Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

This one too:

Psalm 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

marc b said:

This one too:

Psalm 139:7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

Click to expand...

But how do you answer the topic question?

Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

Saint Steven said:

What do you make of this?

Isaiah 14:9
The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations.

Click to expand...

My vote is that it’s not literal, due to the previous verse using not-so-literal language, referencing how the Cedars of Lebanon are singing.

do cedar trees sing?

Saint Steven said:

But how do you answer the topic question?

Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

Click to expand...

I already did. In summary i can't separate eternal life from spiritual life, can't imagine worshiping God without being a spiritual being etc. That was before the OP was revised.

With the revised OP i also reject the OT forefathers were not aware of the afterlife. Thats why i'm posting evidence they did

MMXX said:

It's more like would you still love your dad, even if he wasn't going to leave you his billion dollars in his will? Some people become Christians just to get a ticket to heaven.

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We need to make a very bold distinction between:

1) The idea of reward and punishment
2) The promise of resurrection, and life everlasting in the age to come

If one is operating from the perspective that being a Christian is about reward for having been part of the right religion; and/or avoiding punishment for having been part of the right religion, then this is deeply wrong and problematic.

But one cannot separate Christianity as a religion from the core confession of that religion. If I go to a restaurant and order a hamburger, but say I don't want the meat, bun, or toppings--then what exactly am I asking for? It's not like asking for a substitute, like hold the lettuce, or do some carb-free version with lettuce wraps instead of a bun, or a veggie patty instead of a meat patty. I'm ordering something and doing away with all of it. Nothing's left. There's nothing left to even talk about or say at that point.

The Christian confession, the very core of our religion, is that Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead. His resurrection isn't just for show, it is bold truth that death has lost its power, because what God has done for Jesus, He is going to do for us and all of creation.

If the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. That is what St. Paul says. You can't separate the future resurrection of the dead from Christ's resurrection, they are intimately and inseparably connected.

If God is not in the business of healing and saving the world, then there is no Gospel. Everything in the New Testament is a lie. And Jesus was at the very best a martyr and failed false messiah.

That's why the emphasis that needs to be made isn't about life after death, but rather, the wrong paradigm of conceiving of the Christian faith as being about reward and punishment.

Christianity is not transactional, it is not about inputting the right things to get reward, nor is it about inputting the right things to avoid punishment.

It's not about "do and believe these things to go to heaven and avoid hell". That is problematic and wrong.

But Christianity very much is about God's gracious love for the world, and reconciling this world to Himself in and through Jesus Christ, and God's answer to the evil and injustice of this world with grace, forgiveness, and the victory of life over death by resurrection.

It is about healing, fixing, mending, restoring the world. God is setting the world to rights. The invasion of grace is the invasion of justice; and that invasion of justice means the unbending of the world; what has been broken and bent and misshapen is being fixed, unbent, and restored--God is bringing wholeness. Every mountain shall be made low, and every valley shall be lifted up, and the paths made straight.

-CryptoLutheran

Dkh587 said:

My vote is that it’s not literal, due to the previous verse using not-so-literal language, referencing how the Cedars of Lebanon are singing.

do cedar trees sing?

Click to expand...

There are 29 references to the realm of the dead in the NIV translation. Do you care to refute them all?

Saint Steven said: ↑
What do you make of this?

Isaiah 14:9
The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations.

marc b said:

I already did. In summary i can't separate eternal life from spiritual life, can't imagine worshiping God without being a spiritual being etc. That was before the OP was revised.

With the revised OP i also reject the OT forefathers were not aware of the afterlife. Thats why i'm posting evidence they did

Click to expand...

That's not the question.

Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

You seem to be saying, "No."

Saint Steven said: ↑
But how do you answer the topic question?

Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

Saint Steven said:

There are 29 references to the realm of the dead in the NIV translation. Do you care to refute them all?

Saint Steven said: ↑
What do you make of this?

Isaiah 14:9
The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations.

Click to expand...

possibly, but do trees sing? Yes or no?

ViaCrucis said:

If God is not in the business of healing and saving the world, then there is no Gospel. Everything in the New Testament is a lie. And Jesus was at the very best a martyr and failed false messiah.

Click to expand...

Is an afterlife required to make that happen?

A broken relationship with God needs to be restored. The benefit could last a lifetime. What more is needed?

Dkh587 said:

possibly, but do trees sing? Yes or no?

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They could in the realm of the dead. Lots of strange goings on if you read ALL those passages. The trees of Eden ended up there as well.

Saint Steven said:

Is an afterlife required to make that happen?

A broken relationship with God needs to be restored. The benefit could last a lifetime. What more is needed?

Click to expand...

A homeless mother in a war-torn nation lost her husband and all of her children to war, poverty, and sickness. She dies alone, in the street, as people pass on by.

In light of such cosmically cruel injustice, what should we say? Too bad? She lost everything, and then she died, a nameless, faceless woman who lost everything and was tossed away by the world as though she were garbage, whose existence is now snuffed out from the universe.

My hope, and it is the hope which came in the form of a small infant child born to a Jewish virgin woman from Nazareth, is that the injustice of this world is not the final answer to existence.

The world doesn't exist just to be host to billions of minds and experiences, of loves and laughs and sorrows and griefs, a history of life, and life burdened with the cruel and uncaring coldness of a mechanical universe. That isn't the world's point or purpose.

What does a restored relationship with God even mean in the context of such existential nothingness? More than that, what does God even mean in that context?

"If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied." - 1 Corinthians 15:19

-CryptoLutheran

Saint Steven said:

We are so geared to thinking in terms of an afterlife. But what if there were no afterlife? Obviously the scriptures would be written differently, but it could have been set up that way.

Imagine if humankind fell and the main point was to be reconciled to God in this lifetime. That you could have a full life with a reconciled relationship with your creator. And at the end of your life you could pass from this life knowing that your life meant something.

Would it be worthwhile to be a Christian in that arrangement?

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The apostle Paul thought not.

Saint Steven said:

But how do you answer the topic question?

Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

Click to expand...

Not being born of Jewish mother, I'd probably be a Stoic. What would be the point of following a Jewish false prophet who had been executed on a cross?

Saint Steven said:

That's not the question.

Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

You seem to be saying, "No."

Saint Steven said: ↑
But how do you answer the topic question?

Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

Click to expand...

Do i have to spell it out? I'm saying it doesn't make sense and therefore can't be answered. Unless i add more assumptions or parameters. But then i would not be answering the same question anymore. So no i won't fry, an acceptable answer per the OP. Yo, i'm outta here.

Saint Steven said:

Two things:
1) The topic question is about no afterlife.

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Yes, and?

Saint Steven said:

2) Your doctrine of the afterlife would statistically more likely put the child who died prematurely in an eternal state of torture with no hope of escape. If you were that child, wouldn't you prefer no afterlife? And what does it say about the God that would do that?

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You don't know what my "doctrine of the afterlife" is. It's...interesting, though, that you would rather jump to conclusions about what it might be than inquire after what my actual doctrine of the afterlife is.

Saint Steven said:

I think the title of this topic is a great question.
Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

The majority seems to say, "No." they would NOT be a Christian if there was no afterlife. Or that there is no Christianity without an afterlife. Another way of saying, "No."

This is a sad report. It means most do not follow Christ based on what it means in the here and now, but rather on the basis of what it will mean for them alone in the afterlife.

Does Christianity really have no practical value in this lifetime?

Click to expand...

It is very eye-opening indeed just how many people dont value an actual relationship with Jesus as much as they do the prospect of heaven.

ViaCrucis said:

A homeless mother in a war-torn nation lost her husband and all of her children to war, poverty, and sickness. She dies alone, in the street, as people pass on by.

In light of such cosmically cruel injustice, what should we say? Too bad? She lost everything, and then she died, a nameless, faceless woman who lost everything and was tossed away by the world as though she were garbage, whose existence is now snuffed out from the universe.

My hope, and it is the hope which came in the form of a small infant child born to a Jewish virgin woman from Nazareth, is that the injustice of this world is not the final answer to existence.

The world doesn't exist just to be host to billions of minds and experiences, of loves and laughs and sorrows and griefs, a history of life, and life burdened with the cruel and uncaring coldness of a mechanical universe. That isn't the world's point or purpose.

What does a restored relationship with God even mean in the context of such existential nothingness? More than that, what does God even mean in that context?

"If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied." - 1 Corinthians 15:19

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

On the other hand, if one believes in a forever burning hell with no hope of escape, where countless billions have been predestined to suffer, we could ask those victims if they would prefer that their existence be snuffed out from the universe, or if they prefer to be remembered this way.

Anyway, this topic doesn't work if you fail to play by its rules. IMAGINE there's no afterlife. Would you choose to be a Christian?

RDKirk said:

The apostle Paul thought not.

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So, your answer would be, "No." ?
If there was no afterlife, you would not be a Christian? You would pursue self interests (with no concern for others) since you were not threatened with hell in the afterlife?

Saint Steven said: ↑
We are so geared to thinking in terms of an afterlife. But what if there were no afterlife? Obviously the scriptures would be written differently, but it could have been set up that way.

Imagine if humankind fell and the main point was to be reconciled to God in this lifetime. That you could have a full life with a reconciled relationship with your creator. And at the end of your life you could pass from this life knowing that your life meant something.

Would it be worthwhile to be a Christian in that arrangement?