CARNAL UNDERSTANDING VS. SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING

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You talk of the Latter Rain:

If it is the same as the Latter Rain Movement, I believe this to be a serious error.

The Latter Rain is a mystical, metaphysical movement; It is an end times revival where uncomely and unbiblical spirit manifestations including mimicking drunkenness and drug use, ecstatic gibberish, divination, screeching, clucking, laughing, barking, falling, flipping, and flopping.

According to the Latter Rain Movement, they believe that a new breed of hybrid super humans called the Manifest Sons of God– alleged to be miracle working incarnate god-men-equal to Jesus in every way- that have been given a divine commission to forcibly subdue the world thereby inaugurating the Second Coming of Christ to rule it.​


Source used:
Latter Rain and the Manifest Sons of God
 
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You say that we cannot approach God by our own works, and this is how we are deceived by Satan and can fall away from God. While it is true we cannot be saved by “Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace,” that does not mean that works in our Sanctification are unnecessary.

For who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12) (See also 1 John 2:3-4). So a believer who does good gives praise unto the Lord or God because it is the Lord doing the good work in them. A believer will not boast in their own goodness because there is no such thing. Only God alone is good, and a believer cooperates with God so as to allow God to work in them.
 
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FaithWillDo

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You say that the Scriptures are not the Word of God.
This is untrue.

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.” (Proverbs 30:5).

“And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.” (Luke 4:4).

The Bible talks about the Word of God as being in reference to Jesus, and also as in reference to the communicated Word (Scripture or the Spoken Word of God). Here is...

The Symbiotic Relationship Between
The Living Word, & the Communicated Word:


  1. Christ is good (John 10:11, John 10:14), and the word is good (1 Kings 2:42).

  2. Christ is the truth (John 14:6), and the word is the truth (John 17:17).

  3. Christ is called Faithful and True (Revelation 19:11), and the word is called faithful and true (Revelation 22:6).

  4. Christ is pure (1 John 3:3), and the word is pure (Proverbs 30:5).

  5. Christ is incorruptible (Acts of the Apostles 2:27), and the word is incorruptible (1 Peter 1:23).

  6. Christ abides forever (John 12:34), and the word abides forever (1 Peter 1:23).

  7. Christ’s name: “Jesus” is above all names (Which would include God’s name) (Philippians 2:9-10), and the word is above God’s name (Psalms 138:2).

  8. Christ has flaming eyes of fire (Revelation 19:12), and the Word is like a fire (Jeremiah 23:29).

  9. Christ can burn things like a fire (Matthew 3:12), and the word can burn things like a fire (Luke 24:32).

  10. Christ can be eaten (John 6:57), and the word can be eaten (Jeremiah 15:16).

  11. Christ is like the discovery of treasure (Matthew 13:44-46, cf. 2 Corinthians 4:7-10), and the word is like the discovery of treasure (Psalms 119:162).

  12. Christ is the light (John 8:12), and the word is light (Psalms 119:105).

  13. Christ is life (John 14:6, 1 John 5:12), and the word is life (John 6:63).

  14. Christ is the living bread (John 6:51), and the word is the living bread (Matthew 4:4).

  15. Christ is eternal life (Romans 6:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, 1 John 5:20) and the word is eternal life (John 6:68) (cf. Matthew 24:35, John 6:63).

  16. Christ quickens (makes alive) (John 5:21), and the word quickens (makes alive) (Psalms 119:50).

  17. It is by Christ which makes the gospel possible (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and it is by the word which makes the gospel possible (1 Peter 1:25).

  18. Christ is near to men (Acts of the Apostles 17:27) (Revelation 3:20) (Psalms 145:18), and the word is near to men (Romans 10:8).

  19. Christ discerns the heart (Matthew 9:4, Luke 9:47), and the word discerns the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

  20. Christ can get men through a storm (Mark 4:35-41), and the word can get men through a storm (Matthew 7:24-25).

  21. Christ sanctifies (John 17:19), and the word sanctifies (John 17:17).

  22. A person can stumble over Christ (Romans 9:33, 1 Peter 2:5-8), and a person can stumble over the word (1 Peter 2:8).

  23. Christ will judge men (John 5:22), and the word will judge men (John 12:48).

  24. Christ’s bones were never broken (John 19:36 cf. Psalms 34:20), and the word is never broken (John 10:35).

  25. Believers are told to seek after Christ (Matthew 28:5, Mark 16:6), and believers are told to seek after the word (Isaiah 34:16).

  26. Christ is our hope (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Colossians 1:27, 1 Timothy 1:1), and the word is our hope (Psalms 130:5).

  27. Believers are to have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16), and believers are to meditate (use their mind) upon the word (Psalms 119:148, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV).

  28. Christ is to be heard and obeyed (Matthew 7:24), and the word is to be heard and obeyed (James 1:22).

  29. The love of God is within Christ (Romans 8:39), and keeping the word places the love of God within us (1 John 2:5) (Also see John 14:23).

  30. Christ is the way to the living waters, which is the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39), and the washing of the water of the word (Ephesians 5:25-27) (which is obedience to God) is the way to having the Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

  31. Christ is like the foundation that is a part of a house (1 Corinthians 3:9, 1 Corinthians 3:11), and He is like a rock (1 Corinthians 10:4), and the obeying the word is like a house built upon the rock (Matthew 7:24).

  32. Believers are to follow after the steps of Christ (1 Peter 2:21), and believers are to order their steps in the word (Psalms 119:133).

  33. Christ breathed the Spirit upon his faithful chosen (John 20:22), and the word is “inspired by God” (i.e. God breathed) for the benefit of his faithful chosen (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

  34. Christ is the way to having the fruits of righteousness (Philippians 1:11), and the word is the way to being instructed in righteousness so to be perfect unto all good works (fruits) (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

  35. Christ can abide in us (John 15:4-7) (Ephesians 3:17) (Philippians 4:13), and the word can abide in us (John 15:7, Psalms 119:11).

  36. Christ dwells in our hearts (Ephesians 3:17), and the word dwells in our hearts (Colossians 3:16).

  37. Believers can be hidden in Christ (Colossians 3:3), and the word can be hidden in believers (Psalms 119:11).

  38. Christ is always with us (Matthew 28:20), and the word is always with us (Psalms 119:98).

  39. Christ can make our joy full (John 15:11), and the word can make our joy full (1 John 1:4).

  40. Believers’ hearts rejoice with Christ (John 16:22), and believers’ hearts rejoice with the word (Jeremiah 15:16).
..41. Christ is called a seed (Galatians 3:16), and the word is called a seed (1 Peter 1:23, Luke 8:11) (Note: See my post below here for further details).


The communicated word of God that we have today is the Bible.

“So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:11).​

Jesus (the Living Word) was sent by the commandment (mouth) of the Father. Jesus said and did everything the Father told Him to do (John 12:49) (John 14:31).

What is interesting is that the Living Word accomplished that which the Father commanded Him to do and to prosper (accomplish) that thing He sent to do (i.e. Jesus suffered on the cross, and said, “It is finished” and died for man’s sins). Jesus was risen three days later, and ascended to the Father. God’s Word (the living Word) did not return void by whom the Father sent.

The communicated Word can also be sent out and not return void, as well. For many have believed and have stayed faithful to what God’s Word says.

In the creation: The Word made flesh (John 1:1, John 1:14) (i.e. Christ) created everything. In the beginning God spoke words to bring forth the creation in six days (Genesis 1:1-31).

So in the beginning was the Living Word, and the communicated Word.

In the end of this sinful world: Christ will return (Revelation 19:11-21) and a sharp sword will proceed from His mouth. This sword could be the “sword of the Spirit,” (Which is the Word of God) or it could be symbolic of such (Ephesians 6:17).

So in the end there will be the Living Word, and the communicated Word.

For at Christ’s return: His name is called The “Word of God.” (Revelation 19:13) (Living Word).

On His thigh, and vesture is a name written (words) “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Communicated Word).

Jesus was beaten to a pulp and crucified on a tree.

The Word we have today (the Bible) is a result of pulp made from a tree.

Jesus was the Word made flesh (covered in skin).

The Word we have today (the Bible) is popular to be available covered in skin (leather).

Words on the page hang on this tree (paper) (the Bible),


Dear Bible Highlighter,
Thanks for your detailed response.

The "communicated" word comes from the Word of God (Christ). It is recorded on paper and bears witness of the Word. The Word is living and is can be written in our hearts. A piece of paper is not alive nor can it be written in our hearts. Once we have the Word (Christ) within us, we too become a witness for the Word (Christ).

Don't get me wrong, scripture is very important and comes from God but it is only a witness of the Word of God.

Your analogy at the end of your post is interesting but completely unscriptural and untrue.

Finally, the "Word" cannot be both Christ and a piece of paper.

Scripture (which is a witness of the Word) says this:

Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

When John wrote the book of Revelation, it bares record (witnesses) of the Word of God who is Christ.
Joe
 
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@FaithWillDo

You talk of the Latter Rain:

If it is the same as the Latter Rain Movement, I believe this to be a serious error.

The Latter Rain is a mystical, metaphysical movement; It is an end times revival where uncomely and unbiblical spirit manifestations including mimicking drunkenness and drug use, ecstatic gibberish, divination, screeching, clucking, laughing, barking, falling, flipping, and flopping.

According to the Latter Rain Movement, they believe that a new breed of hybrid super humans called the Manifest Sons of God– alleged to be miracle working incarnate god-men-equal to Jesus in every way- that have been given a divine commission to forcibly subdue the world thereby inaugurating the Second Coming of Christ to rule it.​


Source used:
Latter Rain and the Manifest Sons of God

Dear Bible Highlighter,
I do not know anything about the Latter Rain Movement but from what you say about it, I am sure it has no truth in it. My understanding of the Latter Rain has nothing to do with that Movement. My understanding of the Latter Rain comes completely from scripture.
Joe
 
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@FaithWillDo

I wanted to bring up another point about how you mention how if we try to approach God by our works, we fall away from God and are being deceived by Satan. While nobody can be saved by Works Alone without God's grace, works are a part of our Sanctification and Sanctification is the next step or stage in the salvation process (after we are saved by God's grace through in Jesus Christ and believing the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few be there that find it (Matthew 7:14).
This means that most are not going to find the narrow way that Jesus talked about.
So this means the vast majority view of salvation that folks teach in the churches today is not correct.
For most churches teach that you are saved by a belief alone in Jesus without works and that you can even abide in grievous sin on some level, and still be saved.

But is the popular majority of Christianity correct on how we do not need Sanctification as a part of our salvation? No, most certainly not. For...

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


#1. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

#2. "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

#3. "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

#4. "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Supplemental verse:

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).​

#5. "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

#6. "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

#7. “...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Supplemental verses:

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).​

#8. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

Supplemental verse:

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).​

#9. "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [accursed] Maranatha."(1 Corinthians 16:22).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

(b) “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).​

#10. ”And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

#11. “...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

#12. "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38). ”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

#13. "...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62) (cf. Luke 8:11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:15).

#14. "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

Supplemental verses:

(a) "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

(b) “Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.” (James 1:12).

(c) "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).​

#15. “And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

#16. ”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

#17. “For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

#18. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13).

#19. ”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

#20. ”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).
”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

#21. “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

#22. “He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

#23. “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7) (cf. 1 John 2:9-11).

#24. “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:20).

#25. “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

#26. “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21).

Supplementary verse:

“For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3).​

#27. “And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet [Jesus], shall be destroyed from among the people.” (Acts of the Apostles 3:23).

#28. “I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.’ (John 15:5-6).

Supplementary verses:

(a) “Bring forth therefore fruits befitting for repentance” (Matthew 3:8).

(b) “And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).​

#29. “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
 
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Dear Bible Highlighter,
Thanks for your detailed response.

The "communicated" word comes from the Word of God (Christ). It is recorded on paper and bears witness of the Word. The Word is living and is can be written in our hearts. A piece of paper is not alive nor can it be written in our hearts. Once we have the Word (Christ) within us, we too become a witness for the Word (Christ).

Don't get me wrong, scripture is very important and comes from God but it is only a witness of the Word of God.

Your analogy at the end of your post is interesting but completely unscriptural and untrue.

Finally, the "Word" cannot be both Christ and a piece of paper.

Scripture (which is a witness of the Word) says this:

Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

When John wrote the book of Revelation, it bares record (witnesses) of the Word of God who is Christ.
Joe

Words by God (whether spoken or written) are merely thoughts that express the mind of God and or what He desires from us. It is the words on the page which communicates God's Word. It's not the paper. But the Holy Bible is special because it contains God's words. Ever hear of the stories of how Bibles were not burned and yet everything around it had burned? There are tons of these kinds of stories.

Written words is merely a form of communication, just as spoken words are a form of communication. They are God's Word and it is how we get our faith. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). For without faith, it is impossible to please Him (God) (See: Hebrews 11:6). The parable of the sower is about how we receive the seed of the Word into our heart by the sowing of it by the Son of Man. This is the receiving of the words of Scripture for our salvation and also to the receiving and building of our faith. The seed is the Word of God (Luke 8:11), and the sower is the Son of Man (i.e. Jesus) (Matthew 13:37).

Here is an overview of biblical history and now in how God communicates with mankind.

full
 
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You say that we cannot approach God by our own works, and this is how we are deceived by Satan and can fall away from God. While it is true we cannot be saved by “Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace,” that does not mean that works in our Sanctification are unnecessary.

For who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12) (See also 1 John 2:3-4). So a believer who does good gives praise unto the Lord or God because it is the Lord doing the good work in them. A believer will not boast in their own goodness because there is no such thing. Only God alone is good, and a believer cooperates with God so as to allow God to work in them.

Dear Bible Highlighter,
For the most part, I agree with what you stated above though some it it was a little unclear as to your full understanding. Can you be more specific as to where you believe I differ from what you stated?

Also, do you believe mankind as a Free Will and from that Free Will we can either decide to accept or reject Christ?

From what you stated above, it certainly seems that you do not believe that mankind has a Free Will which of course is what scripture teaches.
Joe
 
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Dear Bible Highlighter,
For the most part, I agree with what you stated above though some it it was a little unclear as to your full understanding. Can you be more specific as to where you believe I differ from what you stated?

Also, do you believe mankind as a Free Will and from that Free Will we can either decide to accept or reject Christ?

From what you stated above, it certainly seems that you do not believe that mankind has a Free Will which of course is what scripture teaches.
Joe

Yes, I believe mankind has a free will to accept Jesus Christ. I am merely saying we have to freely cooperate with the good work that God desires to do through us if we surrender of our own free will to Him. But the good work we do is not our own alone, but it is God working through us.

Calvinism teaches against how we have a free will to accept Jesus Christ, and I am strongly against that set of teachings. In fact, I believe all five points of Calvinism are unbiblical big time.
 
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Words by God (whether spoken or written) are merely thoughts that express the mind of God and or what He desires from us. It is the words on the page which communicates God's Word. It's not the paper. But the Holy Bible is special because it contains God's words. Ever hear of the stories of how Bibles were not burned and yet everything around it had burned? There are tons of these kinds of stories.

Written words is merely a form of communication, just as spoken words are a form of communication. They are God's Word and it is how we get our faith. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). For without faith, it is impossible to please Him (God) (See: Hebrews 11:6). The parable of the sower is about how we receive the seed of the Word into our heart by the sowing of it by the Son of Man. This is the receiving of the words of Scripture for our salvation and also to the receiving and building of our faith. The seed is the Word of God (Luke 8:11), and the sower is the Son of Man (i.e. Jesus) (Matthew 13:37).

Here is an overview of biblical history and now in how God communicates with mankind.

full

I stand by what I stated earlier. Written scripture is a witness of the Word of God who is Christ.
Joe
 
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I stand by what I stated earlier. Written scripture is a witness of the Word of God who is Christ.
Joe

Scripture is a witness of Jesus Christ. No doubt about it, but without Scripture, we would not have faith in Jesus because faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). The Word of God is Scripture and it is also Jesus. Is not the seed the communicated Word of God? (See: Luke 8:11). Is not the sower of the good seed the Son of Man (i.e. Jesus)? (See: Matthew 13:37).

In other words, I would not know about Jesus unless I had a Holy Bible or without somebody preaching from the Holy Bible in some way.

If somebody receives a vision of Jesus this presents a contradiction in God's Word in several ways. For if you were to examine the visions that are out there of folks who had visions of Jesus, they always turn out to be unbiblical.
 
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I stand by what I stated earlier. Written scripture is a witness of the Word of God who is Christ.
Joe

What are words?

Words are a form of communication.

God communicates to us by the Holy Bible.

If you believe God communicates to you specific detailed instructions that includes the building of doctrine, and or the telling of new stories of God without the Bible, then I would say that is a serious problem.

We know everything we need to know about God by the Holy Bible. Without the Holy Bible, it is like a person is in a boat without a paddle.
 
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Yes, I believe mankind has a free will to accept Jesus Christ. I am merely saying we have to freely cooperate with the good work that God desires to do through us if we surrender of our own free will to Him. But the good work we do is not our own alone, but it is God working through us.

Calvinism teaches against how we have a free will to accept Jesus Christ, and I am strongly against that set of teachings. In fact, I believe all five points of Calvinism are unbiblical big time.


Dear Bible Highlighter,
I am not familiar with what Calvinism teaches but I am certain it is scripturally untrue. Here is why:

Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Everyone who is "Called Out" will eat this leavened bread.

As for our ability to make Free Will decisions to accept or reject Christ, scripture has this to say:

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul says that no understands God nor do they seek after Him. We are all made spiritually flawed and quickly become carnally minded. The carnal mind of mankind hates God and will reject Him every time. With this in mind, how can anyone ever make a decision to accept Christ? There is only one way - Christ MUST appear to us FIRST and give us the gift of the Holy Spirit. Only then can one call Jesus "Lord".

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

If Christ does not do His work within us first, no one would be saved.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

In our created condition, no one has the ability to make a Free Will decision to accept Christ.

Also, scripture says that Paul's conversion is the "pattern" that everyone must follow to receive salvation.

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

This pattern likewise teaches that Christ must FIRST come to us and give us the Early Rain of the Spirit before we can accept Him. He comes to us without our asking but once He comes, we too (like Paul on the Damascus Road) will fall to the earth and call Him "Lord". It cannot happen any other way. But the Early Rain of the Spirit is not enough to save us. Christ must "come again" like He did to Paul after He spent 3 days in Damascus being blind and in bed (represents being spiritually blind and "fallen away"). Then if one is Chosen, Christ will come a second time with the Latter Rain and heal our spiritual blindness. It is then that Paul was told to eat "meat".

From that pattern laid down, we are at the mercy of Christ to come to us and save us. We have no Free Will ability to accept Christ any other way. That is why our salvation is 100% the work of Christ. We contribute nothing. Scripture says that Christ will come to all mankind someday at a time of His choosing and that is why salvation for all mankind is certain.
Joe
 
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Scripture is a witness of Jesus Christ. No doubt about it, but without Scripture, we would not have faith in Jesus because faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). The Word of God is Scripture and it is also Jesus. Is not the seed the communicated Word of God? (See: Luke 8:11). Is not the sower of the good seed the Son of Man (i.e. Jesus)? (See: Matthew 13:37).

In other words, I would not know about Jesus unless I had a Holy Bible or without somebody preaching from the Holy Bible in some way.

If somebody receives a vision of Jesus this presents a contradiction in God's Word in several ways. For if you were to examine the visions that are out there of folks who had visions of Jesus, they always turn out to be unbiblical.


Dear Bible Highlighter,
What you stated is not scripturally correct. The Word of God is not scripture. It is Jesus Christ. Scripture is a witness of Christ. And yes, you might not know about Christ without a "bible" which "witnesses" about Him. Or you may not know about Christ with the "foolishness of preaching" which also witnesses about Him. And the Holy Spirit when It is "within" us, also "witnesses" about Him.

Think about this verse:
Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Scripture is going to pass away someday. It is written on paper and paper only lasts so long. But the true Word of God who is Christ will never pass away.

Scripture cannot be the Word of God. It is only a witness of the Word.

Joe
 
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Navair2

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Finally, the "Word" cannot be both Christ and a piece of paper.
It's not the paper...it is the words upon it, my friend.
Both Jesus Christ and the words on the page are one and the same.

For example, Christ is the spiritual and physical representation of the Godhead:

" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
( John 1:1-3 ).

" And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." ( John 1:14 ).


The words of God are what we as believers live by ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ):

" Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
" ( James 1:18 ).
" Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." ( John 15:3 )


Scripture is the word of God, inspired ( 2 Timothy 3:15-16 ) and written down by His apostles and prophets for His sheep to take comfort in ( Romans 15:4 ).
Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God made flesh, was the one who gave it to them.

The Lord Jesus and His every word are synonymous, and they both came forth from the Father.
Where you get the impression that they are not the same, I do not know.

To put it in a more summarized fashion,
The words on the page are Jesus Christ speaking to His sheep, the ones given to Him by His Father ( John 17:2 ).
 
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Dear Bible Highlighter,
What you stated is not scripturally correct. The Word of God is not scripture. It is Jesus Christ. Scripture is a witness of Christ. And yes, you might not know about Christ without a "bible" which "witnesses" about Him. Or you may not know about Christ with the "foolishness of preaching" which also witnesses about Him. And the Holy Spirit when It is "within" us, also "witnesses" about Him.

Think about this verse:
Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Scripture is going to pass away someday. It is written on paper and paper only lasts so long. But the true Word of God who is Christ will never pass away.

Scripture cannot be the Word of God. It is only a witness of the Word.

Joe

No, scripture is the word of God. There are two distinct meanings...

Word of God
- a manifestation of the mind and will of God. manifestation - a clear appearance; "a manifestation of great emotion" 2. Word of God - the sacred writings of the Christian religions; "he went to carry the Word to the heathen"

Also, the verse that you cited -- Matthew 24:35 -- says in part "... my words shall not pass away". "Words" is plural, so is there more than one Jesus Christ according to your thinking?
 
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Dear Bible Highlighter,
I am not familiar with what Calvinism teaches but I am certain it is scripturally untrue. Here is why:

Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Everyone who is "Called Out" will eat this leavened bread.

As for our ability to make Free Will decisions to accept or reject Christ, scripture has this to say:

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul says that no understands God nor do they seek after Him. We are all made spiritually flawed and quickly become carnally minded. The carnal mind of mankind hates God and will reject Him every time. With this in mind, how can anyone ever make a decision to accept Christ? There is only one way - Christ MUST appear to us FIRST and give us the gift of the Holy Spirit. Only then can one call Jesus "Lord".

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

If Christ does not do His work within us first, no one would be saved.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

In our created condition, no one has the ability to make a Free Will decision to accept Christ.

Also, scripture says that Paul's conversion is the "pattern" that everyone must follow to receive salvation.

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

This pattern likewise teaches that Christ must FIRST come to us and give us the Early Rain of the Spirit before we can accept Him. He comes to us without our asking but once He comes, we too (like Paul on the Damascus Road) will fall to the earth and call Him "Lord". It cannot happen any other way. But the Early Rain of the Spirit is not enough to save us. Christ must "come again" like He did to Paul after He spent 3 days in Damascus being blind and in bed (represents being spiritually blind and "fallen away"). Then if one is Chosen, Christ will come a second time with the Latter Rain and heal our spiritual blindness. It is then that Paul was told to eat "meat".

From that pattern laid down, we are at the mercy of Christ to come to us and save us. We have no Free Will ability to accept Christ any other way. That is why our salvation is 100% the work of Christ. We contribute nothing. Scripture says that Christ will come to all mankind someday at a time of His choosing and that is why salvation for all mankind is certain.
Joe

You said you are certain that Calvinism is untrue, but it sounds like you believe in a form of Calvinism by what you stated in this post. Calvinists do not believe mankind possesses any free will ability to accept Jesus Christ. They believe all men are depraved and unable to come to God on their own, and God needs to regenerate them in order for them to be enabled to believe in the gospel and accept Jesus, etc.; One of the big points in Calvinism is Unconditional Election. This to me is an attack upon the good character of our God. I don't believe God forces some to be saved, and forces others to be unsaved. In other words, God does not create a bunch of life for the specific purpose to be tortured alive for all eternity based on His sovereign good will (against their free will choice). Men are not pre-determined in life to face torture for all eternity. That's like kicking your dog that poops on your carpet when you know it has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it is sick (when you could simply just take it to the vet and help the poor animal).
 
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Dear Bible Highlighter,
What you stated is not scripturally correct. The Word of God is not scripture. It is Jesus Christ. Scripture is a witness of Christ. And yes, you might not know about Christ without a "bible" which "witnesses" about Him. Or you may not know about Christ with the "foolishness of preaching" which also witnesses about Him. And the Holy Spirit when It is "within" us, also "witnesses" about Him.

Think about this verse:
Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Scripture is going to pass away someday. It is written on paper and paper only lasts so long. But the true Word of God who is Christ will never pass away.

Scripture cannot be the Word of God. It is only a witness of the Word.

Joe

This is patently false. The Word of God is not only Jesus, but is also the communicated Word of God (Which is either the spoken Word of God or the written Word of God, i.e. Scripture). How so? Well, we see the Bible make a reference to EVERY WORD OF GOD.

Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.” (Proverbs 30:5).

“And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.” (Luke 4:4).​

So unless you believe there are multiple versions of Jesus, then we must conclude that “EVERY word of God” (mentioned in these above two verses) is in reference to God's Holy Word (i.e. the spoken Word of God or the written Word of God, i.e. Scripture).
 
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Dear Bible Highlighter,
What you stated is not scripturally correct. The Word of God is not scripture. It is Jesus Christ. Scripture is a witness of Christ. And yes, you might not know about Christ without a "bible" which "witnesses" about Him. Or you may not know about Christ with the "foolishness of preaching" which also witnesses about Him. And the Holy Spirit when It is "within" us, also "witnesses" about Him.

Think about this verse:
Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Scripture is going to pass away someday. It is written on paper and paper only lasts so long. But the true Word of God who is Christ will never pass away.

Scripture cannot be the Word of God. It is only a witness of the Word.

Joe

I also showed you that there is a connection between the Living Word and the Communicated Word (i.e. Scripture or the Spoken Word of God).

The Symbiotic Relationship Between
The Living Word, & the Communicated Word:


  1. Christ is good (John 10:11, John 10:14), and the word is good (1 Kings 2:42).

  2. Christ is the truth (John 14:6), and the word is the truth (John 17:17).

  3. Christ is called Faithful and True (Revelation 19:11), and the word is called faithful and true (Revelation 22:6).

  4. Christ is pure (1 John 3:3), and the word is pure (Proverbs 30:5).

  5. Christ is incorruptible (Acts of the Apostles 2:27), and the word is incorruptible (1 Peter 1:23).

  6. Christ abides forever (John 12:34), and the word abides forever (1 Peter 1:23).

  7. Christ’s name: “Jesus” is above all names (Which would include God’s name) (Philippians 2:9-10), and the word is above God’s name (Psalms 138:2).

  8. Christ has flaming eyes of fire (Revelation 19:12), and the Word is like a fire (Jeremiah 23:29).

  9. Christ can burn things like a fire (Matthew 3:12), and the word can burn things like a fire (Luke 24:32).

  10. Christ can be eaten (John 6:57), and the word can be eaten (Jeremiah 15:16).

  11. Christ is like the discovery of treasure (Matthew 13:44-46, cf. 2 Corinthians 4:7-10), and the word is like the discovery of treasure (Psalms 119:162).

  12. Christ is the light (John 8:12), and the word is light (Psalms 119:105).

  13. Christ is life (John 14:6, 1 John 5:12), and the word is life (John 6:63).

  14. Christ is the living bread (John 6:51), and the word is the living bread (Matthew 4:4).

  15. Christ is eternal life (Romans 6:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, 1 John 5:20) and the word is eternal life (John 6:68) (cf. Matthew 24:35, John 6:63).

  16. Christ quickens (makes alive) (John 5:21), and the word quickens (makes alive) (Psalms 119:50).

  17. It is by Christ which makes the gospel possible (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and it is by the word which makes the gospel possible (1 Peter 1:25).

  18. Christ is near to men (Acts of the Apostles 17:27) (Revelation 3:20) (Psalms 145:18), and the word is near to men (Romans 10:8).

  19. Christ discerns the heart (Matthew 9:4, Luke 9:47), and the word discerns the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

  20. Christ can get men through a storm (Mark 4:35-41), and the word can get men through a storm (Matthew 7:24-25).

  21. Christ sanctifies (John 17:19), and the word sanctifies (John 17:17).

  22. A person can stumble over Christ (Romans 9:33, 1 Peter 2:5-8), and a person can stumble over the word (1 Peter 2:8).

  23. Christ will judge men (John 5:22), and the word will judge men (John 12:48).

  24. Christ’s bones were never broken (John 19:36 cf. Psalms 34:20), and the word is never broken (John 10:35).

  25. Believers are told to seek after Christ (Matthew 28:5, Mark 16:6), and believers are told to seek after the word (Isaiah 34:16).

  26. Christ is our hope (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Colossians 1:27, 1 Timothy 1:1), and the word is our hope (Psalms 130:5).

  27. Believers are to have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16), and believers are to meditate (use their mind) upon the word (Psalms 119:148, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV).

  28. Christ is to be heard and obeyed (Matthew 7:24), and the word is to be heard and obeyed (James 1:22).

  29. The love of God is within Christ (Romans 8:39), and keeping the word places the love of God within us (1 John 2:5) (Also see John 14:23).

  30. Christ is the way to the living waters, which is the Holy Spirit (John 7:37-39), and the washing of the water of the word (Ephesians 5:25-27) (which is obedience to God) is the way to having the Spirit (Acts of the Apostles 5:32).

  31. Christ is like the foundation that is a part of a house (1 Corinthians 3:9, 1 Corinthians 3:11), and He is like a rock (1 Corinthians 10:4), and the obeying the word is like a house built upon the rock (Matthew 7:24).

  32. Believers are to follow after the steps of Christ (1 Peter 2:21), and believers are to order their steps in the word (Psalms 119:133).

  33. Christ breathed the Spirit upon his faithful chosen (John 20:22), and the word is “inspired by God” (i.e. God breathed) for the benefit of his faithful chosen (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

  34. Christ is the way to having the fruits of righteousness (Philippians 1:11), and the word is the way to being instructed in righteousness so to be perfect unto all good works (fruits) (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

  35. Christ can abide in us (John 15:4-7) (Ephesians 3:17) (Philippians 4:13), and the word can abide in us (John 15:7, Psalms 119:11).

  36. Christ dwells in our hearts (Ephesians 3:17), and the word dwells in our hearts (Colossians 3:16).

  37. Believers can be hidden in Christ (Colossians 3:3), and the word can be hidden in believers (Psalms 119:11).

  38. Christ is always with us (Matthew 28:20), and the word is always with us (Psalms 119:98).

  39. Christ can make our joy full (John 15:11), and the word can make our joy full (1 John 1:4).

  40. Believers’ hearts rejoice with Christ (John 16:22), and believers’ hearts rejoice with the word (Jeremiah 15:16).
..41. Christ is called a seed (Galatians 3:16), and the word is called a seed (1 Peter 1:23, Luke 8:11) (Note: See my post below here for further details).
 
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Navair2

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First of all, without the EARLY and LATTER rain of the Spirit, a person is not going to fully understand and believe the truth of Christ. But if one has been blessed by Christ to be given both measures of His Spirit then it is possible to find the knowledge of God.
My friend, to answer your OP, there is only one outpouring of the Spirit necessary to understand the Scriptures ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 )...
Because the natural man does not "receive", or welcome the things of the Spirit of God, and they are foolishness to him...Neither can he know them, for they are spiritually ( by the Spirit ) discerned ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ), it is necessary for the Lord to give us, as His people, the Spirit...The one when a person was sealed unto the day of redemption ( Ephesians 4:30 ), when they first believed the Gospel ( Ephesians 1:13 ).



So while I agree with you that it takes the power and presence of the Holy Spirit to do such, there is no early and latter rain of the Spirit ( two outpourings ) that are needed for this. There is only one measure of the Spirit given to His people, their Comforter....of which they can be full of the Spirit, or quench Him.

The early and latter rain that you speak of in the Bible, is the Lord waiting for the precious fruit of the earth...His people ( James 5:7 ).

In the pattern given in Deuteronomy 11:14, Jeremiah 5:24 and Joel 2:23 where the early ( Spring ) rains come for planting and to enable growth, and the latter ( Autumn ) rains come before harvest and to ensure a fuller fruit, the Lord feeds and waters His sheep so that they grow to their fullest, spiritually ( 1 Peter 2:2 ).

Not only is the word described as "milk" and "meat" ( 1 Corinthians 3:2 ), it is also water ( Ephesians 5:26 ) by which the Lord's ministers feed and water the sheep ( 1 Corinthians 3:5-8 ), while He gives the increase.

He gives both an early ( preaching of the Gospel ) and a latter ( preaching of doctrine by the word ) rain so that in the process, His children grow to maturity and bear fruit ( Galatians 5:22-23 )...
Some 30, some 60 and some 100-fold ( Matthew 13 ).


May God bless you richly in your studies.:)
 
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Again, Jesus (the Living Word) was sent by the commandment (mouth) of the Father. Jesus said and did everything the Father told Him to do (John 12:49) (John 14:31).

What is interesting is that the Living Word accomplished that which the Father commanded Him to do and to prosper (accomplish) that thing He sent to do (i.e. Jesus suffered on the cross, and said, “It is finished” and died for man’s sins). Jesus was risen three days later, and ascended to the Father. God’s Word (the living Word) did not return void by whom the Father sent.

The communicated Word can also be sent out and not return void, as well. For many have believed and have stayed faithful to what God’s Word says.

In the creation: The Word made flesh (John 1:1, John 1:14) (i.e. Christ) created everything. In the beginning God spoke words to bring forth the creation in six days (Genesis 1:1-31).

So in the beginning was the Living Word, and the communicated Word.

In the end of this sinful world: Christ will return (Revelation 19:11-21) and a sharp sword will proceed from His mouth. This sword could be the “sword of the Spirit,” (Which is the Word of God) or it could be symbolic of such (Ephesians 6:17).

So in the end there will be the Living Word, and the communicated Word.

For at Christ’s return: His name is called The “Word of God.” (Revelation 19:13) (Living Word).

On His thigh, and vesture is a name written (words) “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (Communicated Word).

Jesus was beaten to a pulp and crucified on a tree.

The Word we have today (the Bible) is a result of pulp made from a tree.

Jesus was the Word made flesh (covered in skin).

The Word we have today (the Bible) is popular to be available covered in skin (leather).
 
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