Do you believe in Creationism or Evolutionism?

Are you a Creationist as per the OP definition.. a literal 7 day week of creation. Gen 1?

  • yes

    Votes: 21 35.6%
  • yes but I think that the entire galaxy as well as Earth, Sun and moon were created in those 7 days

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes but I think the entire universe was created in in those 7 literal days

    Votes: 9 15.3%
  • yes - but the Bible is wrong

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • yes - but I mix evolution with it in some way

    Votes: 1 1.7%
  • No - but since I believe the Bible I think of this as a kind of creationism

    Votes: 7 11.9%
  • No - creationism is wrong, the Bible is wrong, I believe evolution is the real truth

    Votes: 3 5.1%
  • other

    Votes: 18 30.5%

  • Total voters
    59

BobRyan

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Only AFTER creation, but not during.

there is no case in the Bible where evening-and-morning is not a 24 hour day.
Ex 20:11 places the 24 hour day of Sinai = to the day in Gen 1:3-2:4

To insert something else for reasons outside of the text and the obvious meaning to the the readers - the primary contemporary readers, would be a form of eisegesis.
 
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1an

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there is no case in the Bible where evening-and-morning is not a 24 hour day.
Ex 20:11 places the 24 hour day of Sinai = to the day in Gen 1:3-2:4

To insert something else for reasons outside of the text and the obvious meaning to the the readers - the primary contemporary readers is a form of eisegesis.
Correct. But not for creation.
 
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BobRyan

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Correct. But not for creation.

That is a parameter/limit you are inserting no text argues the case and Ex 20:8-11 specifically refutes it. "Six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord made"..

Same author, same audience, same context.. and we all know that Moses was no darwinist.
 
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BobRyan

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I am saying there wasn't a calendar at the time of creation.
.

Are you saying that because you think that with no humans there and no calendar that the rotation of planet Earth would not be the same during a single "Evening and morning" in Genesis 1??
 
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1an

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That is a parameter/limit you are inserting no text argues the case and Ex 20:8-11 specifically refutes it. "Six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord made"..

Same author, same audience, same context.. and we all know that Moses was no darwinist.
They are our days in this era.
 
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BobRyan

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They are our days in this era.

Ex 20 says they are the same as the days at Sinai "Six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord made"..

do you think the Bible teaches that earth rotated slower back then?
 
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I think we both agree with that point.

My point is that they affirm all ten of the ten commandments in their documents including the Sabbath commandment as being included (though edited to point to week-day-1). They don't claim that some people think it was saturday and some think it was sunday -- rather they agree it was saturday as given in the Bible and that what the Bible calls the first day of the week upon which Jesus was raised from the dead -- is what we call Sunday... so that still makes the 7th day Saturday.

My initial point was not about which day is what -- just that all ten of the ten commandments are included in the moral law of God according to the Bible and agreed to by groups on both sides of the topic as noted in my signature line.

Again, they do not agree that the Saturday Sabbath still applies. This means they do not believe that the keeping of the 4th commandment applies today. So this demolishes any concept that they endorse the 10 in the same way that the SDA church does. Catholics don't regard the 10 like the SDA church because they worship on Sunday and not Saturday. But I do not agree with Catholicism because I feel that many of their practices are unbiblical. I believe Jesus is our Sabbath rest now and we can worship God on any day. Granted, the church gathered on Sunday, and if that is possible for a church to do, it is a good thing indeed. But there are no Saturday Sabbath commands given to us in the New Testament after the cross. There is no sin listed as Sabbath breaking listed among the other sins that Paul, and John mention in NT Scripture, as well.
 
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eleos1954

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Only AFTER creation, but not during.

7th DAY Sabbath .... a special day the Lord created .... part of creation. He created it as a day of rest (a day .... not some "unknown or claimed long time-frame").

Genesis 2:2
And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work.

Hebrews 4:10

New Living Translation
For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world.

Mark 2:27
English Standard Version
And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Genesis 2:2
And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
 
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1an

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7th DAY Sabbath .... a special day the Lord created .... part of creation. He created it as a day of rest (a day .... not some "unknown or claimed long time-frame").

Genesis 2:2
And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work.

Hebrews 4:10

New Living Translation
For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world.

Mark 2:27
English Standard Version
And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Genesis 2:2
And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
God rested on the seventh day and God is still resting. This will give you an idea of how long the days of creation were.
.
 
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I am back.

I believe God created the earth, the ball of dirt and rock beneath the creation probably outside of time. I think trying to date it is pointless and that it probably gives off a very inaccurate age. It could be young, it could be old, perhaps age is the wrong question to even be asking, perhaps if it was made outside of time and is both young and ancient at the same time. I believe it sat like that, empty and void for as long as God wanted it to sit. A millisecond or 4 billion years does not bother me. If it was made in time there is nothing to say it didn't sit void for a very long time or a very short time. I see no reason why the rock can't be a different age to the creation upon it.

I then believe God started creating and in producing the light started time upon the earth. The creation was complete within 6 days.

I believe Adam, Eve, the garden, the fall and the global flood was literal.

I believe in no death (people and animals with a soul) before sin and that the garden and perfection there was a sample to mankind of what the new earth will be like. I also believe God created it knowing it would last a very short time.
I don't see how a fall into sin and death or the spirit is possible with any form of evolution.

I have very little thoughts on the shape of the earth but from seeing the roundness of the moon I believe it is round. I honestly don't believe the shape is important.

I believe there was one single creation upon the earth and there will be one literal remake of it by fire. I believe what happened early shows a shadow or a muddy picture of what is to come. Like a folded painting I believe it is patterned from Old to New Testament. Adam was tempted and fell into sin -Jesus was tempted and did not sin. The Israelite's put lambs blood on the doorpost -Jesus is the lamb of the world who gave his blood for all. This is yet another reason why I don't believe in evolution. It simply does not fit into this pattern. If the end is a perfect world, for me the start must have also been a 'perfect world'.

I believe the creation on the earth is anywhere from 6-15 thousand years old. I don't follow James Usher. I don't think a person has to adhere strictly to 6 thousand years to be a young earth creationist. The man had doctrine I disagree with so I don't feel he is as trustworthy as many people think he is. I don't think the Bible is meant to be used like a calculator. However many thousands of years old the creation is, I believe it is relatively young.

Yes, I agree. You cannot have evolution without death, and death is a result of sin coming into this world via through Adam.

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” (Romans 5:12).

For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

Unfortunately, many would rather believe in “Science so falsely called” rather than the Bible in this instance.
 
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Isilwen

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I chose "other". I believe that God created the universe and the species that inhabit Earth over a very long span of time, using the mechanisms generally agreed upon by astronomers, physicists, geologists, and evolutionary biologists.

This^
 
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BobRyan

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Again, they do not agree that the Saturday Sabbath still applies.

No doubt as already agreed they believe the commandment is now 'edited' to point to week-day-1. That is different that "deleted" or "Ten commandments no longer valid" etc. They also agree that the Lord's day as given in the Bible was Saturday and both refer to the same thing so now the "Sabbath obligation" is fulfilled by week-day-1 observance.

This means their actual text says the insist the Ten Commandments are still valid today.

This means they do not believe that the keeping of the 4th commandment applies today.

Well...lets read "Their words" for what they believe in that case.

=======================================================
Dies Domini pt 11

"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".


Dies Domini pt 13 -
"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.

Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."


==============================

The Faith Explained” by Leo J. Trese
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II

1965 -- first published 1959
(from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...


nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholics who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church”

================

Catholic Catechism

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."


" 2172 God's action is the model for human action. If God "rested and was refreshed" on the seventh day, man ought to "rest" and should let others especially the poor, "be refreshed." the Sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is the day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.


" 2173 the Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the Sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of the day. He gives this law its authentic and authoritative interpretation: ' the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.' with compassion, Christ declares the Sabbath for doing good rather than harm, for saving life rather than killing. The Sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honor God. ' the son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.'
 
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BobRyan

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God rested on the seventh day and God is still resting. This will give you an idea of how long the days of creation were.
.

Ex 20:8-11 says it is a 7 day cycle. God allowed work on the 6 days -- showing that they were not simply stuck in the 7th day at that point.

Jesus said He and His Father are currently working. John 5:17 But He answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working.

Is 66:23 says for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth - that same 7 day cycle exists "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

Acts 18:4 says Paul met "every Sabbath" with both Jews and gentiles preaching the Gospel
 
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eleos1954

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God rested on the seventh day and God is still resting. This will give you an idea of how long the days of creation were.
.

The Hebrew word yom and its plural form yamim are used over 1900 times in the Old Testament. . . . the two-hundred plus occurrences of yom preceded by ordinals all refer to a normal twenty-four hour day. Furthermore, the seven-hundred plus appearances of yamim always refer to a regular day (evening and morning).

yom ... evening and morning ... one day

The Lord created the 7th day ... as a day of rest for mankind .... blessed it and made it holy. The 7th day Sabbath is ONE day (per week)

He made the 7th day for MAN to rest from his labor (apart from) the other six literal days.

Exodus 31:15
For six days work may be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must surely be put to death.

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

Exodos 20

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Obviously referring back to creation ... the 7th DAY.

Mark 2:27
New International Version
Then he (Jesus) said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
 
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pshun2404

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Certainly it is true that "mutations do happen".

but a prokaryote will never turn into a eukaryote over time -- and we have direct observations of more than 75,000 generations to prove it ... the Bible is stating observable fact as it turns out... :)

Definitely a verified fact...add to that the fact that in the actual Geo-culumn each new Species suddenly appears fully formed (with all parts of its interactive and interdependent subsystems developed, functional, and in place)...so nothing supports Archaea becoming prokaryotes which later became eukaryotes and so on...

Also, the YEC positition is supported by the Rabbinical system but that was not authoritative until returning from the Babylonian Captivity during which they developed many "traditions" and views that rendered the true meaning of scripture to less than their traditions. In light of that I see it entirely probable that soome 5000 to 5500 years ago when most people were hearers only the concept of movement from evening to morning may simply have meant a period of darkness to a period of light which could speak to development even entrance into a new level of order and not a literal 24 hour period at all (the Sun not being created until the 4th "day", and the 24 hour "day" interpretation being based on measuring according to that standard). So if we are talking evening and morning from God's standard this could be any length of time.
 
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1an

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The Hebrew word yom and its plural form yamim are used over 1900 times in the Old Testament. . . . the two-hundred plus occurrences of yom preceded by ordinals all refer to a normal twenty-four hour day. Furthermore, the seven-hundred plus appearances of yamim always refer to a regular day (evening and morning).

yom ... evening and morning ... one day

The Lord created the 7th day ... as a day of rest for mankind .... blessed it and made it holy. The 7th day Sabbath is ONE day (per week)

He made the 7th day for MAN to rest from his labor (apart from) the other six literal days.

Exodus 31:15
For six days work may be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of complete rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must surely be put to death.

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.

Exodos 20

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Obviously referring back to creation ... the 7th DAY.

Mark 2:27
New International Version
Then he (Jesus) said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
A thousand years is as a day in the sight of the Lord. God's time is different from our time. It takes thousands of years for light to reach us from the stars and when Abram looked up at the stars in the heavens, the earth was already millions of years old. Take care.
.
 
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eleos1954

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A thousand years is as a day in the sight of the Lord. God's time is different from our time. It takes thousands of years for light to reach us from the stars and when Abram looked up at the stars in the heavens, the earth was already millions of years old. Take care.
.

Each day of creation in Genesis 1 is marked by ‘evening’ and ‘morning’, so it is impossible to stretch the days out to thousands/millions of years ... or anything that is NOT evening and the morning.

It says what it says.

evening and the morning!

You take care.
 
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