In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

rjs330 · Jan 15, 2021

SilverBear said:
orientation isn't a disease or an addiction or even an infliction. What you are saying is no different from the horrific abuse inflicted on children you called disgusting

It's a sin and all sin is hideous and an infliction. Lying, stealing, adultery, homosexuality, drunkeness are all evil in God's eyes. Yet he loves us anyway. But his love for us does not allow us to practice such things. Those thing separate us from him. We can't practice any of them and inherit his kingdom. Orientation is no different than any other sinful behavior that separates us from God. But it is one sin that is very difficult to overcome. Not all sins are equal in their hold upon a person. Some bury themselves so deep in our hearts and minds that they are a battle to overcome. While others can drop off line a blanket. But they all separate us from God. Homosexuals on not lost because they are homosexuals. They are lost because they have rejected Christ just like every other nonbeliever. Homosexuals are NOT worse than anyone else. All have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God. Homosexuals are just one of those that have sinned and fallen short. God simply sees all men as condemned already due to their sin. Jesus came to save us from our sin whatever it is.

parousia70 · Jan 15, 2021

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Do you support this law if it does call for not preaching to homosexual s specifically in the effort to convert them to a Christian (dare I say Catholic) standard?

What does that mean? Are we preaching to them for the salvation of their soul, or simply to get them to conform their physical actions into actions we don't deem "icky"?

Again, I find it quite creepy, the obsession with making sure other people don't put their willy somewhere we don't want them to.

Your own Church (to your shame?) says homosexuality is intrinsically disordered. Why would you advocate against your own Church?

I don't.
The Individual Conscience of the Individual Catholic, according to Church Doctrine, is the FINAL arbiter for the individual Catholic in making ones own, personal moral decisions. CCC#1800

It is our own conscience, according to the Church, that has the final say and we Catholics are obligated to follow it.

rjs330 · Jan 15, 2021

Dave L said:
Be wise as serpents, harmless as doves. God changes hearts, not you. Plus you need to condemn all the adultery in the churches to be consistent.

I certainly hope we do.

parousia70 · Jan 15, 2021

rjs330 said:
Homosexuals are NOT worse than anyone else. All have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God. Homosexuals are just one of those that have sinned and fallen short. God simply sees all men as condemned already due to their sin. Jesus came to save us from our sin whatever it is.

Bingo!
There is no sin powerful enough to ward off the salvific power of the cross.
sin is no longer the measuring stick God uses to determine who is saved and who isn't.
In fact, it's only sinners that get saved.
100%

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jan 15, 2021

parousia70 said:
What does that mean? Are we preaching to them for the salvation of their soul, or simply to get them to conform their physical actions into actions we don't deem "icky"?

Again, I find it quite creepy, the obsession with making sure other people don't put their willy somewhere we don't ant them to.

Regarding the bold first, why are you Catholic then? For 2000 years that Church has had an 'obsession' with that very thing. It would appear you think her wrong for trying to constrain sexual expression into limited avenues.

Regarding the first paragraph: it's a simple question. Do you support this law limiting the rights of Christians to preach to certain people? Or do you think Christians should be forbidden to preach to certain people?

Answer the question please since that is the topic of discussion. As an American I would have thought you would support the freedom of speech of people, especially those you disagree with.

parousia70 said:
I don't.
The Individual Conscience of the Individual Catholic, according to Church Doctrine, is the FINAL arbiter for the individual Catholic in making ones own, personal moral decisions. CCC#1800

It is our own conscience, according to the Church, that has the final say and we Catholics are obligated to follow it.

How Protestant. Luther would be proud. Though I suspect even Luther would try to rein you in and say that the Catholic Church is right about homosexuality. Your conscience, when compared to a 2000 year old consistent tradition, is probably not the best guide on this matter.

BNR32FAN · Jan 15, 2021

parousia70 said:
Which likewise applies to those who continue to overeat, or smoke cigarettes, or lie, or cheat on their taxes, etc....

Absolutely Correct.
The unrepentant heterosexual glutton or unrepentant heterosexual cigarette smoker ends up in the same lake of fire right next to the unrepentant homosexual.

Well I’m not sure about cigarette smokers but yeah that’s the basic teachings in the scriptures. I’m not aware of any actual scriptures condemning smoking.

BNR32FAN · Jan 15, 2021

parousia70 said:
Bingo!
There is no sin powerful enough to ward off the salvific power of the cross.
sin is no longer the measuring stick God uses to determine who is saved and who isn't.
In fact, it's only sinners that get saved.
100%

Yeah this sounds exactly like the type Jesus was referring to in Matthew 7:21-27.

rjs330 · Jan 15, 2021

parousia70 said:
The thing is, I don't consider strapping someone to a chair, playing homoerotic videos while I electrically shock their genitals as "preaching".....

Necessarily?

God doesn't want us Defending the Free will he gave us?

If you read scripture God continually condemns those who use free will to sin. Non-believers have no free will. They are sinners bound by sin. They are condemned be cause they sin all the time. Can they choose at times not to commit a particular sin? Sure. But they still sin in many ways and thus are condemned because they have rejected Christ for wickedness. That's the essence of free will.

Believers accept we are sinners have have repented of our sin and accepted Christ for salvation. Not because we earned it. It fact believers still sin. But we also continuously repent of sin and ask for forgiveness because we know it's wrong. We DESIRE to lead a life with holiness.

The unbeliever doesn't care.

nolidad · Jan 15, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
In Victoria (Australia), the Andrews Government is trying to pass laws that will make it a criminal offence to try to convert a gay to a heterosexual lifestyle. The law specifically mentions prayer and religious practices. The way the law is worded allows for the prosecution and re-educating of people who try with or without the consent of the individual to help a gay become straight. The following video explains the law and its potential effects on the church.

To see the law:

https://content.legislation.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-12/591143bab1.pdf

The law bans practices that try to convert gays, and gives fines, heavy fines to people found to have caused harm to an individual during such a practice. Up to $500,000 or 10 years jail (serious harm). More commonly $100,000 or 5 years jail (general harm). However, the definition of harm, is broad, encompassing parents continual disapproval of onces choice, and mental health issues.

It would not be hard for a gay activist to claim harm, which can be short term harm, to mental health.

Advertising material is referenced in the bill, so basically it could be a criminal offense to have a website that encouraged the heterosexual lifestyle for a gay person. This is all under the banner of protecting the rights of gays to feel included, but it targets the church for condenation.

Well we are living in the last days so it should not come as a surprise that laws like this are popping up.

SilverBear · Jan 15, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Why are they even relevant? No one is forced to receive any therapy or treatment of any kind for being homosexual. So any methods that are used are used in compliance with the patients consent.

the majority of individuals in conversion therapy are children

SilverBear · Jan 15, 2021

parousia70 said:
Seems to me that anyone who would desire to have someone watch homoerotic images while inducing physical harm to them is the one who is truly suffering from unresolved demonic Homoerotic desires.

girls are just as likely to be on the receiving end of such therapy

SilverBear · Jan 15, 2021

rjs330 said:
It's a sin and all sin is hideous and an infliction. Lying, stealing, adultery, homosexuality, drunkeness are all evil in God's eyes. Yet he loves us anyway. But his love for us does not allow us to practice such things. Those thing separate us from him. We can't practice any of them and inherit his kingdom. Orientation is no different than any other sinful behavior that separates us from God. But it is one sin that is very difficult to overcome. Not all sins are equal in their hold upon a person. Some bury themselves so deep in our hearts and minds that they are a battle to overcome. While others can drop off line a blanket. But they all separate us from God. Homosexuals on not lost because they are homosexuals. They are lost because they have rejected Christ just like every other nonbeliever. Homosexuals are NOT worse than anyone else. All have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God. Homosexuals are just one of those that have sinned and fallen short. God simply sees all men as condemned already due to their sin. Jesus came to save us from our sin whatever it is.

orientation includes heterosexuality as well.

Should a five year old caught in a lie be subjected to the same sort of sadistic torture that a five year old perceived to be homosexual?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jan 15, 2021

SilverBear said:
orientation includes heterosexuality as well.

Should a five year old caught in a lie be subjected to the same sort of sadistic torture that a five year old perceived to be homosexual?

Do you think that gays should be protected legally from having Christians preach to them?

SilverBear · Jan 15, 2021

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Regarding the bold first, why are you Catholic then? For 2000 years that Church has had an 'obsession' with that very thing. It would appear you think her wrong for trying to constrain sexual expression into limited avenues.

Regarding the first paragraph: it's a simple question. Do you support this law limiting the rights of Christians to preach to certain people? Or do you think Christians should be forbidden to preach to certain people?

emotional, verbal, spiritual and physical abuse is preaching?

SilverBear · Jan 15, 2021

nolidad said:
Well we are living in the last days so it should not come as a surprise that laws like this are popping up.

yes laws protecting people from horrific abuse are terrible things

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jan 15, 2021

SilverBear said:
emotional, verbal, spiritual and physical abuse is preaching?

Depends by what you mean by abuse. I see atheists argue from time to time that raising children in the Christian faith is abuse. One person's discipline is another's abuse and it is often difficult to differentiate between the two. You might not like monastic discipline or military discipline, but it is abusive? How do you define abuse? Is being told you cannot do something abuse?

Still, if the idea is that Christians cannot tell homosexuals they must not engage in homosexual activities and that alone counts as abuse, then I would consider that preaching. Would you consider outlawing such a practice like this law in Victoria seems to encourage?

SilverBear · Jan 15, 2021

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Do you think that gays should be protected legally from having Christians preach to them?

abuse is preaching?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jan 15, 2021

SilverBear said:
abuse is preaching?

Define abuse.

SilverBear · Jan 15, 2021

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Depends by what you mean by abuse.

“Hold therapy” is almost exclusively done with children. The child is physically restrained while the therapist screams at them and encourages the child’s parents to express their hatred and disgust for the child. Parents are pushed to hit, slap or kick the child. This will continue until the child admits that they are hurting their family and that they hate themselves for being gay.
Ref: Bright, C. "Deconstructing Reparative Therapy: An Examination of the Processes Involved When Attempting to Change Sexual Orientation. 2014

The APA investigation (Report of the APA Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation 2009) into conversion therapies found that the majority of such practices inclided at least one of the following: inducing nausea or vomiting
inducing paralysis while showing the patient homoerotic images
providing electric shocks to genitals
having the individual snap an elastic band around the wrist when aroused by same-sex erotic images or thoughts
using shame to create aversion to same-sex attractions
orgasmic reconditioning
"Satiation therapy" (forced masturbation for long periods of time, hours coupled with homoerotic stimulation coupled with the striking of genitals by the therapist)

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jan 15, 2021

SilverBear said:
“Hold therapy” is almost exclusively done with children. The child is physically restrained while the therapist screams at them and encourages the child’s parents to express their hatred and disgust for the child. Parents are pushed to hit, slap or kick the child. This will continue until the child admits that they are hurting their family and that they hate themselves for being gay.
Ref: Bright, C. "Deconstructing Reparative Therapy: An Examination of the Processes Involved When Attempting to Change Sexual Orientation. 2014

The APA investigation (Report of the APA Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation 2009) into conversion therapies found that the majority of such practices inclided at least one of the following: inducing nausea or vomiting
inducing paralysis while showing the patient homoerotic images
providing electric shocks to genitals
having the individual snap an elastic band around the wrist when aroused by same-sex erotic images or thoughts
sing shame to create aversion to same-sex attractions
orgasmic reconditioning
"Satiation therapy" (forced masturbation for long periods of time, hours coupled with homoerotic stimulation coupled with the striking of genitals by the therapist)

Alright but I'm not concerned with that. I'm concerned with preaching. Something that people of your position are ignoring. Do you think Christians should be forbidden from preaching to homosexuals about their need to be sexually pure or if they suggest homosexuality is wrong?

In Australia Vic Government trying to pass laws that criminalise preaching

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