CARNAL UNDERSTANDING VS. SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING

FaithWillDo

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It's not the paper...it is the words upon it, my friend.
Both Jesus Christ and the words on the page are one and the same.

For example, Christ is the spiritual and physical representation of the Godhead:

" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
( John 1:1-3 ).

" And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." ( John 1:14 ).


The words of God are what we as believers live by ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ):

" Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
" ( James 1:18 ).
" Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." ( John 15:3 )


Scripture is the word of God, inspired ( 2 Timothy 3:15-16 ) and written down by His apostles and prophets for His sheep to take comfort in ( Romans 15:4 ).
Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God made flesh, was the one who gave it to them.

The Lord Jesus and His every word are synonymous, and they both came forth from the Father.
Where you get the impression that they are not the same, I do not know.

To put it in a more summarized fashion,
The words on the page are Jesus Christ speaking to His sheep, the ones given to Him by His Father ( John 17:2 ).

We live by Jesus Christ who saves us. The words written on paper cannot save you. If they could, then the Law could save us. But the words on paper are a witness of the Word of God who was made flesh and dwelt among us. That is why everything that Christ said and did is a message to us. Until the Word of God through the Holy Spirit is written in your heart, you cannot be saved. The Word of God is spiritual and not physical. Nothing physical can save you. It really is not more complicated than that.
Joe
 
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FaithWillDo

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This is patently false. The Word of God is not only Jesus, but is also the communicated Word of God (Which is either the spoken Word of God or the written Word of God, i.e. Scripture). How so? Well, we see the Bible make a reference to EVERY WORD OF GOD.

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.” (Proverbs 30:5).

“And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.” (Luke 4:4).​

So unless you believe there are multiple versions of Jesus, then we must conclude that “EVERY word of God” (mentioned in these above two verses) is in reference to God's Holy Word (i.e. the spoken Word of God or the written Word of God, i.e. Scripture).

"Every word" is referring to things that are not "bread" that comes from God. It is not referring to other things that are also the Word of God. Only Christ is the Word of God. You are thinking carnally and not spiritually.
Joe
 
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We live by Jesus Christ who saves us. The words written on paper cannot save you. If they could, then the Law could save us. But the words on paper are a witness of the Word of God who was made flesh and dwelt among us. That is why everything that Christ said and did is a message to us. Until the Word of God through the Holy Spirit is written in your heart, you cannot be saved. The Word of God is spiritual and not physical. Nothing physical can save you. It really is not more complicated than that.
Joe

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). The Word of God is Scripture. If a person is not hearing the Bible, then they are not hearing God and thus they have no faith, or life, or anything. Jesus said, “the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” (John 6:63). The words of Jesus are immortalized into Scripture.

The apostle Paul says,
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

The apostle Peter says,
“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.” (1 Peter 1:23-25).

It is by the hearing of the gospel via by Scripture by which we can receive such words that allows God to move in our life and change our hearts. Without Scripture, or the Bible, you got nothin'. There is no faith without the Bible. There is no eternal life without the Bible. There is no gospel that we can know about today without the Bible. There is knowledge of our Savior without the Bible.
 
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"Every word" is referring to things that are not "bread" that comes from God. It is not referring to other things that are also the Word of God. Only Christ is the Word of God. You are thinking carnally and not spiritually.
Joe

I did not say it was referring to physical bread we eat. Where did I mention bread? I didn't. These verses are referring to the communicated Word of God. For it refers to EVERY word of God. Meaning, there are many words of God in Scripture. The Bible is full of many words that are inspired by God. Every word of God is inspired by God in the Bible and they can give life if we heed and or obey those words. For when we obey God's communicated Word, then God is able to move in our life and change us and live inside of us and give us a new heart with new desires. But this cannot happen if we do not have His Holy Word (i.e. the Bible). We know about GOD and His plan of salvation from the Bible.
 
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Navair2

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One of the big points in Calvinism is Unconditional Election. This to me is an attack upon the good character of our God. I don't believe God forces some to be saved, and forces others to be unsaved. In other words, God does not create a bunch of life for the specific purpose to be tortured alive for all eternity based on His sovereign good will (against their free will choice).
I believe the Scripture teaches that the Lord overcomes a person and then changes their hearts without our permission, or I see that no one would be saved.
If that belief of the Scriptures makes me a "Calvinist", then so be it.;)

As for "forcing others to be unsaved", it appears to me that you are thinking in terms of man being able to do something to gain that salvation...which we are not. Salvation and the gifts of God like eternal life, which is to know Him and His Son ( John 17:3 ), are described in Scripture as gifts, not rewards for good behaviour.

Please allow me to explain:

You see, in order for God to "force man to be unsaved", He would have to prevent those who wanted to be saved from His wrath, from not being able to do so. This He does as clearly explained in Luke 13:24, where the Lord Jesus tells us that " many shall seek to enter in and shall not be able".

But the people who are trying to get out of going to Hell by their own efforts are not approaching Him by faith, and they don't really love him anyway, neither are they approaching Him out of love for what He has done through Christ.


Then there's the other side:

God does not force anyone who genuinely wants to have an eternal, heart-to-heart relationship with Him and His Son, from entering in. Those whose sin grieves them, who hunger and thirst after righteousness and who hate this world and its ways, are welcome with Him.

The problem is, is that it takes a miracle of God for that to happen in a person.
It's called the new birth.

Because we are dead in our sins and trespasses and our condition is such that we willfully choose to go against God and to hate Him everyday ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ), that cycle needs to be broken...
and break it He does, for each and everyone of the millions that are his ( Revelation 7:9 ).

Therefore, if God granting a person the new birth so that they will then desire a relationship with Him, and genuinely repent from their sins, is "forcing a person to be saved", then I believe that wholeheartedly.:)
 
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FaithWillDo

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My friend, to answer your OP, there is only one outpouring of the Spirit necessary to understand the Scriptures ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 )...
Because the natural man does not "receive", or welcome the things of the Spirit of God, and they are foolishness to him...Neither can he know them, for they are spiritually ( by the Spirit ) discerned ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ), it is necessary for the Lord to give us, as His people, the Spirit...The one when a person was sealed unto the day of redemption ( Ephesians 4:30 ), when they first believed the Gospel ( Ephesians 1:13 ).



So while I agree with you that it takes the power and presence of the Holy Spirit to do such, there is no early and latter rain of the Spirit ( two outpourings ) that are needed for this. There is only one measure of the Spirit given to His people, their Comforter....of which they can be full of the Spirit, or quench Him.

The early and latter rain that you speak of in the Bible, is the Lord waiting for the precious fruit of the earth...His people ( James 5:7 ).

In the pattern given in Deuteronomy 11:14, Jeremiah 5:24 and Joel 2:23 where the early ( Spring ) rains come for planting and to enable growth, and the latter ( Autumn ) rains come before harvest and to ensure a fuller fruit, the Lord feeds and waters His sheep so that they grow to their fullest, spiritually ( 1 Peter 2:2 ).

Not only is the word described as "milk" and "meat" ( 1 Corinthians 3:2 ), it is also water ( Ephesians 5:26 ) by which the Lord's ministers feed and water the sheep ( 1 Corinthians 3:5-8 ), while He gives the increase.

He gives both an early ( preaching of the Gospel ) and a latter ( preaching of doctrine by the word ) rain so that in the process, His children grow to maturity and bear fruit ( Galatians 5:22-23 )...
Some 30, some 60 and some 100-fold ( Matthew 13 ).


May God bless you richly in your studies.:)


Dear Navair2,

"Rain" (as well as other forms of it like "water", "fresh water", "spit") is a spiritual term and has it own meaning. It represents the Holy Spirit. That is why scripture says that Christ will "pour out" his Spirit in the last days and write His Law of the Spirit in our hearts. That is why we are baptized in "water" (the Holy Spirit). It is not literal or physical. It is spiritual and happens "within" us.

Here is what James said:
Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

James says a lot in these two verses and its meaning is hidden in spiritual language.

Christ is the Husbandman who is a farmer. The Precious Fruit of the Earth is the New Man in Christ who is to be harvested from the Earth. The Earth represents the carnal & sinful world. The farmer “hath long patience for it” because birthing many new Sons of God is a long process and is now just getting started with the harvest of the First-Fruits in this present age.

Christ even said:

Luke 12:49 I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

“Fire” is a spiritual term for the judgment of God. Without His judgment, no one would be saved. In the above verse, Christ longs to start that process of judgment upon mankind (The Elect first, then all others) but the time was not yet at hand. Since before the creation began, Christ has been waiting patiently for that day - the Day of the Lord. It is no wonder that “patience” is one of the fruits of the Spirit.

At the end of verse 7, James says that the growing season for Christ’s harvest of mankind starts with the Early Rain. It is at this point in time that a new believer will enter the Church. The Early Rain represents the receiving of the down-payment of the Holy Spirit. However, the Early Rain of the Spirit is not sufficient for us to grow to maturity and produce fruit. We also need the Latter Rain which occurs when Christ “appears again” and baptizes us with His Spirit. After the Baptism of the Spirit, we finally have the ability to see Christ and to know the Truth. The sanctification process can then start so that we can grow to maturity and produce fruit.

James’ main purpose for writing these two verses is to tell us to have “patience” because the creation of a Son of God takes time and does not happen until a person receives the Early and Latter rain of the Spirit.

Here are a couple more of the teachings on the TWO outpouring of the Holy Spirit:

THE BLIND MAN
Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?


In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response is recorded in scripture, however, Christ answers His own question in the very next 4 verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man.

In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes that the blind man remains carnally minded. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (eyes, understanding). After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Called and Chosen believer. We can now know that the blind man is one of Christ’s Elect, a First Fruit of the harvest of mankind.

John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

A “woman” in scripture represents God’s wife. All who are “in Adam” will be “called” to be God’s wife.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon faith. However, Adam was created spiritually weak, spiritually blind & carnal. Because of these flaws, Adam soon sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in faith and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through his own “works”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.

In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents Adam (all mankind). When Christ first writes in the earth it represents the time when He writes His law in our hearts. It is the time of the Early Rain when we are “called out” by Christ to be restored to the Father by faith. However, Satan quickly comes to us and deceives us because we remain spiritually blind. Because of his deception, we fall away from faith alone and mix in our own works. This is the sin that leads to death and we remain under the Law. Because this happens, the Pharisees do not drop the stones after Christ first writes in the earth. The Law is still accusing us.

Then in verse 8, Christ stoops down again and writes His Law upon our hearts a second time (the Latter Rain). It is at this point that Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we come out from Satan’s deception. We begin to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law can no longer accuse us. After this change from Law to faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The Law is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) and we are restored to God.

PAUL
Finally, without going into detail, Paul's conversion is stated to be the "pattern" whereby all will follow to be saved. Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road and three days later he received the Latter Rain of the Spirit in Damascus. While Paul was in between the two outpouring, He was blind and in bed. That represents our spiritual state after the Early Rain. The Blind Man & the Woman Taken in Adultery stories support this as well.
Joe
 
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"Every word" is referring to things that are not "bread" that comes from God. It is not referring to other things that are also the Word of God. Only Christ is the Word of God. You are thinking carnally and not spiritually.
Joe

So those of us who disagree with your definition of the Word of God are thinking carnally, but you are thinking spiritually? Really? I didn't realize that you are the embodiment of truth while the rest of us walk in darkness. How lost we are!

The Bible is the Word of God (in the normal English meaning). When John wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" he was using the Greek word "logos", meaning the principle of divine reason and creative order. It is a difficult concept to understand, but it is referring to reason and order, not the written Word.

Again, the "Word of God", in common English usage, refers to God-inspired writings that have been collected for us into a single volume called "The Bible". Mixing the two meanings is confusing at best, sophistry at worst.
 
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Navair2

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@Bible Highlighter

Basically, there's two sides of the same "coin" ...and two "coins", or hearts:

1) For those He has given a new heart to and that genuinely seek Him from that heart, they later come to know that they were created in Christ Jesus ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
2) For those He has not given a new heart to, who hate Him and never do come to value righteousness and hate their own sin from a genuine attitude of repentance ( not to keep out of Hell, but because they really hate disobeying the Lord out of a genuine love for Him and His ways ), they get exactly what they had coming...eternal wrath.

Aren't you glad you've believed on Christ?

The Bible says that those who have believed on Him, from the heart, have hope...unless you've believed in vain, my friend, which I truly hope that you have not.

The Lord Jesus tells us, "Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
".

Labor against and are heavy laden with what?
Sin, my friend.

Has he ever confronted you with your sin and need of a Saviour?
Then know that it was because He chose you to salvation and caused you to approach Him in faith and repentance ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Psalms 65:4 ).

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God..."
But the same is also true:
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear".


He that is of God hears God words...
He that is not "of God", does not ( John 8:47 ).

Have you heard His word?
Then you have a place prepared for you at his table.:)
 
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My friend, to answer your OP, there is only one outpouring of the Spirit necessary to understand the Scriptures ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 )...
Because the natural man does not "receive", or welcome the things of the Spirit of God, and they are foolishness to him...Neither can he know them, for they are spiritually ( by the Spirit ) discerned ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ), it is necessary for the Lord to give us, as His people, the Spirit...The one when a person was sealed unto the day of redemption ( Ephesians 4:30 ), when they first believed the Gospel ( Ephesians 1:13 ).



So while I agree with you that it takes the power and presence of the Holy Spirit to do such, there is no early and latter rain of the Spirit ( two outpourings ) that are needed for this. There is only one measure of the Spirit given to His people, their Comforter....of which they can be full of the Spirit, or quench Him.

The early and latter rain that you speak of in the Bible, is the Lord waiting for the precious fruit of the earth...His people ( James 5:7 ).

In the pattern given in Deuteronomy 11:14, Jeremiah 5:24 and Joel 2:23 where the early ( Spring ) rains come for planting and to enable growth, and the latter ( Autumn ) rains come before harvest and to ensure a fuller fruit, the Lord feeds and waters His sheep so that they grow to their fullest, spiritually ( 1 Peter 2:2 ).

Not only is the word described as "milk" and "meat" ( 1 Corinthians 3:2 ), it is also water ( Ephesians 5:26 ) by which the Lord's ministers feed and water the sheep ( 1 Corinthians 3:5-8 ), while He gives the increase.

He gives both an early ( preaching of the Gospel ) and a latter ( preaching of doctrine by the word ) rain so that in the process, His children grow to maturity and bear fruit ( Galatians 5:22-23 )...
Some 30, some 60 and some 100-fold ( Matthew 13 ).


May God bless you richly in your studies.:)

" Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains." James 5:7

The meaning of this couldn't be clearer. The farmer is patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains, the water that falls from the sky and waters his crops. While the meaning can be extended to symbolically mean what you say, it is clear what the Bible text actually means.
 
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Navair2

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That is why scripture says that Christ will "pour out" his Spirit in the last days and write His Law of the Spirit in our hearts. That is why we are baptized in "water" (the Holy Spirit). It is not literal or physical. It is spiritual and happens "within" us.
I agree.

As for "Pentecostalism", I reject the two outpourings of the Holy Spirit as you've described.
To me, it is a dividing of one event that happens in the life of a believer and it confuses the filling of the Spirit and the indwelling of Him in one of God's children by calling them two outpourings and not one, which then manifests itself later and from time to time.

In other words, one outpouring at belief, and multiple manifestations of the same indwelling / outpouring throughout a believer's life and by the work of God.

I wish you well, sir.
 
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FaithWillDo

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@FaithWillDo

Again, Jesus (the Living Word) was sent by the commandment (mouth) of the Father. Jesus said and did everything the Father told Him to do (John 12:49) (John 14:31).

What is interesting is that the Living Word accomplished that which the Father commanded Him to do and to prosper (accomplish) that thing He sent to do (i.e. Jesus suffered on the cross, and said, “It is finished” and died for man’s sins). Jesus was risen three days later, and ascended to the Father. God’s Word (the living Word) did not return void by whom the Father sent.

The communicated Word can also be sent out and not return void, as well. For many have believed and have stayed faithful to what God’s Word says.

In the creation: The Word made flesh (John 1:1, John 1:14) (i.e. Christ) created everything. In the beginning God spoke words to bring forth the creation in six days (Genesis 1:1-31).

So in the beginning was the Living Word, and the communicated Word.

In the end of this sinful world: Christ will return (Revelation 19:11-21) and a sharp sword will proceed from His mouth. This sword could be the “sword of the Spirit,” (Which is the Word of God) or it could be symbolic of such (Ephesians 6:17).

So in the end there will be the Living Word, and the communicated Word.

For at Christ’s return: His name is called The “Word of God.” (Revelation 19:13) (Living Word).

On His thigh, and vesture is a name written (words) “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Communicated Word).

Jesus was beaten to a pulp and crucified on a tree.

The Word we have today (the Bible) is a result of pulp made from a tree.

Jesus was the Word made flesh (covered in skin).

The Word we have today (the Bible) is popular to be available covered in skin (leather).


Dear Bible Highlighter,
I can't agree with you. Jesus is the Word of God and nothing else is. When Christ speaks, His words come out from the Word of God. When the prophets/saints recorded those words, they become scripture and act as a WITNESS of Him.

There is no sense in discussing it further.
Joe
 
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Bible Highlighter

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I do, or no one would be saved.
If that belief of the Scriptures makes me a "Calvinist", then so be it.;)

As for "forcing others to be unsaved", it appears to me that you are thinking in terms of man being able to do something to gain that salvation...which we are not. Salvation and the gifts of God like eternal life, which is to know Him and His Son ( John 17:3 ), are described in Scripture as gifts, not rewards for good behaviour.

Please allow me to explain:

You see, in order for God to "force man to be unsaved", He would have to prevent those who wanted to be saved from His wrath, from not being able to do so. This He does as clearly explained in Luke 13:24, where the Lord Jesus tells us that " many shall seek to enter in and shall not be able".

But God does not force anyone who genuinely wants to have an eternal, heart-to-heart relationship with Him and His Son, from entering in. Those whose sin grieves them, who hunger and thirst after righteousness and who hate this world and its ways, are welcome with Him.

The problem is, is that it takes a miracle of God for that to happen in a person.
It's called the new birth.

Because we are dead in our sins and trespasses and our condition is such that we willfully choose to go against God and to hate Him everyday ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ), that cycle needs to be broken...
and break it He does, for each and everyone of the millions that are his ( Revelation 7:9 ).

Basically, there's two sides of the same "coin" and two "coins"...

1) For those He has given a new heart to and that genuinely seek Him from that heart, they later come to know that they were created in Christ Jesus ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
2) For those who hate Him and never do come to value righteousness and hate their own sin from a genuine attitude of repentance ( not to keep out of Hell, but because they really hate disobeying the Lord out of a genuine love for Him and His ways ), they get exactly what they had coming...eternal wrath.

Aren't you glad you've believed on Christ?

The Bible says that those who have believed on Him, from the heart, have hope...unless you've believed in vain, my friend, which I truly hope that you have not.

The Lord Jesus tells us, "Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
".

Heavy laden with what?
Sin, my friend.

Has he ever confronted you with your sin and need of a Saviour?
Then know that it was because He chose you to salvation and caused you to approach Him in faith and repentance ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Psalms 65:4 ).

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God..."
But the same is also true:
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear".


He that is of God hears God words...
He that is not of God, does not ( John 8:47 ).

If GOD forces people to be saved, then this life would be pretty meaningless. Why are we even here? Do you actually believe God is a bully? The truth is that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

2 Thessalonians 2:10 is one of the biggest verses that refutes Calvinism.
It says:

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

What is the reason why those mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 are perishing? Does it say because God did not elect them to salvation? No. It says, “...in them that perish BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH.” THEY. It says THEY .... received not the love of the truth. That is why they are perishing. It's on them and not God as to the reason why they are perishing. Also, the verse says that they “MIGHT BE SAVED.” There is no such thing as “might be saved” in Calvinism. But yet, that is what my Bible says. I choose to believe my Bible and not Calvinism or those who say there is some kind of forced salvation going on. I mean, do you not understand that love is not forced? Does a man who forces his love upon woman equate with true love? Surely not. True love exists when both parties agree to love each of their own free will.

I mean, if Calvinism was true then Jonah 3 does not make a lick of sense, either. Jonah preached to the Ninevites that they would be overthrown in 40 days. But did that happen? No. Why? Well, the Ninevites cried out unto God (seeking forgiveness), and they forsaken their evil ways. When God had noticed that the Ninevites had forsaken their wickedness that is when God decided to no longer bring wrath or judgment upon them anymore. In other words, Wrath or judgment was averted not because God forced them to be saved but because the Ninevites had chosen to repent. Just read Jonah 3 and check it out for yourself.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Dear Bible Highlighter,
I can't agree with you. Jesus is the Word of God and nothing else is. When Christ speaks, His words come out from the Word of God. When the prophets/saints recorded those words, they become scripture and act as a WITNESS of Him.

There is no sense in discussing it further.
Joe

You say that when Christ speaks it comes out from the Word of God. However, Jesus Christ is the Word of God. They are one and the same. The Word was made flesh (See: John 1:1, and John 1:14).

Anyways, I have mentioned two verses to you previously in my other post (Proverbs 30:5, and Luke 4:4) that refutes your false line of thinking. For the Word of God can ALSO be Scripture, as well. But you refuse to truly address these two verses or explain them in a way that makes any logical sense.
 
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FaithWillDo

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" Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains." James 5:7

The meaning of this couldn't be clearer. The farmer is patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains, the water that falls from the sky and waters his crops. While the meaning can be extended to symbolically mean what you say, it is clear what the Bible text actually means.

Scripture says that the words Christ speaks are "spirit". When scripture is teachings us, it uses words that are spirit words and they carry a "meaning different than what man's wisdom teaches".
So those of us who disagree with your definition of the Word of God are thinking carnally, but you are thinking spiritually? Really? I didn't realize that you are the embodiment of truth while the rest of us walk in darkness. How lost we are!

The Bible is the Word of God (in the normal English meaning). When John wrote "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" he was using the Greek word "logos", meaning the principle of divine reason and creative order. It is a difficult concept to understand, but it is referring to reason and order, not the written Word.

Again, the "Word of God", in common English usage, refers to God-inspired writings that have been collected for us into a single volume called "The Bible". Mixing the two meanings is confusing at best, sophistry at worst.

Dear Pescador,
The true meaning of scripture is taught in Christ's spiritual language and the ability for a person to understand that language is only given by Christ at the Latter Rain.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ and the words that He speaks are recorded by the prophets/saints and is called scripture. Scripture is not the Word of God but it does contain the words of God. You are confusing the title "Word of God" with words that the Word of God speaks. Scripture is merely a record of those words that the Word of God speaks and it acts as a witness of Him - it is not the "Word of God" itself.
Joe
 
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FaithWillDo

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I agree.

As for "Pentecostalism", I reject the two outpourings of the Holy Spirit as you've described.
To me, it is a dividing of one event that happens in the life of a believer and it confuses the filling of the Spirit and the indwelling of Him in one of God's children by calling them two outpourings and not one, which then manifests itself later and from time to time.

In other words, one outpouring at belief, and multiple manifestations of the same indwelling / outpouring throughout a believer's life and by the work of God.

I wish you well, sir.

Dear Navair2,
Scripture does not agree with you. Unless Christ comes again (second coming, Latter Rain), no one would be saved.

We must have the Early Rain that Paul received on the Damascus Road AND the Latter Rain He received three days latter.
Joe
 
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Scripture says that the words Christ speaks are "spirit". When scripture is teachings us, it uses words that are spirit words and they carry a "meaning different than what man's wisdom teaches".


Dear Pescador,
The true meaning of scripture is taught in Christ's spiritual language and the ability for a person to understand that language is only given by Christ at the Latter Rain.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ and the words that He speaks are recorded by the prophets/saints and is called scripture. Scripture is not the Word of God but it does contain the words of God. You are confusing the title "Word of God" with words that the Word of God speaks. Scripture is merely a record of those words that the Word of God speaks and it acts as a witness of Him - it is not the "Word of God" itself.
Joe

Again, Proverbs 30:5, and Luke 4:4 refute your false line of thinking that says that the Word of God cannot also be Scripture. They both say... EVERY Word of God. So unless you believe in multiple versions of Jesus, then this is referring to the communicated Word of God (i.e. in the form of words from God). What is the EVERY word of God referring to in these verses? Is it not talking about Scripture and or the spoken words of God? Is it not the communicated Word of God?
 
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FaithWillDo

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You say that when Christ speaks it comes out from the Word of God. However, Jesus Christ is the Word of God. They are one and the same. The Word was made flesh (See: John 1:1, and John 1:14).

Anyways, I have mentioned two verses to you previously in my other post (Proverbs 30:5, and Luke 4:4) that refutes your false line of thinking. For the Word of God can ALSO be Scripture, as well. But you refuse to truly address these two verses or explain them in a way that makes any logical sense.

Dear Bible Highlighter,
Yes, Jesus is the Word of God but the words He speaks is not the "Word of God". The Word of God is a name and/or even a title. The words and actions of the Word of God is how God communicates with us. In written form, the Word of God's words are called scripture. Jesus Christ is not scripture. Scripture is a witness of Jesus Christ who is the Word of God.

To hold up a bible and claim that it is the Word of God is not scripturally correct. The bible is a written record that witnesses the things that the Word of God said and did. Only Jesus Christ Himself is the Word of God.

Like I said, there is no reason to continue this discussion. You will not change my mind.
Joe
 
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Dear Bible Highlighter,
Yes, Jesus is the Word of God but the words He speaks is not the "Word of God". The Word of God is a name and/or even a title. The words and actions of the Word of God is how God communicates with us. In written form, the Word of God's words are called scripture. Jesus Christ is not scripture. Scripture is a witness of Jesus Christ who is the Word of God.

To hold up a bible and claim that it is the Word of God is not scripturally correct. The bible is a written record that witnesses the things that the Word of God said and did. Only Jesus Christ Himself is the Word of God.

Like I said, there is no reason to continue this discussion. You will not change my mind.
Joe

No, my friend. I am not saying Jesus Christ is Scripture. I am saying that the name, “Word of God” can refer to two different things in Scripture and it depends on the context (of which one it is referring to).

For example: I can say that,

"The dog's bark could be heard all the way down the street, He scratched his paws against the bark of tree at the squirrel up in the tree (hoping to get the little guy)."​

As you can see there are two words spelled as "bark" but yet they have two different meanings. These are called homonyms and they do exist in the Bible. Sons of God can refer to either a believer, or angels. It depends on the context. The same is true for the words, “Word of God” mentioned in Scripture.
 
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Dear Bible Highlighter,
Yes, Jesus is the Word of God but the words He speaks is not the "Word of God". The Word of God is a name and/or even a title. The words and actions of the Word of God is how God communicates with us. In written form, the Word of God's words are called scripture. Jesus Christ is not scripture. Scripture is a witness of Jesus Christ who is the Word of God.

To hold up a bible and claim that it is the Word of God is not scripturally correct. The bible is a written record that witnesses the things that the Word of God said and did. Only Jesus Christ Himself is the Word of God.

Like I said, there is no reason to continue this discussion. You will not change my mind.
Joe

So if you are correct, then the words, “Word of God” mentioned in Proverbs 30:5, and Luke 4:4 is in reference to Jesus. If this is the case, then you must believe there is more than one Jesus because they both say “EVERY Word of God.”

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that if you click on the link for Luke 4:4 it takes you to the ASV translation here on the forums. However, the ASV translation neuters this verse like a cat and removes the part that says, “...but by every word of God.”
 
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