CARNAL UNDERSTANDING VS. SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING

FaithWillDo · Jan 16, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, Proverbs 30:5, and Luke 4:4 refute your false line of thinking that says that the Word of God cannot also be Scripture. They both say... EVERY Word of God. So unless you believe in multiple versions of Jesus, then this is referring to the communicated Word of God (i.e. in the form of words from God). What is the EVERY word of God referring to in these verses? Is it not talking about Scripture and or the spoken words of God? Is it not the communicated Word of God?

Dear Bible Highlighter,
Those two verses you quoted are saying that Jesus Christ speaks words. I am not arguing that He doesn't. But those words come out from the "Word of God". The words themselves are not the Word of God. Only Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Can't you see the difference?

When you say that scripture is the Word of God, it is not. Like I've said over and over again, scripture is a record of what the Word of God (Jesus) said and did as recorded by the prophets/saints.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Jesus Christ is the Word of God and is "the righteousness of God" who was manifested. He was "witnessed by the law and the prophets". How was this witnessing of Him displayed to us?

This is how:

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

The prophets recorded their witness of Him and that witness became scripture. Scripture is a witness of the Word of God who is Jesus Christ.
Joe

FaithWillDo · Jan 16, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
So if you are correct, then the words, “Word of God” mentioned in Proverbs 30:5, and Luke 4:4 is in reference to Jesus. If this is the case, then you must believe there is more than one Jesus because they both say “EVERY Word of God.”

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that if you click on the link for Luke 4:4 it takes you to the ASV translation here on the forums. However, the ASV translation neuters this verse like a cat and removes the part that says, “...but by every word of God.”

Dear Bible Highlighter,
It is only meaning that we live by every word that Jesus (the Word of God) speaks. The Word of God is not the same thing as "words that come out from the mouth of God".

The words that God speaks are recorded by the prophets and act as a witness of Him (the Word of God).
Joe

Bible Highlighter · Jan 16, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Bible Highlighter,
Those two verses you quoted are saying that Jesus Christ speaks words. I am not arguing that He doesn't. But those words come out from the "Word of God". The words themselves are not the Word of God. Only Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Can't you see the difference?

When you say that scripture is the Word of God, it is not. Like I've said over and over again, scripture is a record of what the Word of God (Jesus) said and did as recorded by the prophets/saints.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Jesus Christ is the Word of God and is "the righteousness of God" who was manifested. He was "witnessed by the law and the prophets". How was this witnessing of Him displayed to us?

This is how:

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

The prophets recorded their witness of Him and that witness became scripture. Scripture is a witness of the Word of God who is Jesus Christ.
Joe

The words of Jesus are the communicated Word of God. Just as Scripture is the communicated Word of God. In fact, Jesus' words have been immortalized in Scripture. Scripture includes the very words of Jesus, and if we did not have Scripture or the Bible, we would not know anything about what Jesus said. 2 Timothy 3:16 says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. This means that the words in Scripture are the very words of God (i.e. the Word of God). So depending on the context, the words, “Word of God” can either refer to Jesus, or it can refer to the communicated Word of God (of which you yourself have admitted to in a way because you said that Proverbs 30:5, and Luke 4:4 is in reference to the words of Jesus). Words are a form of communication whether they are spoken or written.

Where do you think Scripture comes from?
Does Scripture ultimately come from God?

If so, then Jesus said He is one with the Father.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 16, 2021

@FaithWillDo

While I believe Jesus made pre-incarnate appearances in the OT, do you honestly believe the writer of Proverbs 30:5 is referring to the words of Jesus? I don't think too many OT saints were aware of Jesus. So to say that the writer of Proverbs 30:5 was referring to the words of Jesus would be highly unlikely. The writer most undoubtly had the Torah (i.e. Scripture) in mind, and he knew the value of God's Word (i.e. Scripture).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 16, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Bible Highlighter,
It is only meaning that we live by every word that Jesus (the Word of God) speaks. The Word of God is not the same thing as "words that come out from the mouth of God".

The words that God speaks are recorded by the prophets and act as a witness of Him (the Word of God).
Joe

Luke 4:4 is saying the same thing as Matthew 4:4.

Luke 4:4 says,
“And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.”

Matthew 4:4 says,
“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”

Bible Highlighter · Jan 16, 2021

The words that proceed out of the mouth of God has been recorded in Scripture. Plus, are we to say that inspired Scripture of God is entirely different than the very spoken words of God? If the words of Scripture are inspired by God according to 2 Timothy 3:16, then they are the words of God. Scripture is not muddied by the thoughts of men but Scripture is the expression of the mind of God.

For how do you get faith if it is not by Scripture?
How do you learn of Jesus if it is not by Scripture?

FaithWillDo · Jan 16, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
The words of Jesus are the communicated Word of God. Just as Scripture is the communicated Word of God. In fact, Jesus' words have been immortalized in Scripture. Scripture includes the very words of Jesus, and if we did not have Scripture or the Bible, we would not know anything about what Jesus said. 2 Timothy 3:16 says all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. This means that the words in Scripture are the very words of God (i.e. the Word of God). So depending on the context, the words, “Word of God” can either refer to Jesus, or it can refer to the communicated Word of God (of which you yourself have admitted to in a way because you said that Proverbs 30:5, and Luke 4:4 is in reference to the words of Jesus). Words are a form of communication whether they are spoken or written.

Where do you think Scripture comes from?
Does Scripture ultimately come from God?

If so, then Jesus said He is one with the Father.

Dear Bible Highlighter,
Yes, of course, Jesus is "one" with the Father and when are saved, we too will be "one" with the Father. That is our salvation - to become children of God fully made in His image.

In my first post, I said that Jesus is the Word of God so that means that everything that Jesus SAID and DID communicates a message to us. Scripture is a record/witness of those words or acts. Scripture itself is not the Word of God, it is a record/witness of them. That is the correct understanding that scripture teaches.

My point of making that statement in my first post is to let everyone know that the acts of Christ recorded in scripture are spiritual messages to us. They are actual events but contain spiritual messages, just like the story of the woman taken in adultery does. Most think that story is about forgiveness but it is not. It is teaching the Early and Latter Rain and what happens to us "legally" from each event. Upon the Early Rain (first time Christ writes in the earth), we are not saved but remain under Law. The Pharisees do not drop their stones (represents the Law). Those who remain under Law AND are also NOT chosen to receive the Latter Rain are the ones who Christ says "I never knew you, depart from me ye who work lawlessness". This is also "typed" for us when the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. They were "Called Out" of Egypt (type of the Early Rain) and came under Law of Moses. But because most of the Israelites were not "chosen" to receive the Latter Rain, all but Joshua and Caleb (types of the Elect) died in the wilderness. The Law condemned them. Only Joshua and Caleb who are "types" of the Elect live through the wilderness time and cross over the Jordan River. Crossing the Jordan is a "type" of the Latter Rain that we must experience for salvation. When Christ writes in the earth a second time, it represents the Latter Rain and this is when the Pharisees drop their stones. At this time, we are "born again" and the Law cannot accuse us any longer. We then start defeating the "giants in the land" which is a "type" of us defeating the stronghold of our carnal nature. Once our giants are defeated, we can produce the spiritual fruits Christ requires of His children.

Unless a person understands that Christ is the Word of God and that everything He said and DID is a message to us, then one is going to miss what His actions teach us.

And that is why it is important to understand that Christ is the Word of God. Scripture is a witness of Him. And when salvation comes with the Latter Rain, Christ will write the Spirit of the Law in our hearts and we too will be a witness of Him.

Our discussion on the "words" of Christ and the "Word of God" is a distraction from understanding the truth of what I stated above and there is no point in continuing that discussion. I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine.

Do you understand that since Christ is the Word of God, He not only teaches us from the things that He said but also from the things that He did as recorded by the saints in scripture?
Joe

Bible Highlighter · Jan 16, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Bible Highlighter,
Yes, of course, Jesus is "one" with the Father and when are saved, we too will be "one" with the Father. That is our salvation - to become children of God fully made in His image.

In my first post, I said that Jesus is the Word of God so that means that everything that Jesus SAID and DID communicates a message to us. Scripture is a record/witness of those words or acts. Scripture itself is not the Word of God, it is a record/witness of them. That is the correct understanding that scripture teaches.

My point of making that statement in my first post is to let everyone know that the acts of Christ recorded in scripture are spiritual messages to us. They are actual events but contain spiritual messages, just like the story of the woman taken in adultery does. Most think that story is about forgiveness but it is not. It is teaching the Early and Latter Rain and what happens to us "legally" from each event. Upon the Early Rain (first time Christ writes in the earth), we are not saved but remain under Law. The Pharisees do not drop their stones (represents the Law). Those who remain under Law AND are also NOT chosen to receive the Latter Rain are the ones who Christ says "I never knew you, depart from me ye who work lawlessness". This is also "typed" for us when the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. They were "Called Out" of Egypt (type of the Early Rain) and came under Law of Moses. But because most of the Israelites were not "chosen" to receive the Latter Rain, all but Joshua and Caleb (types of the Elect) died in the wilderness. The Law condemned them. Only Joshua and Caleb who are "types" of the Elect live through the wilderness time and cross over the Jordan River. Crossing the Jordan is a "type" of the Latter Rain that we must experience for salvation. When Christ writes in the earth a second time, it represents the Latter Rain and this is when the Pharisees drop their stones. At this time, we are "born again" and the Law cannot accuse us any longer. We then start defeating the "giants in the land" which is a "type" of us defeating the stronghold of our carnal nature. Once our giants are defeated, we can produce the spiritual fruits Christ requires of His children.

Unless a person understands that Christ is the Word of God and that everything He said and DID is a message to us, then one is going to miss what His actions teach us.

And that is why it is important to understand that Christ is the Word of God. Scripture is a witness of Him. And when salvation comes with the Latter Rain, Christ will write the Spirit of the Law in our hearts and we too will be a witness of Him.

Our discussion on the "words" of Christ and the "Word of God" is a distraction from understanding the truth of what I stated above and there is no point in continuing that discussion. I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine.

Do you understand that since Christ is the Word of God, He not only teaches us from the things that He said but also from the things that He did as recorded by the saints in scripture?
Joe

I believe Jesus Christ is called the Word of God. But the Communicated Word (Which would include Scripture) is also called the Word of God, too. More proof in the Bible?

“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.” (1 Peter 1:23-25).

We learn that the word of God is in reference to the Communicated Word in this above passage because Peter says this by which the gospel is preached unto you.

Lets keep reading.

“Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.” (1 Peter 2:1-3).

Again, we confirm that this is the Communicated Word because Peter continues to tell us about this word in that we are to desire the sincere milk of the word that we may grow thereby. If the word here is in reference to Jesus being milk it really does not make a whole lot of sense.

And 1 Peter 2:8 says,

“And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.” (1 Peter 2:8).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 16, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Bible Highlighter,
Yes, of course, Jesus is "one" with the Father and when are saved, we too will be "one" with the Father. That is our salvation - to become children of God fully made in His image.

In my first post, I said that Jesus is the Word of God so that means that everything that Jesus SAID and DID communicates a message to us. Scripture is a record/witness of those words or acts. Scripture itself is not the Word of God, it is a record/witness of them. That is the correct understanding that scripture teaches.

My point of making that statement in my first post is to let everyone know that the acts of Christ recorded in scripture are spiritual messages to us. They are actual events but contain spiritual messages, just like the story of the woman taken in adultery does. Most think that story is about forgiveness but it is not. It is teaching the Early and Latter Rain and what happens to us "legally" from each event. Upon the Early Rain (first time Christ writes in the earth), we are not saved but remain under Law. The Pharisees do not drop their stones (represents the Law). Those who remain under Law AND are also NOT chosen to receive the Latter Rain are the ones who Christ says "I never knew you, depart from me ye who work lawlessness". This is also "typed" for us when the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. They were "Called Out" of Egypt (type of the Early Rain) and came under Law of Moses. But because most of the Israelites were not "chosen" to receive the Latter Rain, all but Joshua and Caleb (types of the Elect) died in the wilderness. The Law condemned them. Only Joshua and Caleb who are "types" of the Elect live through the wilderness time and cross over the Jordan River. Crossing the Jordan is a "type" of the Latter Rain that we must experience for salvation. When Christ writes in the earth a second time, it represents the Latter Rain and this is when the Pharisees drop their stones. At this time, we are "born again" and the Law cannot accuse us any longer. We then start defeating the "giants in the land" which is a "type" of us defeating the stronghold of our carnal nature. Once our giants are defeated, we can produce the spiritual fruits Christ requires of His children.

Unless a person understands that Christ is the Word of God and that everything He said and DID is a message to us, then one is going to miss what His actions teach us.

And that is why it is important to understand that Christ is the Word of God. Scripture is a witness of Him. And when salvation comes with the Latter Rain, Christ will write the Spirit of the Law in our hearts and we too will be a witness of Him.

Our discussion on the "words" of Christ and the "Word of God" is a distraction from understanding the truth of what I stated above and there is no point in continuing that discussion. I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine.

Do you understand that since Christ is the Word of God, He not only teaches us from the things that He said but also from the things that He did as recorded by the saints in scripture?
Joe

Jesus refers to the commandment given by Moses in honoring your father and mother (Which is recorded in the Torah or Scripture), and he told the Jews that by their tradition they make the word of God of no effect. The word of God is referring to the Scriptures.

Jesus said unto the Jews,

“...Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free. And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.” (Mark 7:9-13).

So again, you are in error that the Scriptures cannot be referred to as the “word of God.”

Bible Highlighter · Jan 16, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Bible Highlighter,
Yes, of course, Jesus is "one" with the Father and when are saved, we too will be "one" with the Father. That is our salvation - to become children of God fully made in His image.

In my first post, I said that Jesus is the Word of God so that means that everything that Jesus SAID and DID communicates a message to us. Scripture is a record/witness of those words or acts. Scripture itself is not the Word of God, it is a record/witness of them. That is the correct understanding that scripture teaches.

My point of making that statement in my first post is to let everyone know that the acts of Christ recorded in scripture are spiritual messages to us. They are actual events but contain spiritual messages, just like the story of the woman taken in adultery does. Most think that story is about forgiveness but it is not. It is teaching the Early and Latter Rain and what happens to us "legally" from each event. Upon the Early Rain (first time Christ writes in the earth), we are not saved but remain under Law. The Pharisees do not drop their stones (represents the Law). Those who remain under Law AND are also NOT chosen to receive the Latter Rain are the ones who Christ says "I never knew you, depart from me ye who work lawlessness". This is also "typed" for us when the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. They were "Called Out" of Egypt (type of the Early Rain) and came under Law of Moses. But because most of the Israelites were not "chosen" to receive the Latter Rain, all but Joshua and Caleb (types of the Elect) died in the wilderness. The Law condemned them. Only Joshua and Caleb who are "types" of the Elect live through the wilderness time and cross over the Jordan River. Crossing the Jordan is a "type" of the Latter Rain that we must experience for salvation. When Christ writes in the earth a second time, it represents the Latter Rain and this is when the Pharisees drop their stones. At this time, we are "born again" and the Law cannot accuse us any longer. We then start defeating the "giants in the land" which is a "type" of us defeating the stronghold of our carnal nature. Once our giants are defeated, we can produce the spiritual fruits Christ requires of His children.

Unless a person understands that Christ is the Word of God and that everything He said and DID is a message to us, then one is going to miss what His actions teach us.

And that is why it is important to understand that Christ is the Word of God. Scripture is a witness of Him. And when salvation comes with the Latter Rain, Christ will write the Spirit of the Law in our hearts and we too will be a witness of Him.

Our discussion on the "words" of Christ and the "Word of God" is a distraction from understanding the truth of what I stated above and there is no point in continuing that discussion. I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine.

Do you understand that since Christ is the Word of God, He not only teaches us from the things that He said but also from the things that He did as recorded by the saints in scripture?
Joe

Jesus said:

“...My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.” (Luke 8:21).

Your translation:

My mother and my brethren are these which hear the Son of Man and do it.

That would be like saying, true Trump lovers are those who hear Mr. Trump and do it.
Do what? What is the “it” referring to? That would be improper grammar.

If things are as you say, Luke 8:21 should say:

My mother and my brethren are these which hear the Son of Man and do what He says.

But the verse says “it” and not “what He says.” which means it is referring to the communicated Word of God (i.e. either the spoken Word of God or the written Word of God - i.e. Scripture).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 16, 2021

@FaithWillDo

Acts of the Apostles 12:24 says,
“But the word of God grew and multiplied.”

So if the word of God is referring to Jesus and not the communicated Word, how exactly does Jesus grow and multiply? Does not this verse make more sense if it is referring to the communicated Word of God? See, this is the problem with your personal interpretation that says that the Word of God cannot refer to Scripture (in addition to the Living Word).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 16, 2021

@FaithWillDo

“And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.” (Acts of the Apostles 13:44).

You cannot say this verse is referring to hearing Jesus because this was after Christ's resurrection and ascension. Jesus is not mentioned in the context of Acts 13. So this must be in reference to the communicated Word of God (Which can be either the spoken Word of God or the written Word of God).

FaithWillDo · Jan 16, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus said:

“...My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.” (Luke 8:21).

Your translation:

My mother and my brethren are these which hear the Son of Man and do it.

That would be like saying, true Trump lovers are those who hear Mr. Trump and do it.
Do what? What is the “it” referring to? That would be improper grammar.

If things are as you say, Luke 8:21 should say:

My mother and my brethren are these which hear the Son of Man and do what He says.

But the verse says “it” and not “what He says.” which means it is referring to the communicated Word of God (i.e. either the spoken Word of God or the written Word of God - i.e. Scripture).

Dear Bible Highlighter,
Okay, I will make this adjustment:

Scripture is the physical word of God BUT afterward, Christ came and is the spiritual fulfillment of the physical word of God - so much so, the He is the Word of God. So it is not wrong to call scripture the word of God if you still see Christ in the flesh. But if you see Christ as spiritual, then He is the Word of God and the old things (physical word of God) have passed away.

Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

2Cor 5:16-17 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I no longer know the word of God as physical scripture. For me, it has passed away and I know it now as spiritual as fulfilled by Jesus Christ, the Word of God that shall never pass away.

I hope you can agree with what I just stated.
Joe

aiki · Jan 16, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
As you are probably aware, Christ is the Word of God. A witness of Him has been given to us through scripture. Scripture is not the Word of God – Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

Yes. But there is the word of God (small "w"), too, which does not refer necessarily to Christ but to the commands, truths and revelations of God through his prophets, apostles and the inspired writers of Scripture.

FaithWillDo said:
Both Old & New Testaments are a witness of Him as recorded by the prophets/saints.

Yes, both OT and NT witness to the Person of Christ and his atoning work, but they also discuss a whole myriad of matters not directly related to Christ.

FaithWillDo said:
For most, it is easy to understand that the parables are taught to us in words that are symbolic (spiritual words) and that those spiritual words carry a meaning that is different than what Webster's dictionary states.

Christ's parables use mundane, familiar analogies or metaphors to point to higher, greater spiritual truths. But, when Jesus speaks of a wayward sheep, or buried treasure, or sown seed, these things do not serve as appropriate symbols of something spiritual if sheep are not wayward, or treasure cannot and was not buried, or seed was not sown in the ground. There are, then, lower, mundane truths or realities in the objects of Christ's parables that are necessary to their use in pointing to higher truths and realities. If sheep are not wayward, what use have they in symbolizing the waywardness of you and I from God? If eagles did not mount up into the sky on spread wings, catching the currents of air to do so, what use have they in symbolizing the spiritual "lifting" of you and I by God? It isn't, then, that the symbols, the analogies, and metaphors, and similes we encounter in Scripture are utterly mysterious, carrying a meaning entirely divorced from what they are; they must be real and familiar in order to be of any proper use as analogies, metaphors and similes.

FaithWillDo said:
But since Christ is the Word of God, everything He taught us through scripture uses words that are spirit.

What does this actually mean?

FaithWillDo said:
Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword?

This isn't what the verse said, though. The verse doesn't say a person who lives by the sword must be killed by the sword. It is, instead, offering a generality that is pretty evident in the World, which is that if one lives a violent life, one will likely die violently. Think of Hitler, for example, or Saddam Hussein, or Julius Caesar, or Samson. The sword, which is typically used in violent action against another, represents violence generally - particularly violence of one person against another. It would be very strange, wouldn't it, for Christ, in speaking to this matter of violence, to analogize to something entirely disassociated from violence, like, say a wheel barrow, or a turnip. Christ's meaning isn't, then, utterly spiritualized beyond any association to the thing he is using symbolically - and particularly not in the instance in Matthew 26.

FaithWillDo said:
Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.

As I've explained, I don't think is true. See above.

FaithWillDo said:
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From these examples, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Mat 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.

??? This is gross proof-texting! My goodness! What a horrible twist you've given to God's word, here! Yikes. You have related four unrelated passages by removing them from their immediate and defining context and slapping them together simply because they all use the word "sword." In context, however, the sword of which Christ is speaking in Matthew 26 is nothing like the "sword of the Spirit" in Ephesians 6, or the word of God in Hebrews 4, or the two-edged sword going out of Christ's mouth in Revelation 1! There is actually nothing spiritual at all about the sword of violence of which Christ speaks in Matthew 26 right after Peter cut off the ear of the high priest's slave with a sword.

Be warned, brother: You will find yourself profoundly deceived and a terrible deceiver of others in venturing down this bizarre and dangerous path of outrageous proof-texting.

I won't address the rest of your post because it suffers from the same extremely bad handling of Scripture.

FaithWillDo · Jan 16, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
@FaithWillDo

“And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.” (Acts of the Apostles 13:44).

You cannot say this verse is referring to hearing Jesus because this was after Christ's resurrection and ascension. Jesus is not mentioned in the context of Acts 13. So this must be in reference to the communicated Word of God (Which can be either the spoken Word of God or the written Word of God).

Dear Bible Highlighter,
I re-wrote my opening statement of this thread to read:

As you are probably aware, Christ is the spiritual fulfillment of the physical word of God which was written on tablets of stone or scrolls of paper. Since Christ is the spiritual fulfillment of the word of God, He is the Word of God. As such, He not only teaches us through what He says but also by the things He did.

Joe

Bible Highlighter · Jan 16, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Bible Highlighter,
Okay, I will make this adjustment:

Scripture is the physical word of God BUT afterward, Christ came and is the spiritual fulfillment of the physical word of God - so much so, the He is the Word of God. So it is not wrong to call scripture the word of God if you still see Christ in the flesh. But if you see Christ as spiritual, then He is the Word of God and the old things (physical word of God) have passed away.

Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

2Cor 5:16-17 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I no longer know the word of God as physical scripture. For me, it has passed away and I know it now as spiritual as fulfilled by Jesus Christ, the Word of God that shall never pass away.

I hope you can agree with what I just stated.
Joe

You are over spiritualizing these verses. Matthew 24:35 is saying that the words of Lord Jesus Christ will not pass away. Meaning, they will forever exist from this time forward on into eternity. But Heaven and Earth will most certainly pass away.

I believe 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 is dealing with the apostles' misunderstanding on His mission in why Christ came. Men of the flesh want to glory in outward appearances, but the man of God learns to be the spiritual man in loving people with the new heart given to them by God (Which can only begin by accepting Christ's grace and sacrifice for their lives personally). Remember when Peter did not want Christ to go to the cross? It was because he was not thinking spiritually. The Scriptures and Jesus foretold of Christ's death and resurrection. The word “flesh” is in reference to regarding Christ by outward appearances. Jesus told others to judge not by outward appearances but to judge righteously. I believe that this is what Paul is referring to here in this passage. Paul is not saying that we are to ignore the reality of the physical world. That is a form of gnosticism. Paul is merely referring to not looking at things in how this world does by outward appearances that are shallow. This does not mean we disregard the physical writings of Scripture or the Bible. That is not what these verses you quoted are saying. In order for them to say what you want them to say: They would have to specifically state: Do not look at the Scriptures as if they physically exist in our universe, and or neither read the Scriptures in a literal way anymore.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 16, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Bible Highlighter,
I re-wrote my opening statement of this thread to read:

As you are probably aware, Christ is the spiritual fulfillment of the physical word of God which was written on tablets of stone or scrolls of paper. Since Christ is the spiritual fulfillment of the word of God, He is the Word of God. As such, He not only teaches us through what He says but also by the things He did.

Joe

But this does not help you. Acts of the Apostles 13:44 refers to the Word of God after Christ's ascension. The Word of God cannot be Jesus in this verse because the whole city came to hear the Word of God (i.e. the communicated Word). No reference is made about Jesus in Acts of the Apostles 13.

FaithWillDo · Jan 16, 2021

aiki said:
Yes. But there is the word of God (small "w"), too, which does not refer necessarily to Christ but to the commands, truths and revelations of God through his prophets, apostles and the inspired writers of Scripture.

Yes, both OT and NT witness to the Person of Christ and his atoning work, but they also discuss a whole myriad of matters not directly related to Christ.

Christ's parables use mundane, familiar analogies or metaphors to point to higher, greater spiritual truths. But, when Jesus speaks of a wayward sheep, or buried treasure, or sown seed, these things do not serve as appropriate symbols of something spiritual if sheep are not wayward, or treasure cannot and was not buried, or seed was not sown in the ground. There are, then, lower, mundane truths or realities in the objects of Christ's parables that are necessary to their use in pointing to higher truths and realities. If sheep are not wayward, what use have they in symbolizing the waywardness of you and I from God? If eagles did not mount up into the sky on spread wings, catching the currents of air to do so, what use have they in symbolizing the spiritual "lifting" of you and I by God? It isn't, then, that the symbols, the analogies, and metaphors, and similes we encounter in Scripture are utterly mysterious, carrying a meaning entirely divorced from what they are; they must be real and familiar in order to be of any proper use as analogies, metaphors and similes.

What does this actually mean?

This isn't what the verse said, though. The verse doesn't say a person who lives by the sword must be killed by the sword. It is, instead, offering a generality that is pretty evident in the World, which is that if one lives a violent life, one will likely die violently. Think of Hitler, for example, or Saddam Hussein, or Julius Caesar, or Samson. The sword, which is typically used in violent action against another, represents violence generally - particularly violence of one person against another. It would be very strange, wouldn't it, for Christ, in speaking to this matter of violence, to analogize to something entirely disassociated from violence, like, say a wheel barrow, or a turnip. Christ's meaning isn't, then, utterly spiritualized beyond any association to the thing he is using symbolically - and particularly not in the instance in Matthew 26.

As I've explained, I don't think is true. See above.

??? This is gross proof-texting! My goodness! What a horrible twist you've given to God's word, here! Yikes. You have related four unrelated passages by removing them from their immediate and defining context and slapping them together simply because they all use the word "sword." In context, however, the sword of which Christ is speaking in Matthew 26 is nothing like the "sword of the Spirit" in Ephesians 6, or the word of God in Hebrews 4, or the two-edged sword going out of Christ's mouth in Revelation 1! There is actually nothing spiritual at all about the sword of violence of which Christ speaks in Matthew 26 right after Peter cut off the ear of the high priest's slave with a sword.

Be warned, brother: You will find yourself profoundly deceived and a terrible deceiver of others in venturing down this bizarre and dangerous path of outrageous proof-texting.

I won't address the rest of your post because it suffers from the same extremely bad handling of Scripture.

Dear aiki,
Scripture is written in words that are spirit. If a believer does not have their spiritual blindness healed by Christ, then they are simply not going to be able to understand scripture. He wrote scripture in this manner to cause us to "fall backward and be broken".

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and ANOTHER TONGUE will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Christ's speaks to us in "another tongue" which uses "spirit" words. The spirit words have meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Paul says to learn the meaning of these spiritual words by comparing them with how they are used elsewhere in scripture (comparing spiritual with spiritual). I gave the example of the word "sword" and it is easy to see that it represents the Word of God who is Christ. When one applies that meaning to this verse...

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Christ's meaning becomes clear. Those who take up the sword (Word of God, Christ) must die by the sword (Word of God, Christ). This is what happens when we are saved. When we "take up" Christ, we likewise will die by Christ. Water baptism teaches a similar spiritual message. Our Old Man dies as we are submerged in water (Holy Spirit) and we rise from the water a New Man in Christ.

From your comments, I can see that you do not understand the spiritual language of Christ so I do not expect you to agree with me.
Joe

FaithWillDo · Jan 16, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
But this does not help you. Acts of the Apostles 13:44 refers to the Word of God after Christ's ascension. The Word of God cannot be Jesus in this verse because the whole city came to hear the Word of God (i.e. the communicated Word). No reference is made about Jesus in Acts of the Apostles 13.

Dear Bible Highlighter,
The people who came to "hear" the word of God were hearing it carnally with human ears. Unless a person as the Latter Rain of the Spirit, they cannot hear the Word of God spiritually (the spiritual happens within us). It will remain written on tablets of stone or scrolls of paper. That is why Christ frequently says "for those who have eyes that can see and ears that can hear". When one has ears that can hear the spiritual, we see Christ as the spiritual fulfillment of the word of God and He communicates to us from "within" us. But a person must be "born again" to see and hear Christ as the spiritual Word of God. Because of such, people who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit still see and hear the word of God as being the physical word of God written on paper.
Joe

Bible Highlighter · Jan 16, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Bible Highlighter,
The people who came to "hear" the word of God were hearing it carnally with human ears. Unless a person as the Latter Rain of the Spirit, they cannot hear the Word of God spiritually (the spiritual happens within us). It will remain written on tablets of stone or scrolls of paper. That is why Christ frequently says "for those who have eyes that can see and ears that can hear". When one has ears that can hear the spiritual, we see Christ as the spiritual fulfillment of the word of God and He communicates to us from "within" us. But a person must be "born again" to see and hear Christ as the spiritual Word of God. Because of such, people who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit still see and hear the word of God as being the physical word of God written on paper.
Joe

You said before that the Word of God is not Scripture. What “Word of God” were they hearing in Acts of the Apostles 13:44?

Here are a few select options that you can choose from.

(a) Jesus.
(b) The Communicated Word of God (Spoken Word of God).
(c) The Communicated Word of God (Written Word of God).
(d) The Communicated Word of God (Not specifically mentioned but it could be either the written Word or the Spoken Word).
(e) Other (Please explain).

Side Note:

It sounds like you are referring to a communicated Word of God (Which proves that I was correct that the Word of God is a form of communication).

CARNAL UNDERSTANDING VS. SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING

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