Another take on the Rapture

keras

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You avoided the basic question. But on the one hand, you claimed He doesn't return with His saints, but then say that He only comes with some, so that's a bit of progress. But yes, they are coming with Him, and where is He coming from again? Right, Heaven.

This one verse smacks down your insistence that He arrives only with His angels, and also that those who die in Christ don't go to heaven. I just don't think you have the humility to consider the implications.
Revelation 20:4 is quite clear; Only the souls of the martyrs killed during the GT, will be brought back by Jesus. They are dead people who will be resurrected after Jesus Returns.
He will only be accompanied by His angel army.

Humility? Yes I would be humbled if you could prove the rapture. But you can't.
The whole idea of people going to live in heaven, is unscriptural and just a comic book, sci-fi fantasy. Actually that is unfair to that genra, as they do not present their stories as real or could actually happen.
But the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, is something that millions have been sucked in to believe will really take place. That there is an ongoing argument about when it could happen and who will be taken, doesn't seem to raise any red flags about its truth or not.
 
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JLHargus

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Kertas: The word 'ALL', is not in 1 Thess 4:16. Thinking that prophecy of Pauls does mean all the Christians, is a serious error. Proved wrong by Revelation 20:4, which specifies that only the martyrs killed during the GT will be resurrected when Jesus Returns. The whole 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory, is not Biblical and will never happen. Jesus will Return accompanied only by His angel army. Matthew 16:27

JL: True the word “All” is not in [1Thes4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:]k

What does 1Thess4:16 say? THE DEAD IN CHRIST, RISE first. How many dead in Christ rise when Christ returns in 1Thes4:16? Answer ALL OF THEM in Christ. Every dead person IN CHRIST from Adam to those caught up with Christ in 1Thes4. 1Thes4 never implies only some rise.

[1Thes4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.]k

Kertas: Thinking that prophecy of Pauls does mean all the Christians, is a serious error. Proved wrong by Revelation 20:4, which specifies that only the martyrs killed during the GT will be resurrected when Jesus Returns.

JL: [Rev20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.]k

Rev20:4 only proves your interpretation is not correct. 1Thes4:16 certainly doesn’t specify only martyrs are raised, it specifies the dead in Christ rise. That would be all the dead in Christ not some.
 
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keras

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Rev20:4 only proves your interpretation is not correct. 1Thes4:16 certainly doesn’t specify only martyrs are raised, it specifies the dead in Christ rise. That would be all the dead in Christ not some.
Sad really, how some must twist and add to the prophesies in order to support their beliefs.
Revelation 20:4-5 is plain and unequivocal: ONLY the dead martyrs; those killed by the 'beast', will be raised at Jesus Return.
The rest of the dead, Godly and wicked, do not come to life again until the thousand years is over. At the GWT Judgment; Revelation 20:11-15
 
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JLHargus

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Original post by JL: Rev20:4 only proves your interpretation is not correct. 1Thes4:16 certainly doesn’t specify only martyrs are raised, it specifies the dead in Christ rise. That would be all the dead in Christ not some.

Kertas: Sad really, how some must twist and add to the prophesies in order to support their beliefs. Revelation 20:4-5 is plain and unequivocal: ONLY the dead martyrs; those killed by the ‘beast’, will be raised at Jesus Return. The rest of the dead, Godly and wicked, do not come to life again until the thousand years is over. At the GWT Judgment; Revelation 20:11-15

JL: Yes, sad how some twist and add to prophesies to support their beliefs. Even more sad is using insults to draw attention from the fact your interpretation of Rev20:4-5, ONLY martyrs killed in the tribulation rise, contradicts 1Thess4:16 THE DEAD IN CHRIST, RISE first. How many dead in Christ rise when Christ returns in 1Thes4:16? Answer ALL OF THEM in Christ, at His coming in 1Thes4. Every dead person IN CHRIST from Adam to those caught up with Christ in 1Thes4:13-18. 1Thes4:13-18 doesn’t remotely imply ONLY dead martyrs in Christ rise.

[1Thes4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.]k

How many dead in Christ will God bring with Him, verse14? Answer: Not some dead in Christ but the dead in Christ. That would be all the dead in Christ. That rules out ONLY those martyred in the tribulation. [1Thes4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:]k

[1Cor15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?]k

[Rev20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.]

I see no evidence in Rev20:4-5 that supports your interpretation. Could you post those plain and unequivocal verses in Rev20:4-5 that ONLY dead martyrs; killed by the beast, will be raised at Jesus’ return as in 1Thes4:13-17? Also post how I twisted scripture?
 
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keras

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How many dead in Christ will God bring with Him, verse14? Answer: Not some dead in Christ but the dead in Christ. That would be all the dead in Christ. That rules out ONLY those martyred in the tribulation.
So, to maintain your belief; you prefer to make a Bible anomaly, two scriptures that cause a Bible contradiction?
1 Thess 4:16 does NOT say 'all', just; the dead in Christ will rise....
Will they be everyone who had become a Christian?
That's a huge number of people and how can this happen before any Judgment?

Will they be all the martyrs killed since Stephen?
No, because they are told to wait until their number is completed. Revelation 6:11
Which won't be until the end of the Millennium.

Will they be only those martyrs killed during the GT?
Yes, because that is what Revelation 20:4 plainly tells us. Read it in any version you like, they all say the same: ONLY those who refused the mark of the beast or worship his image and were killed, will be raised when Jesus Returns.
THEY have proved themselves by standing strong in their faith unto death, their names are set into the Book of Life and if they do die again, as Lazarus did, over them; Death has no power and they will automatically receive immortality at the GWT Judgment.
 
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FredVB

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None are of Israel if they are not observing commandments meant for Israel. Where it is written, all Israel will be saved, it is in the context of passages where Paul lamented that Jews around him, his fellow countrymen, of his time were not responsive to come to God with hearing the gospel. It is consistent with a remnant will be all that is left of Israel, it is all of them who would be saved. It isn't saying Christian believers are all going to be saved, Israel in the context is not about Christian believers but Israel which had been rejecting the promised Christ. In these passages Christian believers do not need to be told that they are going to be saved, of course they are as so many passages show adequately anyway.

jgr said:
All of the remnant will be saved.
Not all of the nation.

Davy said:
Might want to study the end of Zechariah 12 and what Jesus said in Luke 24 about 'blessed are the barren'.
ALL must... confess Christ Jesus as God The Saviour. Not all will believe on Him and be saved, but ALL will confess Him, as written. The question is when will everyone that can be saved, will be saved?
In Rom.11 Paul told us that God Himself blinded his brethren the Jews away from The Gospel. So how can they be held accountable while that blindness is upon them?? The Scriptures those who don't understand that need to study is about the future coming of Christ, and in what state those will appear in once they realize Who they rejected. And then consider, how many of them will believe on Him then.
We, Christ's Church, certainly do NOT have authority to condemn the unbelieving Jews to perish. That is Christ's decision only.
Therefore, those who push 'hate' against the unbelieving Jews today represent a group of suspects that Christ's Church needs to be wary of, because that act is a pushing of strife that could lead to things even worse against the Church.

With all the relevant passages in the Bible taken into account, not all but only a remnant of the people of Israel, in the future, will be rescued, the rest will perish. Only the remnant will be left of those of Israel. After this, who is all of Israel? It will be that remnant, all of those of Israel in the whole world. And all of them will be saved. The scriptures mean that. All the passages are taken into account.
 
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BABerean2

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With all the relevant passages in the Bible taken into account, not all but only a remnant of the people of Israel, in the future, will be rescued, the rest will perish. Only the remnant will be left of those of Israel. After this, who is all of Israel? It will be that remnant, all of those of Israel in the whole world. And all of them will be saved. The scriptures mean that. All the passages are taken into account.

Which Israel are you talking about?

Are you talking about the 3,000 Israelites converted on the Day of Pentecost?

Are you talking about the Israel found in Romans 11:1, which was Paul after his conversion?

Are you talking about the Israel found in James 1:1-3, where James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes", who were his "brethren" in the "faith"?

The ultimate fulfillment of Israel is found in Matthew 1:1, as confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.


Pastor Chuck Baldwin exposes the counterfeit in the message below.
A Counterfeit Temple; A Counterfeit Israel - Bible Study by Chuck Baldwin on Feb. 1, 2017 - YouTube

.
 
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keras

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I still think we should make all the preparations right away, changes are really coming quickly, which we can be aware of.
Yes; we are now right at the edge of dramatic events.
The Lord's Day of fiery vengeance and wrath is coming, but people will be saying peace and security, then sudden destruction will come. 1 Thess 5:3

BTW; I wonder if JTHargus changed his mind? See posts 362 to 365
 
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TribulationSigns

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Yes; we are now right at the edge of dramatic events.
The Lord's Day of fiery vengeance and wrath is coming, but people will be saying peace and security, then sudden destruction will come. 1 Thess 5:3

Well, what peace and safely did God actually talked about here?

Is it peace as the world defines it or God? Read the verses carefully:

Jeremiah 6:13-15
  • "For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
  • They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
  • Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD."
It is a false healing, a healing wherein the prophets come forth to deceive and to deal treacherously with the people. The kingdom of Satan comes up into the Church with a false hope of a salvation plan that will not save. Again:

1st Thessalonians 5:3
  • "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
This is the woman, the Church that thinks she has peace with God and safety from His judgments when she is as far from peace and safety as light is from the darkness.

This has NOTHING to do with world peace or peace between enemies on Earth. Rather it is God's unfaithful congregation that no longer have true peace and safely in Christ, instead she is being judged with false prophets who brings false peace and safety.
 
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keras

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1st Thessalonians 5:3
  • "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
This is the woman, the Church that thinks she has peace with God and safety from His judgments when she is as far from peace and safety as light is from the darkness.
The 'they' in the verse above, cannot refer to the Church. Paul goes on to say; But you my friends, [the Christians] ....that day will not surprise you.
The 'woman with child' is just used as an example of the pain and anguish experienced by all at that time.

They; are obviously the people that the sudden destruction will fall upon; the Lords enemies, the attackers of Israel, as prophesied in Psalms 83, +
 
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TribulationSigns

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The 'they' in the verse above, cannot refer to the Church. Paul goes on to say; But you my friends, [the Christians] ....that day will not surprise you.
The 'woman with child' is just used as an example of the pain and anguish experienced by all at that time.

They; are obviously the people that the sudden destruction will fall upon; the Lords enemies, the attackers of Israel, as prophesied in Psalms 83, +

Incorrect, as usual. Premillennialists typically use Psalms 83 to build a doctrine about the "attacks" that you see as "sudden destruction" from the surrounding nations upon the modern nation of Israel which was NOT what God talked about. Not going to discuss Psalms 83 since you are obviously confused.

Anyway, Paul was saying that the Elect won't be surprised when they see the judgment of the harlot. Remember, there are two groups of God's people within his congregation. One is Elect. One is professed Christians. Likewise:

Mat 24:19-21
(19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
(20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

God did not talk about physical tribulation for the Jews in Israel but the judgment of His New Testament congregation where some people are being deceived by false prophets and christs according to the context. It is about God's people within his congregation (picture of a woman who was supposed to feed with milk (gospel)) and her child the children of the congregation. The professed Christians no longer receive the True Gospel coming out of the unfaithful woman. This is the Judgment God is talking about. Too bad that you cannot see this sign like the foolish virgin of Matthew 25, because you are deceived to believe that prophecies are all about national Israel instead of God's New Testament congregation.
 
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keras

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because you are deceived to believe that prophecies are all about national Israel instead of God's New Testament congregation.
This is wrong.
I do believe we Christians are who the Prophesies are for.
The Jewish State of Israel will be wiped out along with all the Islamic nations and entities in the Middle East, by the Lord's Day of fiery Wrath. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Romans 9:27

The rest of your post is speculative nonsense.
 
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TribulationSigns

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This is wrong.
I do believe we Christians are who the Prophesies are for.
The Jewish State of Israel will be wiped out along with all the Islamic nations and entities in the Middle East, by the Lord's Day of fiery Wrath. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Romans 9:27

The rest of your post is speculative nonsense.

LOL.

Have fun with your false interpretations in the Middle East. You got wrong Israel to begin with.
 
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FredVB

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I still think we should make all the preparations right away, changes are really coming quickly, which we can be aware of.

keras said:
Yes; we are now right at the edge of dramatic events.
The Lord's Day of fiery vengeance and wrath is coming, but people will be saying peace and security, then sudden destruction will come. 1 Thess 5:3

BTW; I wonder if JTHargus changed his mind? See posts 362 to 365

There is Yahweh's judgment on those of the world without repentance for the wickedness and the destructiveness to God's creation that belongs to God, this earth, Revelation 11:18. There are still great troubles we will go through right away, we are about to see it. Mystery Babylon will collapse and fall, believers are really not supposed to be there and remaining there with it. And great tribulations will come afterward, with one who is to be recognized as a beast in prophetic scriptures will lead many with the promise of one last restoration of civilization, following his lead, which will be fully godless.
 
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FredVB

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Jeremiah 31:31-37
“Behold, the days come,” says Yahweh, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of mine they broke, although I was a husband to them,” says Yahweh. “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” says Yahweh. “I will put my law in their inward parts, and I will write it in their heart. I will be their God, and they shall be my people. They will no longer each teach his neighbor, and every man teach his brother, saying, ‘Know Yahweh;’ for they will all know me, from their least to their greatest,” says Yahweh, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
Yahweh, who gives the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirs up the sea, so that its waves roar, Yahweh of Armies is his name, says, “If these ordinances depart from before me,” says Yahweh, “then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before me forever.” Yahweh says: “If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done,” says Yahweh.

Hebrews 8
We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says Yahweh, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says Yahweh. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know Yahweh,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 10
For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Therefore, when He came into the world, He said, “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come. In the volume of the book it is written of Me to do Your will, O God.’ ”
Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says Yahweh: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says Yahweh. And again, “Yahweh will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
“For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”
But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Romans 11:1-28
I say, has God cast away His people?Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written:
“God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day.”
And David says, “Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a recompense to them. Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always.”
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who arenatural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”
Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

The people of Israel had the promise of the new covenant and they would remain a nation before Yahweh God. The new covenant is fulfilled through Christ who was promised to them. The sacrifices through Christ are effective, and alone effective, the sacrifices of animals never were, but they were pointing to the effectice sacrifice needed for atonement, that from God, accomplished through Christ having come, shedding his blood and dying, that it accomplishes what is needed for believers, those of the people of Israel and those of other people then grafted in, for being effectively cleaned for appearing before God, to come to God, sacrifices of animals only were done for being cleaned ritually, faith in God providing the atonement was still needed. The ordinances of the commandments were then to not simply be observed outwardly, but would be in the hearts of those in this new covenant, that were lived out from the heart then.

Though many among the people of Israel rejected this, there is the time according to the promises that all those of Israel, those that are left, will still come to this, with coming to their promised Christ.

Even ahead of this, civilization is growing unstable, more crises in the world, from the destruction to the earth that God hates (Revelation 11:18), are coming, and with that Mystery Babylon will collapse. We should not remain with cities of civilization which are all part of this destruction to this earth, with ruining more and more of the diminishing environments and with the loss of a great many species which is ongoing, but leave all that where we can live with good stewardship that was required of us which has been failed among us all this time, with others among us there.

When civilization is collapsing, there will be the attempt of the one known as the beast in prophecy with gaining a following giving promise to rebuild civilization from what is left, and there will be threat to those of Israel in their land involved in that.
 
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FredVB

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The ending scenarios are really close. Destructiveness in this earth with which we were all involved assures that natural environments are disappearing and there is a huge ongoing extinction of species, and all our civilization will face coming crises through which it cannot go on, and Mystery Babylon from which believers must come out will soon collapse and fall, and merchants everywhere all over will mourn.

Earth's sixth mass extinction has begun according to scientists

https://phys.org/news/2022-02-greenland-ice-sheet-world-largest.html

https://phys.org/news/2022-02-century-worth-sea-years.amp

Believers, who are involved in this as much as any who participate in modern civilization, do not have basis for being taken out from the world to be saved from these things leaving all others to face those. Believers, like others, should not be there to participate in any of it. They should then come out, with others, believers with believers, to live on land growing things, living simply, in a sustainable way, while troubles will come to civilization that it will not escape. The one foretold who is described as a great beast will lead all who really want things of what he promises after the fall and collapse of it all, Mystery Babylon, including promise of rebuilding civilization from what remains of the previous existence of it.
 
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FredVB

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It is not that there would be no rapture of believers. There is the promise in scripture of believers being caught up to be with the Lord, that will then be fulfilled. But there is a general cultish belief spread around that has trust in that as something that will deliver us from any problems coming here, such that we will not have to do anything differently, and with this responsibility in this world is abdicated or abandoned. Really rapture of believers will only happen for delivering them out from those in this world left unrepentant on whom God's acts of judgment are coming. But disasters are coming in this world before that, and our responsibilities here were never over.
 
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iamlamad

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It is not that there would be no rapture of believers. There is the promise in scripture of believers being caught up to be with the Lord, that will then be fulfilled. But there is a general cultish belief spread around that has trust in that as something that will deliver us from any problems coming here, such that we will not have to do anything differently, and with this responsibility in this world is abdicated or abandoned. Really rapture of believers will only happen for delivering them out from those in this world left unrepentant on whom God's acts of judgment are coming. But disasters are coming in this world before that, and our responsibilities here were never over.
The church will be removed because God's wrath is coming. God is setting NO APPOINTMENTS for His church with His wrath. Period and end of story.
 
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