Do you believe in Creationism or Evolutionism?

Are you a Creationist as per the OP definition.. a literal 7 day week of creation. Gen 1?

  • yes

    Votes: 21 35.6%
  • yes but I think that the entire galaxy as well as Earth, Sun and moon were created in those 7 days

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes but I think the entire universe was created in in those 7 literal days

    Votes: 9 15.3%
  • yes - but the Bible is wrong

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • yes - but I mix evolution with it in some way

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • No - but since I believe the Bible I think of this as a kind of creationism

    Votes: 7 11.9%
  • No - creationism is wrong, the Bible is wrong, I believe evolution is the real truth

    Votes: 3 5.1%
  • other

    Votes: 18 30.5%

  • Total voters
    59

LightLoveHope

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Definition of CREATIONISM
"Creationism: a doctrine or theory holding that matter, the various forms of life, and the world were created by God out of nothing and usually in the way described in Genesis "

For the sake of this thread - the way the Bible describes creationism in Genesis 1:3-2:4 is that in 6 evenings-and-mornings God created
the Sun
the moon,
our atmosphere,
and all life on Earth with man and all land animals created in a single "evening and morning" day 6.

So then clearly that belief in creationism is not also belief in evolutionism by any stretch and no text on evolution defines it as stated in the creationist text... "The Bible".

Since this is the "Creationism" forum ... so my question is ... do we actually have any creationists posting here - where the term is defined by that Bible definition?

(I am posting this thread because it is starting to look like there are very few if any actual creationists posting here in this forum ... as in "not a believer in evolutionism" ... is it all just evolutionists here?)
Creation in scripture is two views, a 7 day version, a garden version.

These are metaphors of intent and hierarchy. Weirdly we may all be a simulation, no less real or significant, so view origins as what is useful today going forward.

7 day creation is absurd in science terms, 300m thick chalk deposites made in a month, 800,000 year ice core in the Antarctic made in months, Noah's flood covering everything and all land life coming from the ark.

Genesis created 1300bc is unique. The stories speak to our time and resonate. God gave them to be taken by faith, so I do, but time and history I do not know how to place, but this does not change their meaning.

God bless you
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
there is no case in the Bible where evening-and-morning is not a 24 hour day.

and Exodus 20:11 confirms it.

The creation account has unprecedented aspects that other biblical accounts do not have.

God only came once in human flesh (another unprecedented event) -- but we can eisegete wildly into the gospels simply because it is a singular one-time event.

The exodus only happened once and was very unique and unprecedented event with 10 plagues -- but we can not eisegete wildly into the exodus account

Exegesis is best.

we may already agree on this point.
 
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BobRyan

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A thousand years is as a day in the sight of the Lord.

No creation or evolution text claims that "evening" used to last 500 years on Earth and "morning" lasted another 500 years. It does not help us to try and insert that idea in because it does not make it "fit better" into anything known or proposed for the history of life on Earth.
 
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BobRyan

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7 day creation is absurd in science terms,

the fact is that no scientist has ever created Earth or a world wide flood or created life, and no scientist has observed that happening on its own either. So not sure how a scientist has a way to "repeat" it "a different way".
 
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LightLoveHope

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the fact is that no scientist has ever created Earth or a world wide flood or created life, and no scientist has observed that happening on its own either. So not sure how a scientist has a way to "repeat" it "a different way".

The description of the universe we see through telescopes is so vast we hardly can comprehend it.
100 neptune years is 16,500 earth years.

Our solar system is vast, and very unusual. We know it is unique, and have not found another like it.
It is hard to describe the size of the biggest stars you can see in our galaxy, and there are billions of galaxies, moving over billions of years. Using the simple speed of light we can calculate the galaxy is 100,000 light years across. So for light to travel from one side to the other will take 100,000 years and it has to be old than this.

The nuclear fusion taking place in the sun, is unexpected, and our recreation of it in a torus, as a power source helps us to understand some of the mechanisms going on.

A 6,000 year creation does not fit, unless you want to create a picture universe that appeared just to make us think it is real.

The creation story is very earth centric, day and night, which is a feature of an orbiting planet around a star. Why have a stepped creation with days and nights, when this is merely a spinning earth feature. I would suggest because this is about the creation of earth within a bigger setting, telling us about origins and purpose, and failure in our relationship with the creator. When did anyone hear a talking snake? But the stories put forward profound emotional and relationship messages, which speak now, in context.

However creation came about, only an earth centric view would speak to us, so we can understand.
For me a more profound cultural issue, is the belief all men are born equal. Clearly we are not, some have serious disabilities and others are fantastically gifted. Equally some are very social and integrated while others are really dangerous. On this backdrop we have a moral framework of measurement and control, which God delivered to enable us to prosper. It is this tension that creationists and fatalists have a problem with, ie. if God knowingly creates us with our impulses where is guilt and innocence?

It is why the creation story is not just a story but also a philosophy of origins and authority, which lawless people desire to undermine and let hedonism rule. Many nihilists think philosophy is the origins of morality rather than biology and emotional bonding. Once you realise we need to love and to be part of an integrated community, you begin to see how Jesus breaths life to all.

I personally hold to the creation of earth as a separate event to the universe in which we live, like a seed planted in a garden. Nothing is necessarily as it appears, because like all puzzles the key is to what works as created by the puzzle maker. This maker has created every excuse we need to reject Him if we want, but also to find love and life and live it to the full.

God bless you
 
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1an

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No creation or evolution text claims that "evening" used to last 500 years on Earth and "morning" lasted another 500 years. It does not help us to try and insert that idea in because it does not make it "fit better" into anything known or proposed for the history of life on Earth.
A thousand years are as a day in the sight of the Lord is simply telling us that God's view of time is different from ours.

Some things can be taken literally, while other things cannot. When we read of Jesus knocking on our hearts door we should not think we literally have a door in our heart.

So, please remember God is eternal and we are not, and that is why our view of time is different from the Word of God.

Now take my word for it, when the Bible says "in the beginning" it does not mean ten thousand years ago, it means more like ten thousand billion years ago.

Remember God is eternal, without beginning or end, so the word 'timeless' is appropriate.
.
 
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eleos1954

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Evening and morning mark the end of one era and the beginning of the next era, and would you believe it, science has only recently known this. The waters first and then the land and then new life, etc. exactly in the same order as the Bible describes. This to my mind proves the divine inspiration of the Bible. Day four when it all went dark is when the dinosaur's died. Scientists say that is when a meteorite hit the earth and threw up clouds of dust blotting out the sun. Science is proving the truth of the Bible, so all I am asking is not to make a shipwreck of the divine word of God, by the misuse of the word yome. Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us and it is taking more than six earth days. Be patient, look after yourself, may God bless you and remember it takes three hundred million years for coal to form and millions of years for water to gouge out the Grand Canyon from the rock.

well ... believe man or believe what is written in God's word.

Nothing died until there was sin, sin did not enter our world until Adam and Eve (death was not part of Gods creation) ... so impossible for dinosaur's or anything for that matter dying before the completion of His creations (ie day 4 as you claim - dinosaurs).

There is no way of getting away from this biblical fact ...

evening and the morning ... does NOT mean eras ... it means what it says ... a earth day

Genesis 1 first makes the overall summary statement ....

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth .... (ie creator of everything)

It then goes on to describe (gives more details) what He did on each day of creation and clearly states ... evening and morning (being one day).

evening and morning makes it very clear and distinct it was NOT eras.

Regarding the Grand Canyon ... there are various "view points" contrary to the "typical" millions and billion erosion years theory .... same is with dating methods ... not being consistent. People should search out and consider these other view points as well. Here are just a couple .... there are many ...

No Slow and Gradual Erosion

THE END of LONG AGE RADIOMETRIC DATING - QCCSA.org

Personally ... I'm sticking with God and not man ... others may choose otherwise but don't dismiss or ignore other information/data that is out there. Each will believe what they want ;o).

Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us and it is taking more than six earth days.

His Word clearly states no one knows the exact timeframe of His return.

God Bless.
 
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1an

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well ... believe man or believe what is written in God's word.

Nothing died until there was sin, sin did not enter our world until Adam and Eve (death was not part of Gods creation) ... so impossible for dinosaur's or anything for that matter dying before the completion of His creations (ie day 4 as you claim - dinosaurs).

There is no way of getting away from this biblical fact ...

evening and the morning ... does NOT mean eras ... it means what it says ... a earth day

Genesis 1 first makes the overall summary statement ....

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth .... (ie creator of everything)

It then goes on to describe (gives more details) what He did on each day of creation and clearly states ... evening and morning (being one day).

evening and morning makes it very clear and distinct it was NOT eras.

Regarding the Grand Canyon ... there are various "view points" contrary to the "typical" millions and billion erosion years theory .... same is with dating methods ... not being consistent. People should search out and consider these other view points as well. Here are just a couple .... there are many ...

No Slow and Gradual Erosion

THE END of LONG AGE RADIOMETRIC DATING - QCCSA.org

Personally ... I'm sticking with God and not man ... others may choose otherwise but don't dismiss or ignore other information/data that is out there. Each will believe what they want ;o).



His Word clearly states no one knows the exact timeframe of His return.

God Bless.
We are still in day seven and it is an exceedingly long day, so long in fact that when we go to glory it will be for eternity.

This is in keeping with the eternal God, who is without beginning or end, so when we read, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," ask yourself, "when did the beginning of eternity start?" When you have worked that out, you will know how old the heavens and earth are.
.
 
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eleos1954

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We are still in day seven and it is an exceedingly long day, so long in fact that when we go to glory it will be for eternity.

This is in keeping with the eternal God, who is without beginning or end, so when we read, "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," ask yourself, "when did the begging of eternity start?"
.

His Word says He has always been .... God Himself does not have a beginning ...
that's what the word eternal means .... without beginning or end.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth .... the beginning is in regard to the beginning of what He created as stated in Genesis ... that is the info we are given.

No we are not in day seven ...

God’s present rest does not logically imply a long seventh day.

Hebrews 4:3–4 says:

For we who have believed do enter into the rest, as He said, “I have sworn in My wrath that they should not enter into My rest;” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.For He spoke in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested the seventh day from all His works.”

Hebrews 4:1–11 teaches that the seventh day of Creation Week was a parallel to the spiritual rest found through Christ alone. Only those who have believed in Christ enter this rest. If the Bible was speaking of an actual continuation of the seventh day of rest, then all would already be in this rest.
 
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1an

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His Word says He has always been .... God Himself does not have a beginning ...
that's what the word eternal means .... without beginning or end.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth .... the beginning is in regard to the beginning of what He created as stated in Genesis ... that is the info we are given.

No we are not in day seven ...

God’s present rest does not logically imply a long seventh day.

Hebrews 4:3–4 says:

For we who have believed do enter into the rest, as He said, “I have sworn in My wrath that they should not enter into My rest;” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.For He spoke in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested the seventh day from all His works.”

Hebrews 4:1–11 teaches that the seventh day of Creation Week was a parallel to the spiritual rest found through Christ alone. Only those who have believed in Christ enter this rest. If the Bible was speaking of an actual continuation of the seventh day of rest, then all would already be in this rest.
Thanks for the insight into the mind of a young earther. If you are one of those who believes the earth is ten thousand years old and God created a ten thousand year old earth in the beginning, then your god is ten thousand years old! Give it a rest will you.
.
 
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nolidad

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I have a question for you -

If what Genesis is describing is -
1. God made the entire universe as well as angels -- Gen 1:1... at some point in time.
2. Earth existed in a "formless and void" stated before Gen 1:3 - "day 1"
3. Gen 1:3-2:4 describes the actual 7 day sequence .. each day begins with "Then the Lord said"
4. This accounts for our Sun, our moon and how the Earth got life on it - at all levels.

What if anything does that miss in your POV?

Why would we need to pull angels and galaxies into our Earth's 7 day creation week - and suppose that God either created angels in our own planet's 7 day creation week ... or not at all?


Good question!

Here is the answer I see in Scripture.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

The stars were created to mark the days and seasons etc. on the fourth day.

Genesis 2
King James Version

2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Verse 1 "heavens" plural. and all the host of them this includes all living things as described in 1. there is no warrant in Scripture that suggests that the angels were a pre-creation creation. They do this to account for the fall of Satan and a destruction of the earth and Genesis is actually a re-creation.

Because we are so accustomed to read Genesis 3 as coming soon after Genesis 2, we forget that we have no clue as to the time span that occurred from the creation of man to the fall in the garden nor how mans age was began. Adam and Eve could have walked with god for centuries before Satan fell. We just don't know.
 
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nolidad

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I understand that creation is a part of the faith, and I am not against preaching the correct view of creation. It just is not my main focus of my ministry like AIG (Answers in Genesis). Jesus is the main focus of my ministry. Yes, I am aware they preach salvation via Jesus Christ. But that is not the main focus of their ministry. They preach Young Earth Creationism as their main message. It's why they are called Answers in Genesis. So while I have found their website and resources helpful when I first started to truly study God's Word, I have grown beyond the basics of focusing on YEC (like when I first began to study God's Word). I remember watching the Creation Today show a lot. They sure talked about God and His creation, but they did not always talk about Jesus. Therein lies the problem.


Well remember that they are called to defend a portion of the faith and they are doing so faithfully!

someone who is focused on evangelism will probably not be a strong teacher of doctrine! God spread teh gifts out so that He can hone us in the specific gift ministries so we can effectively serve the Body in teh ministries He calls us all to.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
I have a question for you -

If what Genesis is describing is -
1. God made the entire universe as well as angels -- Gen 1:1... at some point in time.
2. Earth existed in a "formless and void" stated before Gen 1:3 - "day 1"
3. Gen 1:3-2:4 describes the actual 7 day sequence .. each day begins with "Then the Lord said"
4. This accounts for our Sun, our moon and how the Earth got life on it - at all levels.

What if anything does that miss in your POV?

Why would we need to pull angels and galaxies into our Earth's 7 day creation week - and suppose that God either created angels in our own planet's 7 day creation week ... or not at all?

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night:

The number "two" is conspicuous in that quote as being the number of lights made on day 4.

As creationists we would agree that God "made the stars also" but when?

In vs 16 "He made" is inserted... so in the text it is just "the stars also" as ruling the night.

They were not made on day 4. Only two lights made on day four in that chapter.

So what does God do with those two lights?

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Verse 1 "heavens" plural. and all the host of them this includes all living things as described in 1.

Gen 1 the birds fly in the "midst of the heavens"

=====================

In any case I understand that we may differ on that point.
 
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A thousand years are as a day in the sight of the Lord is simply telling us that God's view of time is different from ours.

2 Peter 3 says "a day is as a thousand years AND a thousand years is as a day" .. for God which means no time to short for God to accomplish work and no time to long for God to wait.

But it cannot be used as a measure/ruler because it says it both ways.

However this does not inhibit God from giving very precise measurements of time - for example in evening-and-morning counts

No text says "an evening-and-a-morning means 1000 years of evening and 1000 years of morning" or something of that sort. In the Bible "evening-and-morning mean one 24 day.
 
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Creation in scripture is two views, a 7 day version, a garden version.

1. Legal code in Ex 20:11 says the 7 day week in Genesis 1:3-2:4 is a literal week as in Sinai.

2. The Genesis two expansion on the Genesis 1 details works if one does not suppose that the writer (and the reader) don't know about chapter 1 when reading chapter 2.

3. But if you did separate chapter 2 from chapter 1 then:
  • In chapter 2 there is no oxygen/atmosphere, no sun and moon, no ocean, no fish
  • In chapter 1 - Adam and Eve have no names and there is no garden of Eden or tree of life or tree of knowledge of evil

4. But if you leave them in and recognize that the author had no chapter divisions: Then
All the details of Gen 2 simply add in at the appropriate place in chapter 1. Chapter 1 is a time-boxed chronological sequence. Chapter 2 is not.
 
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klutedavid

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The description of the universe we see through telescopes is so vast we hardly can comprehend it.
100 neptune years is 16,500 earth years.

Our solar system is vast, and very unusual. We know it is unique, and have not found another like it.
It is hard to describe the size of the biggest stars you can see in our galaxy, and there are billions of galaxies, moving over billions of years. Using the simple speed of light we can calculate the galaxy is 100,000 light years across. So for light to travel from one side to the other will take 100,000 years and it has to be old than this.

The nuclear fusion taking place in the sun, is unexpected, and our recreation of it in a torus, as a power source helps us to understand some of the mechanisms going on.

A 6,000 year creation does not fit, unless you want to create a picture universe that appeared just to make us think it is real.

The creation story is very earth centric, day and night, which is a feature of an orbiting planet around a star. Why have a stepped creation with days and nights, when this is merely a spinning earth feature. I would suggest because this is about the creation of earth within a bigger setting, telling us about origins and purpose, and failure in our relationship with the creator. When did anyone hear a talking snake? But the stories put forward profound emotional and relationship messages, which speak now, in context.

However creation came about, only an earth centric view would speak to us, so we can understand.
For me a more profound cultural issue, is the belief all men are born equal. Clearly we are not, some have serious disabilities and others are fantastically gifted. Equally some are very social and integrated while others are really dangerous. On this backdrop we have a moral framework of measurement and control, which God delivered to enable us to prosper. It is this tension that creationists and fatalists have a problem with, ie. if God knowingly creates us with our impulses where is guilt and innocence?

It is why the creation story is not just a story but also a philosophy of origins and authority, which lawless people desire to undermine and let hedonism rule. Many nihilists think philosophy is the origins of morality rather than biology and emotional bonding. Once you realise we need to love and to be part of an integrated community, you begin to see how Jesus breaths life to all.

I personally hold to the creation of earth as a separate event to the universe in which we live, like a seed planted in a garden. Nothing is necessarily as it appears, because like all puzzles the key is to what works as created by the puzzle maker. This maker has created every excuse we need to reject Him if we want, but also to find love and life and live it to the full.

God bless you
Genesis is littered with allegory. The book of Revelation is allegory.
Exodus is allegory also. The Bible is pointing at something else that the pure literal reading of the text cannot contain.
 
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BobRyan

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Genesis is littered with allegory.

or not.

Exodus 20:11 is legal code not allegory and it points to Gen 2:1-4 as a literal 7 day week.

Gen 1 -11 absolutely not allegory - but rather written as historic account



Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:

‘Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that:

(a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience

(b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story

(c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.

Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.’

================================= end quote
 
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throughfiierytrial

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While I am a creationist, I don't make that the focus of my ministry like Answers in Genesis. I think a person should focus their ministry on Jesus, and then secondary sub information like a Young Earth Creationism should be one of the later things to discuss. Preaching the truth of Young Earth Creationism will not save anyone. But preaching Jesus Christ will save a person.

I agree, but it is a serious matter or subject to consider if you know your acquaintance to be an evolutionist.
Repentance and belief in Jesus/God are the starting point...some of the conversion accounts found in Acts show a turning from the sinner's former way of thinking and acting to accepting the Truth/Jesus and His Word.
If I were to testify to someone perhaps it would be due to a conversation revealing they leaned evolutionist in their thinking. In such cases there is usually a denial of the Creator. That poses an obstacle to faith in God and would need to be carefully and patiently explained away and shown it is in contradiction to the Scriptures.
I love these passages along with the Genesis account for Scripture references:

For the word of the Lord is right and true;
he is faithful in all he does.
5 The Lord loves righteousness and justice;
the earth is full of his unfailing love.

6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathers the waters of the sea into jars;
he puts the deep into storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord;
let all the people of the world revere him.
9 For he spoke, and it came to be;
he commanded, and it stood firm.
(Psalm 33:4-9; NIV 2011)

and...

Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. (Hebrews 11:1-3; NIV 2011)

So the matter of time to present these truths would depend on the situation and how the topic came up and was broached.

 
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