Concerning the Return of Jesus

nolidad said:

So the people in heaven in REv. 19 are mortals to you.

Present tense in Greek in all types of literature means a continual action! YOu are looking for the aorist and that is why you look silly promoting these silly concepts.

If only you did biblical truths concerning the church being glorified and when people are given immortality. but you have drank the Kool Aid from whoever your teachers are (and please don't blame God).

YOU said to be absent from teh body is to be present with th eLord means souls sleep and it will seem like a day.

That is not the Bible, That is the Word of Keras who added to the bible.

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Well, here's one thing we actually agree on. The following sure doesn't seem to indicate that they're just sleeping up there.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

nolidad said:

So the people in heaven in REv. 19 are mortals to you.

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They are not living people. They are the souls of the dead martyrs, who are allowed to cry out at times. Revelation 6:9-11

nolidad said:

That is not the Bible, That is the Word of Keras who added to the bible.

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Those who say people go to live in heaven, are the ones who have added to scripture. Not only that, but they directly contradict what Jesus said; John 3:13, John 17:15, +

nolidad said:

YOu know what I have been asking over the path of three threads now. YOur absolute refusal to simply go-" here is the part of Jeremiah, and here is where Hebrews shows it fulfilled" Says way too much about you than I wanted to have said.

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I greatly appreciate you pointing out my errors in referring you to Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, in an effort to find the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Thankyou for pointing out the weaknesses of my viewpoint.



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keras said:

But; at that time we, His people; Romans 9:24-26, WILL have His Laws written in our hearts, and we WILL know the Lord is present spiritually with us.

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Many of us hope you will eventually get the anointing found in the verse below.


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


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BABerean2 said:

Many of us hope you will eventually get the anointing found in the verse below.


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. .

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I thinketh that you and all the deniers of the Prophetic truths, may be very surprised at soon to happen events.
Nice for you to 'hope' for my anointing, but from what i gather from here and in private messages, people whose beliefs I challenge hope for a much worse outcome for me.

keras said:

I thinketh that you and all the deniers of the Prophetic truths, may be very surprised at soon to happen events.
Nice for you to 'hope' for my anointing, but from what i gather from here and in private messages, people whose beliefs I challenge hope for a much worse outcome for me.

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Any "Christian" who hopes for a worse outcome for anyone is not a true believer.


Instead, we want all to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.



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BABerean2 said:

Instead, we want all to come to the knowledge of the truth.

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Be VERY careful, then; that what you promote IS the truth!

keras said:

They are not living people. They are the souls of the dead martyrs, who are allowed to cry out at times. Revelation 6:9-11

Those who say people go to live in heaven, are the ones who have added to scripture. Not only that, but they directly contradict what Jesus said; John 3:13, John 17:15, +

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And you show your replace SCripture with your opinions by grossly misapplying the two verses you cited.

And REv. 6? that is totally your opinion an ot the bible.

Once again Paul said when you are absent from the body, you are present with the Lord.

keras said:

Be VERY careful, then; that what you promote IS the truth!

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I can find the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6-13.

That is the truth.

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BABerean2 said:

I can find the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6-13.

That is the truth..

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Really? What version has 'now' anywhere in that passage?
I checked the REB, KJV and CJB and 'now' is not in any of them.

I stand by the TRUTH that the New Covenant is yet to be made between the Lord and His faithful people.

nolidad said:

And you show your replace SCripture with your opinions by grossly misapplying the two verses you cited.

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John 3:13 and John 17:15 are the Words of Jesus. They are plain statements and any 'interpretation' of them us absolutely 'gross misapplication'.

nolidad said:

And REv. 6? that is totally your opinion an ot the bible.

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Be good if your posts were in English. Do you not bother to check what you write?
Revelation 6:12-17 is a clearly stated prophecy of how the Lord will act to correct the world, now again as it was in the days of Noah.

nolidad said:

Once again Paul said when you are absent from the body, you are present with the Lord.

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But that conflicts with many other scriptures.
It can be explained by soul sleep, where a person who dies knows nothing, Eccl 9:5-6, and their next conscious moment is they are present with the Lord; who will be seated on the Throne of Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
I suggest that unless you can find any scripture that actually says people will live in heaven, you should change your beliefs and reject the false teachings of the 'rapture'.

keras said:

Really? What version has 'now' anywhere in that passage?
I checked the REB, KJV and CJB and 'now' is not in any of them.

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Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


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BABerean2 said:

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. .

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The ESV has 'now'. It refers to His Ministry, but that doesn't mean that Covenant is now.
Hebrews 8:6 In fact the Ministry which Jesus has been given is superior to theirs, [Moses and the high Priests] for He is the Mediator of a better Covenant, based on better promises. REBible

No proof that we are in the new Covenant now. Your beliefs are wrong.

BABerean2 said:

I can find the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6-13.

That is the truth.

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And you do not know what it means!

In verse 6 it is the word "nyni" which means at this moment! and I don't disagree with this one. it is an adverb.

Then in verse 13 "now" id "de" a conjunction so that "now" (which refers to teh old covenant) means so or but or nevertheless.

All you have doen is show Jesus has obtained the ministry of mediation. Mediation is not fulfilling! Do you need me to show you again the two words from the bible "mediate" and "fulfill" and that they are not similar at all?

Still waiting for you to show me me where in, I will even expand it for you, the whole new testament where it says the new covenant is fulfilled and simply show me the NT verse and how it fuflilled teh covenant God made with the Israelis in Jer. 31:31-34


Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Or you can admit that you were given some bad teaching and that the terms of the new covenant are shown biblically, grammatically , spiritually, and historically have not yet been fulfilled. I have changed my mind many times over 46 years when someone showed me a strionger biblical argument!

nolidad said:

And you do not know what it means!

In verse 6 it is the word "nyni" which means at this moment! and I don't disagree with this one. it is an adverb.

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Hebrews 8:6

(KJV+) ButG1161 nowG3570 hath he obtainedG5177 a more excellentG1313 ministry,G3009 by how muchG3745 alsoG2532 he isG2076 the mediatorG3316 of a betterG2909 covenant,G1242 whichG3748 was establishedG3549 uponG1909 betterG2909 promises.G1860


G3570
νυνί
nuni
noo-nee'
A prolonged form of G3568 for emphasis; just now: - now.
Total KJV occurrences: 21



Hebrews 8:13

(KJV+) In that he saith,G3004 A newG2537 covenant, he hath made the first old.G3822 G3588 G4413 NowG1161 that which decayethG3822 andG2532 waxeth oldG1095 is ready to vanish away.G1451 G854


G1161
δέ
de
deh
A primary particle (adversative or continuative); but, and, etc.: - also, and, but, moreover, now [often unexpressed in English].
Total KJV occurrences: 2841


Anyone who has to re-define the word "now" to make their man-made doctrine work should really consider what they are promoting.

If your sins are not covered through the fulfillment of the New Covenant, what will happen to you if you die this week and stand before God?

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keras said:

John 3:13 and John 17:15 are the Words of Jesus. They are plain statements and any 'interpretation' of them us absolutely 'gross misapplication'.

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Yes they are the Words of Jesus and have nothing at all to do with soul sleep. Or the future church (as it had not been born yet) was not allowed access to heaven. When you bother to look at grammar- all it is saying is that up to that point, no man had ascended yet to heaven like Jesus did by first coming down!

As for JOHN 17, are you new at reading the Bible? C'mon man! This is Jesus high priestly prayer and He is praying that the Apostles would not be taken or isolated form the worlds system, but protected from the evil in the system. YOu should have learned thi sin your first year in adult Sunday school.

keras said:

Be good if your posts were in English. Do you not bother to check what you write?
Revelation 6:12-17 is a clearly stated prophecy of how the Lord will act to correct the world, now again as it was in the days of Noah.

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Well as teh Lord promised never to destroy the world again as He did in the days of Noah you are incorrect. But as far as judging the world- yes these are the first 6 of the final 21 judgments God hurls upon the earth to punish unbelievers.

keras said:

But that conflicts with many other scriptures.
It can be explained by soul sleep, where a person who dies knows nothing, Eccl 9:5-6, and their next conscious moment is they are present with the Lord; who will be seated on the Throne of Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
I suggest that unless you can find any scripture that actually says people will live in heaven, you should change your beliefs and reject the false teachings of the 'rapture'.

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So grace alone through faith should be tossed because it contradicts some OT teachings?
Eating pork contradicts OT teaching.
Marrying outside the Jewish race contradicts OT teaching.

I could go on and on abut NT truths contradict OT practices. Diffferent dispensation with different rules.

And Solomon may not have known of the immortality of the sould. It was a concept God did not reveal until right about this time. Solomon was writing truth as He knew it as it had been revealed or not revealed in this case! But using Ecclesiastes as your main reference point to support soul sleep is real shaky. Remember Eccl. is the lament of Solomon at teh end of His lefe how he had wasted it on living apart from God!

BABerean2 said:

Hebrews 8:6

(KJV+) ButG1161 nowG3570 hath he obtainedG5177 a more excellentG1313 ministry,G3009 by how muchG3745 alsoG2532 he isG2076 the mediatorG3316 of a betterG2909 covenant,G1242 whichG3748 was establishedG3549 uponG1909 betterG2909 promises.G1860


G3570
νυνί
nuni
noo-nee'
A prolonged form of G3568 for emphasis; just now: - now.
Total KJV occurrences: 21



Hebrews 8:13

(KJV+) In that he saith,G3004 A newG2537 covenant, he hath made the first old.G3822 G3588 G4413 NowG1161 that which decayethG3822 andG2532 waxeth oldG1095 is ready to vanish away.G1451 G854


G1161
δέ
de
deh
A primary particle (adversative or continuative); but, and, etc.: - also, and, but, moreover, now [often unexpressed in English].
Total KJV occurrences: 2841

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There you go, now look up mediate and fulfill and see how they have totally different meanings and write those here as well!

One does not mediate anything that is fulfilled.

nolidad said:

There you go, now look up mediate and fulfill and see how they have totally different meanings and write those here as well!

One does not mediate anything that is fulfilled.

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Are you expecting Christ to be crucified again in the future, in order to shed His blood a second time?



Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Do you think Christ was confused in the verse above?

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BABerean2 said:

Are you expecting Christ to be crucified again in the future, in order to shed His blood a second time?



Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Do you think Christ was confused in the verse above?

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NO but that doesn't mean He fulfilled the New covenant . It means that He paid the price for all sin ! He no longer needs to be crucified.

But re-read slowly and word by word the promise of Jeremiah 31:31-34:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


If you believe this new Covenant as declared by god is fulfilled (completed) then you are a two people of God believer because all Jews know God now and we gentiles have to hear and believe th egospel.

nolidad said:

If you believe this new Covenant as declared by god is fulfilled (completed) then you are a two people of God believer because all Jews know God now and we gentiles have to hear and believe th egospel.

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You are ignoring what Paul said about the "remnant" of Israel in Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:1-5, if you are claiming a day is coming when all Jews will come to salvation.

Why do you have to ignore what Paul said to make your doctrine work?


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