Are Women Allowed To Be Pastors?

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Major1

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Because it isn't God doing any restricting. It is you, misinterpreting God's word, that is doing the restricting of women from serving the Lord in various ways.

Please explain how 1 Timothy 3:312 has been "misinterpreted" by me........

1 Timothy 3:1-2......
"This is a true saying, If a MAN desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

By the LITERAL words found in the Bible, God says that to be a Bishop/Pastor one must be a MAN. That MAN then must be a MARRIED MAN.

That is what I have said and now please tell all of us how I misinterpeted those words.
 
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When the masculine gender is the default in a language, this means that the masculine gender is used to describe any person or group of people containing at least one man. The feminine gender would only be used when referring to a female person or a group of people who are all female.

"A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways," the Greek word for "man," which is transliterated as "aner." The ancient Greek did have a gender-neutral word which meant "person" -- "anthropos"-- and this word is often used in the New Testament. "let not that person ("anthropos") think he shall receive anything from the Lord."

Does that mean only men are double-minded or only those who receive the flesh but not the spirit?
 
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Gregorikos

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Please explain how 1 Timothy 3:312 has been "misinterpreted" by me........

1 Timothy 3:1-2......
"This is a true saying, If a MAN desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND OF ONE WIFE vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

By the LITERAL words found in the Bible, God says that to be a Bishop/Pastor one must be a MAN. That MAN then must be a MARRIED MAN.

That is what I have said and now please tell all of us how I misinterpeted those words.

I already answered all of this in replies directly to you. I don't know how you missed them.

I pointed out how you misinterpreted 1 Timothy 3:1, in post #49. In short, the English translation you are using has misled you. There is no word MAN there in the Greek text.

Then in post #89, also directly to you, explained how you misinterpreted the idiom "husband of one wife" in 1 Timothy 3:2. That is an idiom for marital faithfulness. Paul is not specifying that a bishop must be a male.
 
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Gregorikos

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When the masculine gender is the default in a language, this means that the masculine gender is used to describe any person or group of people containing at least one man. The feminine gender would only be used when referring to a female person or a group of people who are all female.

"A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways," the Greek word for "man," which is transliterated as "aner." The ancient Greek did have a gender-neutral word which meant "person" -- "anthropos"-- and this word is often used in the New Testament. "let not that person ("anthropos") think he shall receive anything from the Lord."

Does that mean only men are double-minded or only those who receive the flesh but not the spirit?

This is said very well, and is at the heart of a lot of Major1's interpretive errors.
 
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Paidiske

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You said........
"And also there is the question of vocation, and God's sovereignty to call whom God wills."

Do you actually believe that God would call someone to be something that He has already said that they could not be.????

No. So when God calls women, we know that an interpretation of Scripture which excludes women from those roles is in error.

1 Timothy 3:1.....
"If a MAN desires to hold the office of a bishop........".

Actually, in the Greek it's "ei tis," if anyone desires... The word "man" is not there in the original but has been inserted by the translators. If you're going to accuse folks of ignorance, then it's best not to use arguments which can be so easily discredited with just a little knowledge.

What you are suggesting actually makes God a liar. You do realize that...right???

No, because Scripture bears witness to God's gifting and calling of women alongside men.
 
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Endeavourer

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@Major1

My husband decided to chime in; his response is below:

During my 30+ yrs. of living the Christian life I have become highly irritated with other Christians who simply couldn't understand what appeared to me to be obvious Biblical truths. I couldn't accept that they were unable to plainly see what I did when I studied the scriptures. Then, one day, I realized that I was not the Deputy Holy Spirit and therefore it was not my job to "lead people into all truth". I decided that God was big enough to handle the job Himself; therefore, since that liberating day, I no longer get excited when someone believes differently than I do. In Christ I find liberty to be different.

You see, if I'm confident enough in who and what I am, in what I believe and why I believe it, there's no need to for me to fret over what other people think or believe. The overwhelming confidence I have in God and the liberty I find in Christ allows me to be a majority while standing alone. I respect this same Holy Spirit given liberty for others to form their own convictions. This allows God to deal individually with his children without me getting in the way. That's why we call it a "personal salvation".
 
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Major1

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@Major1

My husband decided to chime in; his response is below:

During my 30+ yrs. of living the Christian life I have become highly irritated with other Christians who simply couldn't understand what appeared to me to be obvious Biblical truths. I couldn't accept that they were unable to plainly see what I did when I studied the scriptures. Then, one day, I realized that I was not the Deputy Holy Spirit and therefore it was not my job to "lead people into all truth". I decided that God was big enough to handle the job Himself; therefore, since that liberating day, I no longer get excited when someone believes differently than I do. In Christ I find liberty to be different.

You see, if I'm confident enough in who and what I am, in what I believe and why I believe it, there's no need to for me to fret over what other people think or believe. The overwhelming confidence I have in God and the liberty I find in Christ allows me to be a majority while standing alone. I respect this same Holy Spirit given liberty for others to form their own convictions. This allows God to deal individually with his children without me getting in the way. That's why we call it a "personal salvation".

Thank you for the advise. It has been my observation over the years that many erroneous and heretical ideas have crept into the contemporary Christian church. I
simply post present comments to examine some of the most common unbiblical church practices we see today.

A lot of these practices and ideas are so well-entrenched in churches and denominations that many professing Christians simply assume there is nothing wrong, nothing unbiblical about them. All of these erroneous practices are harmful to God’s one true Church because they tend to focus on the sinner more than on God.

They tend to distort and/or dilute biblical truth. They cause confusion in the minds of Christians who end up getting tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. The confusion makes for a bad testimony for Christ’s body to those outside the Church.

A “true” shepherd of a local flock – a really faithful and caring pastor of a local congregation – should warn his people about these unbiblical practices and dangerous doctrines but for various reasons that does not seem to happen very often.

If what I have posted bothers you then that means something said is actually convicting you. If you do not agree.....then so be it and that is all you have to say.

And may God richly bless you as you study to show yourself approved, as you earnestly contend for the faith, as you prove all things and as you make disciples… starting with yourself.
 
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Major1

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No. So when God calls women, we know that an interpretation of Scripture which excludes women from those roles is in error.



Actually, in the Greek it's "ei tis," if anyone desires... The word "man" is not there in the original but has been inserted by the translators. If you're going to accuse folks of ignorance, then it's best not to use arguments which can be so easily discredited with just a little knowledge.



No, because Scripture bears witness to God's gifting and calling of women alongside men.

Because you are a woman is a position we are discussing, I can very well understand why you would make the comment you made.

I do hope that you would not think that what I have posted was just off the cuff of my arm.

Let’s look at the context. The word “overseer” in Greek in 1 Timothy 3:1 is in the feminine. What follows is verse 2, which says, “An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach” (1 Tim. 3:2).

Because Paul clearly says the overseer must be a man, then we can understand why some translations insert the word “office” in verse one because the position is what is being spoken about, not the person. It would be the office that is feminine. But, the one who occupies the office is masculine.

Furthermore, in 1 Timothy 3:2, the phrase “husband of one wife” in Greek is ἄνδρα μιᾶς γυναικὸς, andra mias gunaikos........so then----(1)
andra = man, husband. “A man, i.e, an adult male person.”(2)
mias = “One, the first cardinal numeral.” (1)
gunaikos = Woman, wife, (2)

So Paul is clearly telling us that the overseer must be a “man of one woman” which is translated as “husband of one wife.” This refutes the counter-argument.

It is not a valid argument to say that because the Greek word for bishop in 1 Timothy 3:1 is in the feminine form that we must then permit women to be bishops. The office itself is feminine but is held by men. This is clearly stated by Paul when he clarifies the qualifications for a bishop as being, literally, “a man of one woman,” or “the husband of one wife.” A woman cannot fulfill this biblical requirement.

References

1↑ Zodhiates, Spiros. The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament. Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2000.
2↑, 3↑ ibid. Zodhiates, Spiros.

Care for some more knowledge?
 
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Major1

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I already answered all of this in replies directly to you. I don't know how you missed them.

I pointed out how you misinterpreted 1 Timothy 3:1, in post #49. In short, the English translation you are using has misled you. There is no word MAN there in the Greek text.

Then in post #89, also directly to you, explained how you misinterpreted the idiom "husband of one wife" in 1 Timothy 3:2. That is an idiom for marital faithfulness. Paul is not specifying that a bishop must be a male.

Post #148 answers your position.
 
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Gregorikos

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I encourage to consider post #148.

That's fine, but post #148 does not address my first point to you:

Εἴ τις ἐπισκοπῆς ὀρέγεται

That means "if anyone." Not "any man." Your English translation misled you into error and you based your opening point on that error.

It often helps to consult alternate translations.

The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, (ESV)


Let’s look at the context. The word “overseer” in Greek in 1 Timothy 3:1 is in the feminine.

This is an irrelevant point. ἐπισκοπή is always a feminine noun.


Because Paul clearly says the overseer must be a man

Paul doesn't say that at all, neither clearly nor any other way.


Furthermore, in 1 Timothy 3:2, the phrase “husband of one wife” in Greek is ἄνδρα μιᾶς γυναικὸς, andra mias gunaikos........so then----(1)
andra = man, husband. “A man, i.e, an adult male person.”(2)
mias = “One, the first cardinal numeral.” (1)
gunaikos = Woman, wife, (2)

Everyone agrees that ἄνδρα μιᾶς γυναικὸς is literally "husband of one wife" or "man of one woman." But as I said to you earlier-

The "husband of one wife" is an idiom for marital faithfulness. (1 Tim 3:2, 12, 5:9) As is typical of language, male is the default. Paul would not have said "wife of one husband" to refer to both genders. (See Cassia's point in post #146)

Paul also said deacons must be the "husband of one wife" (v 12) yet Phoebe was a deacon of the church in Cenchrae. ( Rom 16:1)

On the idiomatic useage, Here is from Andreas J. Köstenberger, complementarian SBC Bible scholar and the editor of the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, in his Commentary on 1-2 Timothy and Titus

The requirement of being. literally, a ‘‘one-wife-type-of-husband" resembles that of the Roman univira (a “one-husband-type-of-wife”). This term conveying marital fidelity initially applied to wives during their lifetime and later became an epithet husbands gave to their wives after they died, as is attested by numerous extant tombstone inscriptions. The understanding that this requirement was aimed at excluding polygamists is implausible because polygamy wasn’t a widespread practice in the Greco-Roman world of the time. More likely Paul here excludes men with one or several concubines. This common practice conflicted with biblical morals since sexual union with a concubine constituted adultery and amounted to polygamy. Most likely, therefore, “husband of one wife” represents an idiom for marital faithfulness (e.g.. NIV: “faithful to his wife”).

This is further suggested by the parallel wording in 5:9, where a widow must have been “the wife of one husband” in order to be eligible for church support and where the equivalent phrase ἑνὸς ἀνδρὸς γυνή is used (cf. | Cor 7:2-5). In that case the issue is not polyandry (simultaneous marriage to multiple husbands) because Paul addresses women bereft of their husbands.
 
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Major1

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That's fine, but post #148 does not address my first point to you:

Εἴ τις ἐπισκοπῆς ὀρέγεται

That means "if anyone." Not "any man." Your English translation misled you into error and you based your opening point on that error.

It often helps to consult alternate translations.

The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, (ESV)




This is an irrelevant point. ἐπισκοπή is always a feminine noun.




Paul doesn't say that at all, neither clearly nor any other way.




Everyone agrees that ἄνδρα μιᾶς γυναικὸς is literally "husband of one wife" or "man of one woman." But as I said to you earlier-

The "husband of one wife" is an idiom for marital faithfulness. (1 Tim 3:2, 12, 5:9) As is typical of language, male is the default. Paul would not have said "wife of one husband" to refer to both genders. (See Cassia's point in post #146)

Paul also said deacons must be the "husband of one wife" (v 12) yet Phoebe was a deacon of the church in Cenchrae. ( Rom 16:1)

On the idiomatic useage, Here is from Andreas J. Köstenberger, complementarian SBC Bible scholar and the editor of the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, in his Commentary on 1-2 Timothy and Titus

The requirement of being. literally, a ‘‘one-wife-type-of-husband" resembles that of the Roman univira (a “one-husband-type-of-wife”). This term conveying marital fidelity initially applied to wives during their lifetime and later became an epithet husbands gave to their wives after they died, as is attested by numerous extant tombstone inscriptions. The understanding that this requirement was aimed at excluding polygamists is implausible because polygamy wasn’t a widespread practice in the Greco-Roman world of the time. More likely Paul here excludes men with one or several concubines. This common practice conflicted with biblical morals since sexual union with a concubine constituted adultery and amounted to polygamy. Most likely, therefore, “husband of one wife” represents an idiom for marital faithfulness (e.g.. NIV: “faithful to his wife”).

This is further suggested by the parallel wording in 5:9, where a widow must have been “the wife of one husband” in order to be eligible for church support and where the equivalent phrase ἑνὸς ἀνδρὸς γυνή is used (cf. | Cor 7:2-5). In that case the issue is not polyandry (simultaneous marriage to multiple husbands) because Paul addresses women bereft of their husbands.

New King James Version
This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work.

New American Standard Bible
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

NASB 1995
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

NASB 1977
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

Amplified Bible
This is a faithful and trustworthy saying: if any man [eagerly] seeks the office of overseer (bishop, superintendent), he desires an excellent task.

American Standard Version
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Douay-Rheims Bible
A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

English Revised Version
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Good News Translation
This is a true saying: If a man is eager to be a church leader, he desires an excellent work.

Now in responce to you post.....if this pronoun in question does not restrict women, so the argument goes as you have stated, then surely the specification that an overseer be “the husband of but one wife” points exclusively to a male.

Since a woman cannot be the husband of one wife, it naturally follows that she cannot be an overseer.
 
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Gregorikos

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New King James Version
This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work.

New American Standard Bible
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

NASB 1995
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

NASB 1977
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

Amplified Bible
This is a faithful and trustworthy saying: if any man [eagerly] seeks the office of overseer (bishop, superintendent), he desires an excellent task.

American Standard Version
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Douay-Rheims Bible
A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

English Revised Version
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Good News Translation
This is a true saying: If a man is eager to be a church leader, he desires an excellent work.

Now in responce to you post.....if this pronoun in question does not restrict women, so the argument goes as you have stated, then surely the specification that an overseer be “the husband of but one wife” points exclusively to a male.

Since a woman cannot be the husband of one wife, it naturally follows that she cannot be an overseer.

Good grief. Why don't you engage what I write rather than continuing with your blather? Everybody knows there are translations in existence that insert "a man" there, especially older ones like the Douay-Rheims, English Revised Version, and the ASV, all 120 years old or older.

I've posted this before in response to you. Here is it again.

τις (1) τι: a reference to someone or something indefinite, spoken or written about - someone, something, anyone, a, anything. ἐάν τις ὑμι̂ν εἴπω τι if anyone says anything to you MAT.21:3 (Louw & Nida Lexicon) (Notice the example in Mat 21:3)

If you don't believe that one, here is another.

τὶς, τὶ gen. τινός dat. τινί acc. τινά, τὶ enclitic pro. and adj. anyone, anything; someone, something; any, some, a certain, several; ἐάν τις (τι), εἴ τις (τι) whoever (whatever); εἶναί τις (τι) be someone (something) of importance (Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testam)

Major1 said:
Now in responce to you post.....if this pronoun in question does not restrict women, so the argument goes as you have stated, then surely the specification that an overseer be “the husband of but one wife” points exclusively to a male.

No, it doesn't. I've explained it to you twice, the most recent in the post directly above your last one. (#151)
 
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Religiot

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It is not my intention to cause an argument or division among the faithful with that question just discussion in a Christian and civil manner.

I have always simply posted the Word of God as it is written. I post this question in order to properly attempt to teach the Word of God....PEROID!

1 Timothy 3:1-2.........
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

According to the written Word of God, a Pastor can only be a "Male/Man".

Now, before anyone argues that point or disagree with me, remember that the "One" who said..."In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" also was the "One" who said......
"if a "MAN" desire the office of a bishop".

The old Major did not have anything whatsoever to do with what Jesus Christ placed into the Word of God. The old Major just reads it and accepts it as it is written so your disagreements will be with Christ and not me!!!!

Now the question must be WHY would God do that?

1 Timothy 2:13-14 .....
"For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

It’s important to understand that Paul does not prohibit women from teaching in all contexts (Titus 2:3; Acts 18:25-26), only from teaching the Bible to men in the church.

Notice that Paul prohibits women from doing two distinct things.

1.
Women may not teach the Bible to men in the church.
2.
Women may not exercise authority over men in the church.

Teaching and exercising authority in the church are the two primary responsibilities of elders, pastors, or bishops. Thus, women are not to hold the office of pastor, but neither are they to perform these particular functions of a pastor over men in the church.

Again, for the inquisitive minds the question is still...WHY is that the case.

I will give you what I think is the reason behinds God's direction.

1.
The creation order is the first reason Paul gives for prohibiting women from teaching or exercising authority in the church
.
Paul doesn’t ground his command in cultural considerations or a particular problem with the women in the Ephesian church. Rather, he grounds his command in creation. He says that the reason women are not to teach or exercise authority over men in the church is that....
“Adam was formed first, then Eve”. Paul means that God established Adam as the head and authority of his wife, Eve. God designed men to lead.

2.
The nature of women is the second reason Paul gives for prohibiting them from teaching or exercising authority in the church
.
Paul says, “Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (1 Tim 2:14). Paul is saying something about the natural constitution of men and women, that men as a class are naturally more fitted to teach and have authority in the church, but women are not.
Dr. Wayne Grudem says, “This is by far the most common viewpoint in the history of the interpretation of this passage” (Evangelical Feminism & Biblical Truth 70).
No, women are not allowed, period.

However, they are allowed to have authority over other women, and anyone under the age of 20 years.

So the ministry of women is highly demanding, for not only must they teach other women, they must also teach the children.

Thank God for faithful women!!
 
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Gregorikos

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No, women are not allowed, period.

However, they are allowed to have authority over other women, and anyone under the age of 20 years.

So the ministry of women is highly demanding, for not only must they teach other women, they must also teach the children.

Thank God for faithful women!!

Nobody is allowed to have the kind of authority mentioned in 1 Tim 2:12 over anybody else. That isn't pastoral authority. This is more akin to what Jesus was describing in Matthew 20:25-28.

Also, where did you get your information to set the age of boys that women can lead them? Are you sure? How do you know?
 
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Religiot

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Nobody is allowed to have the kind of authority mentioned in 1 Tim 2:12 over anybody else. That isn't pastoral authority. This is more akin to what Jesus was describing in Matthew 20:25-28.

Also, where did you get your information to set the age of boys that women can lead them? Are you sure? How do you know?
I got that information from the scriptures: men are only counted from the age of 20 years and up. Any male under 20 is not counted a man, nor is he taxed, nor can he go to war--he is not reckoned for such things til he is of age, namely, 20 years.
 
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Gregorikos

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I got that information from the scriptures: men are only counted from the age of 20 years and up. Any male under 20 is not counted a man, nor is he taxed, nor can he go to war--he is not reckoned for such things til he is of age, namely, 20 years.

Well what's your chapter and verse? Let's have a look at it
 
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Daniel Marsh

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For those reading, YES, women can be pastors. What you have seen here is an incorrect interpretation of this scripture that does not line up with the rest of scripture. The OP is obsessed with this topic, which is revealing. Also, unless he is raising his hands while worshiping and praying for people it is hypocrisy. I long ago decided I would no longer engage him on this topic, however if anyone would like to know why women can be pastors and why the interpretation presented here is wrong feel free to DM me.

If I started this thread, I would have asked if Scripture is culturally conditioned. In some case maybe. Example, most women do not wear head coverings in church. I can see women being an assistant pastor over women.

Romans 16
1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

I think the above text opens the possibility of a deaconess. These would be good to heal the sick with elders like in the book of James.

James 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

I am pointed out that when the sick are female, women anointing her as deaconess would make more sense to avoid trouble or misunderstandings. This may come into play with Women teaching Women.

Where is Scripture culturally conditioned?
 
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