capitalize on his break with the former Communist Regime in 1993?
This is a partisan party political question. One could call it a "loaded" question. So why did you ask it if not for a partisan party political reason?
I would rather you read the entire article.
Why not say which part of this article you want to discuss? Btw I didn't cite from this article. It was referenced within the Wikipedia page from which I did quote.
Essentially, the phrasing of your questions, in my estimation, make them loaded questions, and in my view, loaded questions can be evaluated for what they are, maybe even ignored.
Well I could call all your questions loaded as well and use that as an excuse not to answer them - hence confirming the idea that polarisation has reached such levels that irenic dialogue is not possible.

I'll just jump to the fact I don't mind seeing what are otherwise Communist regimes.......just disappear. I'm kind of thinking that God doesn't either.
So do you think the fact you label the people inside the White House can as "communist" that it was ok to murder them? Now when did Jesus ever say anything like that about the Romans who were occupying his homeland?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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This is a partisan party political question. One could call it a "loaded" question. So why did you ask it if not for a partisan party political reason?
I didn't ask for any political reason. I'm neither conservative nor liberal; I'm purple and not just any purple.

Why not say which part of this article you want to discuss?
How about the part of your wikipedia referenced article that states that it was the Clinton administration (Democrat) who was supporting Yeltsin? Shall we bring that into consideration?

Btw I didn't cite from this article. It was referenced within the Wikipedia page from which I did quote.
Right. You cited a bit in a Wikipedia article that was also referenced in that same Wikipedia; I'm just filling in the reference gap for you since you didn't really pay attention to any of that.

Well I could call all your questions loaded as well and use that as an excuse not to answer them - hence confirming the idea that polarisation has reached such levels that irenic dialogue is not possible.
No, I'm fairly confident I'm not loading my questions on you. I'm nudging you to "look further" into your own personal research when you seek to draw comparisons and analogies. My purpose here isn't to humuliate you nor to pull any rug from under you, especially being that you're a fellow brother in Christ.


So do you think the fact you label the people inside the White House can as "communist" that it was ok to murder them?
I didn't label them that way. Did you by chance read the part in the Wikepedia article I chose about who those folks were who invaded the White House and on whom Yeltsin sent in troops and tanks? [This also is not a loaded question... it's a question to nudge you to simply get more facts. That's all.]

Furthermore, I think it's difficult to slap a label on political death where civil tensions are involved and call it 'murder' when the civil conflict took place for reasons not exactly parallel to those we've seen in the U.S. lately. You should be more circumspect about the conceptualization of all of this when politics is involved.

Now when did Jesus ever say anything like that about the Romans who were occupying his homeland?
... I think we both know that governments are generally established by God and "do not bear the sword in vain." This was the case in the O.T., and it's still the case in the N.T., even though the Church itself shouldn't be applying the sword (whether in Russia or the U.S., or anywhere else for that matter). :cool:
 
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Vanellus

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I'm sorry to say 2Philovoid that I'm finding responding to your posts quite upsetting and I do not wish to communicate with you any further in this thread. Please do not message me about this or I will report you for harassment. I won't respond to you any more in this thread or read any reply in this thread you might make after this. And be assured that, unlike you, I will keep my promise.
 
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