Butterball1

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No, tell me, does ANY SAINT ever decide to leave the church?
Of course not. The FACT that they "went out" from the church
demonstrates they were NEVER PART of the "wheat". Or do you
not know of this Scripture?


1Jn_2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


This is the SAME as your verse in Galatians...
they "went out from us" [the wheat] because they were NOT
"of us". And them going out MAKES MANIFEST that they were
not "of us".

Read 1 Jn 2:19 (above) again and again and again...
until you finally UNDERSTAND and ACCEPT the Biblical doctrine
that those who "go out" from the church were NEVER saved...
which is PROVEN by the fact they "went out".


Listen, I asked you before...
Does any REAL SAINT ever forsake the church?
Why do you not answer that easy question?
Because it proves your "logic" to be delusion.

Revelations 2:4-5 "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

Here is case at Ephesus where they did not leave the church but if they did not repent of the things commanded the church (candlestick, Rev 1:20) God would take the church from them. They would no longer be recognized by God as being His church. They may coninue to meet and take the Lord's Supper etc, but God would not recognize them as His people....if they will not repent.


1 Jn 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

--if those antichrists John speaks about were never saved then the most the verse proves is a never saved person was never saved, it does not prove it is impossi le for one to fall away.

--let's assume those antichrist had once been saved and of the church, the verse still does not prove your point:
a) John does NOT say they were NEVER of us but that they were not of at the time they went out from us. They may have been saved at point (A) remained faithful till point (B) where they no longer let what they had heard (the gospel) abide in them (1 John 2:24) and THEN FELL away from them and continued to not be a part of them from point (B) to they left at point (C).

Furthermore if it is impossible for one to fall away then the warning, admonition John gives in 1 John 2:24 is pointless, needless and senseless. John says " If (conditional word) that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." THerefore again, it may have been those people were faithful Christians many years with God's word abiding in them but they did not conditionally let God's word abide in them, they may have been lead astray by the false teachings of the Gnostics thereby falling away from Christ, then they no longer of them and was not of them til they day they went out from them.

b) John is talking about specific people in this context, these antichrist. THerefore no matter if they were "never saved" you cannot use them to make universal application. For there are examples of those who were of the church, Christian who had been redeemed by fell away, 2 Peter 2:1 who went from being washed, cleansed of their sin back to wallowing in the mire of sin, 2 Peter 2:22.

In Acts 15 there were those who were teaching a false teaching, "Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved". ..that the Gentiles could not be saved unless they were circumcised, the Apostles met with the church in Jerusalem to discuss this matter, verse 2. James speaks at this meeting and in verse 24 "Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:" Those false teachers came from the church teaching things without authority of the Apostles. THe fact they "went out from us" does not in any way imply they were 'never of us'.
 
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Butterball1

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Free will would have to be defined . Free to do what or whose will? The food Jesus knew of. . . doing the will of another. (father) . . or that in which the disciples knew not.

Nothing good can come apart from the will of God Remember as informed in Job 23 .Our Holy Father is of one mind and always does whatsoever His own soul desires .Who could turn him? He repents or turns us, in that work of turning making our hearts soft, washing and renewing us with the water of his words or doctrines of God that fall like rain or dew upon the grass.

Hi,

Free will is having the ability and freedom to choose between two or more options as in Joshua 24:15 having the ability and freedom from choosing the false gods or the one true God.

Men do have the ability to choose to do well or choose to not do well, Genesis 4:7 so men are not locked in to being only able to choose to do wrong. Joshua choose to do well "as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD".
 
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Butterball1

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No, God "chose" or "elected" who He would saved before
the foundation of the earth based ONLY on His Good Pleasure
and not on anything they would do in their lifetime. It is those
who God "elected" that He "calls".


Now, if you want to say God's "Good Pleasure" is "arbitrary"...
then you can say that. You can deny a Sovereign God as much
as you want... it does not make it Truth, in fact it contradicts
Biblical Truth.


Eph 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by
Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Read Romans 8... it talks about the "arbitrary" election of God.
And it talks about how NONE can be lost... to it contradicts
your "logic" twice.


Rom 8:28-31
And we know that all things work together for good to them that
love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?


Note: the "us" in the passage above is the "wheat" in the church
but NOT the "tares"... you must be able to discern CONTEXT
before you can understand MEANING.

No verse says God, before the world began, unconditionally randomlly chose certain individuals to be saved. SUch an idea makes God culpable for the faithless and lost when he has no such culpability. Before the world began God predetemined a GROUP called Christian would be saved and anyman those chooses to obey the gospel become part of that foreknown GROUP. THerefore GOd has no culpability for those that are no t pat of the group and lost.

Romans 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
ROmans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."


"For' is an expalnatory participle giving us an explanation for the assurance given in v28. Verse 28 is speaking about that gruop called Christian the ones who love God and have been called by the gospel (2 Thessaolonians 2:14) becoming Christians in having answered/obeyed that gospel call. So those in the group have the assurance "all things work together for the good" FOR the reasons given in verse 29 about that group.

So Rom 8 nor Eph 1 speak about unconditional election of the individual. BUt shows that before the world began God foreknew where salvation would be found (in the group Christian) God foreknew this group would have the traits/blessings of being "in Him, Holy and without blame" and called "sons" Ephesians 1:4-5 and foreknew the good works this group would perform Ephesians 2:10.

There is no such thing nor can you show me one example of an individual who was UNconditionally in Him, who was holy and without blame and a son of God while OUTSIDE of the GROUP. Hence NO UNCONDITIONAL election of individuals OUTSIDE of the GROUP.


(Side note) And those in the group, to remain in this group and be saved they must "suffer with Him" Romans 8:17..." if (conditional word) so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." So glorification is conditional for those in the group and remain in the group having suffered with Christ.

5thkingdom said:
Of course the PROBLEM with your "logic" is that the Bible tell us
(both in the OT and NT) that unregenerated men will NEVER
"seek God", no, not even one.

No verse says one must be first "regenerated" before he can seek God. The fact men have been COMMANDED to seek GOd implies men have the ability and responsibilty to seek God and those who do not seek God are lost for their own culpability and not God's culpability for failing to "regenerate" them.

Those that do choose to seek the Lord can find Him Acts 17:27.
 
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Butterball1

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Of course there was a REASON for Judas being part of
the Apostles... do you know what that REASON was?
How can you offer an "informed opinion" when you
do not know that REASON (of course you cannot)


Really?
So you actually PRETEND that Judas had the Holy Spirit
BEFORE Pentecost?


You actually PRETEND that Judas had the Holy Spirit
BEFORE Christ was crucified and BEFORE any of the
other Apostles received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
You show again that you do not understand the Gospel.


Jim

Matthew 10 simples proves my point while refuting yours. Judas was once in a saved state, he had the Spirit enabling him to perform miracles and recevie revelatory words from the Holy Spirit just as the other Apostles, GOd was His Father....not Satan yet Judas fell from the saved postion he had as an Apostle.
 
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garee

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Hi,

Free will is having the ability and freedom to choose between two or more options as in Joshua 24:15 having the ability and freedom from choosing the false gods or the one true God.

Men do have the ability to choose to do well or choose to not do well, Genesis 4:7 so men are not locked in to being only able to choose to do wrong. Joshua choose to do well "as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD".

Ses serve the Lord Emanuael who works in his crestures to both will and empower them .He who is not a man as us is not served by human hands in any way shape or form.

Mankind was created to do the will of another .

Seeing as a corrupted dying creation we do not wrestle against and therefore are not strengthen by flesh and blood as corrupted mankind .There are two wills that mankind can be subject to. The god of this world natural unconverted mankind or the will of our unseen Holy Father as sons of God . No limbo in between to those who walk or understand by hearing God not seen. They receive the end of their new born again faith from the beginning as God did work in them .

If we hear the will of God and do it then that is where you find the treasures of ones heart.

Mankind did the will of a creature seen giving mankind his lying word ."You shall surely not die" in effect look at me and live. And the glory of God unseen departed exposing their nakedness' Previously children of light that now turned into darkness .
 
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garee

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Matthew 10 simples proves my point while refuting yours. Judas was once in a saved state, he had the Spirit enabling him to perform miracles and recevie revelatory words from the Holy Spirit just as the other Apostles, GOd was His Father....not Satan yet Judas fell from the saved position he had as an Apostle.

Being an apostle adds nothing to the subject matter.

I would say a position used as a principle .Used to represent "the spirit of judgement" as those slain in and by the Spirit of God. He was used to show how to fail successfully he passed that test.

God who is not served by corrupted flesh and blood . He can even use one who believes not (not saved) to plant the incorruptible born again seed.

A couple examples. . the many spoken of in Mathew 7. They performed miracles in his name or power Making a claim they performed it rather that the will of the father that worked in them .They say but do it as if it was their own will . Jesus said of the Father . . .I never knew you workers of iniquity .

Mathew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There are other examples also that teach us God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form .
 
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Anthony2019

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I think the way to understand "falling away" is to look at it like a broken marriage.

A person gets married to the person they love. They make promises to that person be there for them, showing their loyalty, care, and support, through sickness and health, for richer or poorer, and this they vow to do for the rest of their life.

Just like life itself, married life has its ups and downs, it is not always going to be easy. At times, the relationship may become strained. People do and say things that grieve the one they love, sometimes unintentionally, sometimes through weakness. Yet because of their enduring love and commitment, harmony in the relationship is quickly restored.

When a person shows an attitude of indifference towards their spouse and commits repeated acts of injury or neglect, or if there is any infidelity in the relationship, then the union is severed. They may describe themselves as "married", but in reality, the relationship no longer exists at all.

It is a bit like our relationship with the Lord. When come to faith, we make a commitment to Him that we will love and serve him with all our love and strength, for the rest of our lives.

Our lives as Christians will not always be easy. We will face trials and temptations, perhaps even persecution, but we will remain steadfast and loyal out of our love and commitment to Him. No human being is perfect and at times we will stumble and sin, yet as long as we continue with our desire to serve Christ, to please him and abide in Him, our relationship with Him remains.

If on the other hand, we reject Christ, showing infidelity and indifference towards Him, deliberately choosing what is corrupt and evil, over that which is good, our relationship will become severed. Jesus said "if you love me, you will obey my commandments" (John 14:15). He also said "If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me" (Matthew 16:24). We cannot love both God and the world. We cannot love both God and money. We cannot love God and live selfish, immoral and treacherous lives. We either love God or we do not love him at all.

In his early days, Demas was a devout Christian who worked very closely with the apostle Paul and was held in great esteem by him (Philemon 1:24). Demas later became a man of great privilege and it was his love for the world that finally became his downfall "For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica" (2 Timothy 4:10).

I do not know if Demas came back to the Lord and repented, but what I do know is that if he had, he would have been welcomed and forgiven.
 
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Butterball1

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Being an apostle adds nothing to the subject matter.

I would say a position used as a principle .Used to represent "the spirit of judgement" as those slain in and by the Spirit of God. He was used to show how to fail successfully he passed that test.

God who is not served by corrupted flesh and blood . He can even use one who believes not (not saved) to plant the incorruptible born again seed.

A couple examples. . the many spoken of in Mathew 7. They performed miracles in his name or power Making a claim they performed it rather that the will of the father that worked in them .They say but do it as if it was their own will . Jesus said of the Father . . .I never knew you workers of iniquity .

Mathew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There are other examples also that teach us God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form .
Those in Matt 7:22 were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to receive revelatory words as Judas was, God is not called their Father as God is called the Father of Judas, receiving Judas was the same as receiving Jesus which was not the case with those in Mt 7.

Also, Judas is said to have fallen away, Acts 1:25. One never saved cannot fall away from a saved position he was never in nor fall into a lost postion in which he always was in.

Lastly, Judas was given the power to cast out devils, Matt 10:8. In a debate Jesus had with some Jews (Pharisees), these Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out devils by the power of Satan (Matt 12:24). To which Christ said "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?" If Judas was never saved but always of the devil then we have Satan casting out Satan when Judas cast out devils. Such would refute Christ's own argument against the Pharisees. But Satan would not cast out Satan and be divided against himself. Hence at the time of Matthew 10 Judas was of God casting out devils.
 
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5thKingdom

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Hi thanks for the reply


My pleasure


Believing God is a work of God that he works in us to both will and empower us that have no power by which we could believe God not seen . There is no work we could do as declared to the apostles according to their query


There is no BIBLICAL argument that all (real) repentance
is the RESULT (and not the cause) of regeneration.


John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Of course we need to understand the CONTEXT of "we" is limited
to those God "chose" or "elected" to adoption before the
foundation of the world.


The unsaved tare are not the Christians


That is a common mistake.
Jesus was very clear that the church consists of BOTH
saved "wheat" and unsaved "tares". Let me say that again,
the "Christian" church consists of BOTH "wheat and tares".


The mistake is the result of not understanding the BIBLE
speaks of the (temporal) "church" of both "wheat and tares"
and the (eternal) "church" of only the "wheat". This can be
demonstrated quickly by reading Revelation chapters 2 & 3
to see what Jesus says to the "churches"... which are clearly
not ONLY the saved.


This is also demonstrated in Matthew 7:21-23 and again in
Matthew 25:10-13 and Luke 13:23-30... where people who
call Jesus their "Lord" (people identified as "Christians") are told
they were never known by Christ.


Again, it's important to understand the BIBLE talks about two
separate "churches"... one temporal (wheat and tares) the other
eternal (only wheat).


They are among the wheat but not of the us as those who do know personally of that work he works in us. Scripture defines the us in Christ, not the interpretation of the church .Many go out because they are not of the true us.


I understand your point and have already (above) showed you
WHY you are mistaken as the BIBLE speaks of two "churches"
and the BIBLE speaks of "tares" being (false) "Christians".
There are many other examples of this reality besides
the ones I have already shown (which should suffice).


Wheat like other metaphors ( Milk, meat, corn etc.) are used in various parables to represents those who have tasted of the good things to come and believe the God who alone brings them into His fold of field .


"Wheat" or "Sheep" are those God sowed in the church and are
destined to eternal life. "Tares" or "Goats" are those Satan sowed
IN THE CHURCH and are destined to the same FIRE prepared for
Satan and the demons [Mat 25:41]


Jim
 
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garee

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My pleasure





There is no BIBLICAL argument that all (real) repentance
is the RESULT (and not the cause) of regeneration.





Of course we need to understand the CONTEXT of "we" is limited
to those God "chose" or "elected" to adoption before the
foundation of the world.





That is a common mistake.
Jesus was very clear that the church consists of BOTH
saved "wheat" and unsaved "tares". Let me say that again,
the "Christian" church consists of BOTH "wheat and tares".


The mistake is the result of not understanding the BIBLE
speaks of the (temporal) "church" of both "wheat and tares"
and the (eternal) "church" of only the "wheat". This can be
demonstrated quickly by reading Revelation chapters 2 & 3
to see what Jesus says to the "churches"... which are clearly
not ONLY the saved.


This is also demonstrated in Matthew 7:21-23 and again in
Matthew 25:10-13 and Luke 13:23-30... where people who
call Jesus their "Lord" (people identified as "Christians") are told
they were never known by Christ.


Again, it's important to understand the BIBLE talks about two
separate "churches"... one temporal (wheat and tares) the other
eternal (only wheat).





I understand your point and have already (above) showed you
WHY you are mistaken as the BIBLE speaks of two "churches"
and the BIBLE speaks of "tares" being (false) "Christians".
There are many other examples of this reality besides
the ones I have already shown (which should suffice).





"Wheat" or "Sheep" are those God sowed in the church and are
destined to eternal life. "Tares" or "Goats" are those Satan sowed
IN THE CHURCH and are destined to the same FIRE prepared for
Satan and the demons [Mat 25:41]


Jim

Like in all things God must to the first works. Let there be and it was good.

To repent is a work of God turning us so that we in return can return to him when we hear his will .(two turnings)

No man can move towards God unless the father works in them to both will and empower mankind to do the pleasure of His will

Jesus was very clear that the church consists of wheat. The tares that where not of the wheat went out from the wheat.

The Bible does not teach two churches .She is the one bride. Christ the one husband

Mathew 7 speaks of tares .They do not know Christ he call them workers of inequity
 
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garee

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Those in Matt 7:22 were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to receive revelatory words as Judas was, God is not called their Father as God is called the Father of Judas, receiving Judas was the same as receiving Jesus which was not the case with those in Mt 7.

Also, Judas is said to have fallen away, Acts 1:25. One never saved cannot fall away from a saved position he was never in nor fall into a lost postion in which he always was in.

Lastly, Judas was given the power to cast out devils, Matt 10:8. In a debate Jesus had with some Jews (Pharisees), these Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out devils by the power of Satan (Matt 12:24). To which Christ said "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?" If Judas was never saved but always of the devil then we have Satan casting out Satan when Judas cast out devils. Such would refute Christ's own argument against the Pharisees. But Satan would not cast out Satan and be divided against himself. Hence at the time of Matthew 10 Judas was of God casting out devils.

Those in Matt 7:22 were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to preach revelatory words as Judas was. But in either case the power of the gospel does not come by the flesh of those sent (apostles)

The revelatory words have nothing to do with the apostles .Jesus did not deny he performed them. The many in Mathew 7 in a hope the power would be accredited to them . Jesus said I never knew you.

The words provided the power not the ones sent with it. Judas not being friendly toward. Judas is used to resent the spirit of judgment .Those that trust the power of false doctrine called poison of serpents fall backward slain by the Spirit to show they were slain

Judas is said to have fallen away, Acts 1:25. fallen away does not mean he was saved . But like those in Hebrews 6 tasted and experience but never entered into a relationship .

Again the gospel that Judas was preaching it cast out demons if Christ worked in in men and the gospel gave power to raise the spiritually dead . God can use a unbeliever to preach the gospel just as easily than if they did believe according to all things written in the law and prophets.

He is not served by corrupted human hands in any way shape or form .
 
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5thKingdom

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You are denying ther facts that those Galatians went from being in a saved state but fell from it for they had quit obeying the truth of Christ's NT, (Galatians 3:1; Galatians 5:7) as taught them by Paul


But neither Galatians 3:1 or 5:7 indicates the people who are
the context of the verse were "indwelt". As I explained to you
carefully... a man can be PART of the church and "fall away".
That DOES NOT mean he was ever "indwelt" (saved).


In fact the Bible PROMISES unsaved "tares" will "fall away"
to DEMONSTRATE they were not "of us".
I gave you that SCRIPTURE.
Why did you ignore it?


You continue to ADD to the Text...
and IGNORE Scriptures that contradict your "theory".
That proves nothing - except you are not following the Gospel
of the Bible, you are designing your own personal "gospel".


You keep dealing with this "indwelt" theory of yours that is not found in the context.


LOL, that is hilarious.
This "indwelt" theory you speak of is PART of being "born again".
It is REQUIRED for all who are saved. So, since we are talking
about saved people... it cannot be "not found in the context" as
you pretend. The DEFINITION of "saved" is the "indwelt"


Whenever you want to talk about SAVED people...
you are talking about "indwelt" or "born again" people.
That is the context of "saved".


These are very BASIC and ESSENTIAL elements of the Gospel
of the Bible. This is Christian theology 101.


The facts given in the context was they had been severed from Christ and fallen from grace. LOGICALLY this means they must have been IN CHRIST and IN GRACE for again, one LOGICALLY cannot fall from Christ or fall from grace if one was never in Christ or in grace to begin with.


The Gospel of the Bible is not designed by the "LOGIC" of men.
When you pretend to "prove" your theories with "logic" you only
show you cannot "prove" them WITH SCRIPTURE, and you think
that your "feelings" (or your "logic") is a substitute for Scripture.
It is NOT a substitute for Scripture. You need to understand that.


Look, I have already covered this. You did NOT address
the SCRIPTURES I already gave you, you IGNORED them.
So why should I care what you have to say?


I showed you SCRIPTURES about people who depart from the
church - are separated from Christ (who is only found in church)
and separated from the Gospel (only found in church) and they
are separated from saving Grace (only found in church)...
THAT DOES NOT MEAN those who depart from the church
were ("logically") saved.


You do not want to hear what the BIBLE says because it
contradicts your "theory". Instead, you want to reject and
IGNORE what the Bible says - so you can design your own
personal "gospel". Of course, you are free to do so...
but it is only you pretending.


THese facts and logic


Yes, you have your "logic"... but it contradicts SCRIPTURE.
So your "logic" is your (false) man-made "gospel".
Good luck with that.


You have us think that being in Christ or in grace is NOT a saved state unless one is "indwelt" when the Bible says no su h thing at all.


I have no idea who you think "us" is.
Here is some MORE SCRIPTURE that contradicts YOUR "theory"


Joh 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit
of God dwell in you
. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Rom 8:15-16
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;
but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry,
Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit,
that we are the children of God:



How do you even know they were not "indwelt"?


I have already GIVEN YOU this verse... and you IGNORED IT.
Why do you ask for it again? So you can IGNORE IT AGAIN?


1Jn_2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued
with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


And, if that SCRIPTURE is not clear enough for you to understand,
if that does not PROVE to you that those who LEAVE THE CHURCH
are DEMONSTRATING they were never "of us" (the saved)...
here is another Scripture that refutes your theory.


Rom 8:35-39
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Those who are given the "indwelling" Holy Spirit and ETERNAL life
cannot be separated from that "indwelling" Spirit and eternal life.
The Bible could not be more clear about this in the verses above
and in DOZENS of other passages.


You can choose to follow your man-made "logic"
instead of Scripture if you want...
Good luck with that.


Jim
 
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BNR32FAN

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So........IN the mind of someone who is born again, who has left their original faith and are = fallen from it....

To "fall from Grace",..... is to stop wholly trusting in Christ, the way you completely did, when you first were born again.
See, everyone who is born again, initially, understands..."im a sinner, i have no hope, im hell bound, im no good, there is nothing i can do of myself to end up in Heaven, So, i rely fully, totally, ultimately, completely,, on Jesus to SAVE ME = to deal with all my sin and get me into heaven.
But then, they get flipped by a deceiver, by the Devil.
Paul teaches this as "Who has bewitched you"... in Galatians.
The born again get subverted away from their initial ultimate trust in Christ, and become turned and ruined, faith wise.
Still born again, but faith corrupted...or "in the flesh", as Paul teaches.
And this is simply to CONTINUALLY ATTEMPT to try to do for themselves, what only Jesus's Blood has = ALREADY accomplished for them.

See, this faith corrupted person can't SEE that you can't be more saved than you are, when you are born again....and remain so.
They can't SEE this, because their mind is blinded to this truth, as that is the devil's ability to cause this, by building a stronghold in their mind that is a subverting of real faith.

Salvation is COMPLETED by Jesus and given as a GIFT : "the GIFT of Salvation"... Its not to be completed, its to be received.
The mind blinded faith corrupted, can't SEE this, as this eternal truth has become veiled to them, as this is how the Law that they are trying to maintain to "stay saved", has blinded them.
Its Satan using a person's self righteousness to cause this mind blinded stronghold.

This Legalist has no FAITH anymore that Salvation is ACCOMPLISHED......
They have no enlightenment regarding why all their sins are dealt with and why they are already in the Kingdom of God and that Salvation is a completed Atonement.
Instead they are trying to both keep it and complete it., and that is how you reject Grace, misunderstand Grace, and Fall from it.

A person who has become .."im doing this or im not to do that"..and if i keep THAT worked out i end up in heaven, but if i don't then im lost"""""" this person cannot SEE that they are deceived and are obsessed with self saving, and are not really Trusting Christ any longer to get them in to Heaven.
"Fallen from Grace".

Here is the Spiritual SUBVERSION:
= The Devil has them believing that their Working/Enduring their way into heaven, is to Trust Christ.
So, that is how upside down and subverted their faith has become... They actually BELIEVE that self saving, enduring, self effort, is to trust in Christ, and its difficult to break this stronghold, because its so invested in pride and self righteousness and spiritual deception.

So, this person, is the "i can lose my salvation, i can commit the unpardonable sin", "I have now become a teacher of the gospel of works."",, as i have been deceived into BELIEVING as my FAITH....that the self effort of ENDURING , which is a SELF EFFORT....which is a WORK, is going to keep me saved.. is going to get me into Heaven... and if i dont do this, then i will not stay saved, and i will not go to heaven."""
This means that by turning from TRUST that Christ gets you into heaven, you have turned to yourself, to ENDURE, to commandment keep.... as your Cross that decides if you go to heaven or not.
Thats LEGALISM. Thats SELF Saving.

So, all self saving, is like this.. Its all subverted faith... falling from Grace...and into a mental stronghold whereby you are now trusting in what you do to try to get yourself into heaven, instead of ONLY Trusting in what Christ has done, as "the finished work of Jesus on the Cross," to get you into heaven.. and maintain your RIGHTEOUSNESS.

See, its all about BELIEVING , = "WHAT GETS ME INTO HEAVEN".... and when a person has lost sight of the Truth..., then they are faith subverted because they have a Mental STRONGHOLD that is their spiritual blindness, and this is to "fall from Grace".
Its to exist in that spiritual blindness as your actual Faith.
And if you are there, you can't SEE it.

THE "fallen from Grace....who is the "enduring" worker, the "commandment keeper", the "torah keeper" the "holding unto my faith as my salvation" keeper......all of these are the same deceptive STRONGHOLD.......its all trying to make yourself RIGHT with God, trying to keep yourself saved..= by whatever you think gets it done that YOU ARE TO DO = that you believe accomplishes this end result.
Understand, that whatever you are trusting in to get you into heaven is now your savior, and if you believe that you can lose your salvation, then this means you not actually Trusting in Jesus to keep you saved.
You are actually contradicting Grace, and are in opposition to this verse, which is to literally be in opposition to the Cross.
Philippians 1:6

John 15:2 He (The Father) cuts off every branch IN ME (In Christ) that beareth not fruit.


Luke 13:6-9 “And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Look! For three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, leave it alone for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭
Matthew 7:21-27 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; LEAVE ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ “Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and its collapse was great.”


John 10:27-28 “My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”

Matthew 25:31-46 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left. “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You as a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of Mine, you did it for Me.’ “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

James 2:14-20 “What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless?”
 
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BNR32FAN

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Those in Matt 7:22 were not inspired by the Holy Spirit to receive revelatory words as Judas was, God is not called their Father as God is called the Father of Judas, receiving Judas was the same as receiving Jesus which was not the case with those in Mt 7.

Also, Judas is said to have fallen away, Acts 1:25. One never saved cannot fall away from a saved position he was never in nor fall into a lost postion in which he always was in.

Lastly, Judas was given the power to cast out devils, Matt 10:8. In a debate Jesus had with some Jews (Pharisees), these Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out devils by the power of Satan (Matt 12:24). To which Christ said "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?" If Judas was never saved but always of the devil then we have Satan casting out Satan when Judas cast out devils. Such would refute Christ's own argument against the Pharisees. But Satan would not cast out Satan and be divided against himself. Hence at the time of Matthew 10 Judas was of God casting out devils.

Judas didn’t cast out anything it was God who did the casting out. That’s why the 72 said “even demons are subject to us in Your Name.” No apostles or prophet ever performed a miracle by his own power. These miracles were performed by God granting their request. Judas had been stealing money from the treasury during Jesus’ ministry.

“But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples, the one who intended to betray Him, *said, “Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and the proceeds given to poor people? ” Now he said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he kept the money box, he used to steal from what was put into it.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:4-6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Here’s another indication that Judas did not believe.

“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him. And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” As a result of this many of His disciples left, and would no longer walk with Him. So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to leave also, do you?” Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. And we have already believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot; for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:64-71‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 6 took place quite early in Jesus’ ministry and Jesus is already saying that Judas is a devil.
 
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5thKingdom

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Jesus was very clear that the church consists of wheat. The tares that where not of the wheat went out from the wheat.


Jesus contradicts you:


Mat 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The [Christian] Kingdom of Heaven [the church]
is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among
the wheat
, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up,
and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[the tares are AMONG the wheat] He said unto them, An enemy
hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that
we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye
gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them
.
[Jesus said let the wheat and tares grow together] Let both
grow together until the harvest: [they grow together UNTIL
(wait for it....) the harvest. This could not be more clear]
and
in the time of harvest [WHEN are the wheat and tares in the
church separated? In the final harvest. How clear is that?]
I will
say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. [when does the separation of wheat and tares occur?...
during the final Harvest]


Your "opinion" has been REFUTED by the Words of Christ.


The Bible does not teach two churches .She is the one bride. Christ the one husband


Then you are saying the "tares" are part of the Bride of Christ.
Of course that is nonsensical. And you are saying that the
"Bride of Christ" (the church) contains all manner of unsaved.


If you want to be taken seriously you must have SCRIPTURE
to support your words... not just your "feelings" or "opinion".
Look at what SCRIPTURE says about "the churches" and
then try to tell me they contain ONLY the saved.


You should never assume that Biblical Truth is LIMITED
to what you understand. Here are SCRIPTURES that refute
your "understanding". I GAVE YOU these Scriptures before
and you IGNORED SCRIPTURE to simply express your "feelings".
If you want to be taken seriously you must never ignore Scripture,
or pretend your "feelings" or "opinion" substitutes for Scripture.


Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;


Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;


Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;


Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;


Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.


Mathew 7 speaks of tares .They do not know Christ he call them workers of inequity


Matthew 13 speaks of "tares" within the "Kingdom of Heaven"...
and they STAY THERE until the Final Harvest. If your "feelings" or
"opinion" contradicts SCRIPTURE (as it does in this case) then your
"opinion" has already been PROVEN wrong.


Jim
 
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garee

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Jesus contradicts you:


Mat 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The [Christian] Kingdom of Heaven [the church]
is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among
the wheat
, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up,
and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
[the tares are AMONG the wheat] He said unto them, An enemy
hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that
we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye
gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them
.
[Jesus said let the wheat and tares grow together] Let both
grow together until the harvest: [they grow together UNTIL
(wait for it....) the harvest. This could not be more clear]
and
in the time of harvest [WHEN are the wheat and tares in the
church separated? In the final harvest. How clear is that?]
I will
say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. [when does the separation of wheat and tares occur?...
during the final Harvest]


Your "opinion" has been REFUTED by the Words of Christ.





Then you are saying the "tares" are part of the Bride of Christ.
Of course that is nonsensical. And you are saying that the
"Bride of Christ" (the church) contains all manner of unsaved.


If you want to be taken seriously you must have SCRIPTURE
to support your words... not just your "feelings" or "opinion".
Look at what SCRIPTURE says about "the churches" and
then try to tell me they contain ONLY the saved.


You should never assume that Biblical Truth is LIMITED
to what you understand. Here are SCRIPTURES that refute
your "understanding". I GAVE YOU these Scriptures before
and you IGNORED SCRIPTURE to simply express your "feelings".
If you want to be taken seriously you must never ignore Scripture,
or pretend your "feelings" or "opinion" substitutes for Scripture.


Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;


Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;


Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;


Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;


Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.





Matthew 13 speaks of "tares" within the "Kingdom of Heaven"...
and they STAY THERE until the Final Harvest. If your "feelings" or
"opinion" contradicts SCRIPTURE (as it does in this case) then your
"opinion" has already been PROVEN wrong.


Jim

Thanks for the reply. I am not ignoring as you assume. Words have meaning attached to them . Big difference between poisonous things and things that can spring up to eternal life

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The [Christian] Kingdom of Heaven [the church]
is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

The kingdom of God is not likened as tares as you assume. Tares represent unbelief no faith. Good seed represents faith or wheat

The enemy of the church sows tares (Not is tares) .Tares do not transform into wheat .[the tares are AMONG the wheat ] Tares are not wheat. They are considered wormwood the plant’s poisonous bitter nature symbolic of God’s bitter judgement.

Two different kind of plants. Tares is also toxic to animals and humans. Like all poisons in the bible whether from reptiles or plants it represents false prophecy .

False prophecy (tares) will not harm the believer who eats the wheat and does not go beyond that which is written, called tares.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Thanks for the reply. I am not ignoring as you assume. Words have meaning attached to them . Big difference between poisonous things and things that can spring up to eternal life

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The [Christian] Kingdom of Heaven [the church]
is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

The kingdom of God is not likened as tares as you assume. Tares represent unbelief no faith. Good seed represents faith or wheat

The enemy of the church sows tares (Not is tares) .Tares do not transform into wheat .[the tares are AMONG the wheat ] Tares are not wheat. They are considered wormwood the plant’s poisonous bitter nature symbolic of God’s bitter judgement.

Two different kind of plants. Tares is also toxic to animals and humans. Like all poisons in the bible whether from reptiles or plants it represents false prophecy .

False prophecy (tares) will not harm the believer who eats the wheat and does not go beyond that which is written, called tares.

The verses I quoted imply that these people were in Christ. Galatians 5:4, John 15:6 and John 15:2 Jesus specifically states that the branches who are cut off for not bearing fruit are in Him. Jesus made it clear several times in John 6 that no one can come to Him unless The Father has granted him. Tares are not planted by God. Jesus said that the tares were planted by the evil one. satan cannot plant someone in Christ. Paul said in Galatians 5:4 you have been severed from Christ you have fallen from grace. No one can be severed from Christ who was never joined to Christ. Jesus said the branches are in Him. Jesus also said anyone who doesn’t remain in Him is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. A person can’t remain in Christ if they were never in Christ to begin with. Furthermore in John 15 Jesus also said in verse 7 “if you remain in Me” which is another indication that a person can fail to remain in Christ. Eternal security is a false doctrine. As for faith without works I don’t believe it is the works that are being taken into consideration. I think it’s the love we have for God and others that’s the root of works. A lack of works shows a lack of love. Faith without love profits no one.
 
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Butterball1

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Judas didn’t cast out anything it was God who did the casting out. That’s why the 72 said “even demons are subject to us in Your Name.” No apostles or prophet ever performed a miracle by his own power. These miracles were performed by God granting their request. Judas had been stealing money from the treasury during Jesus’ ministry.

“But Judas Iscariot, one of His disciples, the one who intended to betray Him, *said, “Why was this perfume not sold for three hundred denarii and the proceeds given to poor people? ” Now he said this, not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief, and as he kept the money box, he used to steal from what was put into it.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:4-6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Here’s another indication that Judas did not believe.

“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray Him. And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” As a result of this many of His disciples left, and would no longer walk with Him. So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to leave also, do you?” Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. And we have already believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot; for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:64-71‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 6 took place quite early in Jesus’ ministry and Jesus is already saying that Judas is a devil.

Matthew 10:1,8 "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.....Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

Judas was given power by God to cast out devils, to perform various miracles. Of course, Judas could not do these miracles by himself apart from the power given him by God. So the Apostles performed those miracles by the name of God, that is, by the authority of God with God having given them that power.

Luke 6:13 "And when it was day, he called unto him his (possessive pronoun) disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;"

Judas was as much a disciple of Christ belonging to Christ as much as the other 11. There is no reason to think Judas was an unbeliever than to think the other 11 were unbelievers. Also, there were great sacrifices these 12 had to make to become an Apostle, to leave all and follow Christ, no material or monetary gain to be made, suffer persecutions, etc. No reason at all to think a "faker" would put himself through so much. Jesus discouraged the pretenders from following Him who were not willing to make the necessary sacrifices Luke 9:57-62.

John 6:64 "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."

There are two different people/person Jesus is addressing here;
1) those that believe not
2) who (singular) should betray him

Judas is being addressed #2 the one who betrayed Christ not of the unbelievers. Jesus "knew from the beginning" who would betray Him, the verse does NOT say Judas was a devil from the beginning.

John 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. (67) Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" So it IS possible that disciples can turn from Christ and walk no more with Him. The 'also' in v67 shows that it was even possible for His own Apostles to also to turn back and walk no more with Him.

"These words were spoken sorrowfully and with deepest concern lest the Twelve themselves should be swept away by the great defection; nevertheless, the Lord would not force even them. Every man was free to leave if he chose to do so. God's plans always go forward, with or without men's cooperation. Even the Twelve were not indispensable; and, if they had defected, others would have been chosen, and the Master's work would have succeeded just the same. However, the Lord loved those men and earnestly desired their continuance with him." Coffman Comm. on John 6:67
 
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BNR32FAN

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Matthew 10:1,8 "And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.....Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give."

Judas was given power by God to cast out devils, to perform various miracles. Of course, Judas could not do these miracles by himself apart from the power given him by God. So the Apostles performed those miracles by the name of God, that is, by the authority of God with God having given them that power.

Luke 6:13 "And when it was day, he called unto him his (possessive pronoun) disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;"

Judas was as much a disciple of Christ belonging to Christ as much as the other 11. There is no reason to think Judas was an unbeliever than to think the other 11 were unbelievers. Also, there were great sacrifices these 12 had to make to become an Apostle, to leave all and follow Christ, no material or monetary gain to be made, suffer persecutions, etc. No reason at all to think a "faker" would put himself through so much. Jesus discouraged the pretenders from following Him who were not willing to make the necessary sacrifices Luke 9:57-62.

John 6:64 "But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him."

There are two different people/person Jesus is addressing here;
1) those that believe not
2) who (singular) should betray him

Judas is being addressed #2 the one who betrayed Christ not of the unbelievers. Jesus "knew from the beginning" who would betray Him, the verse does NOT say Judas was a devil from the beginning.

John 6:66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. (67) Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" So it IS possible that disciples can turn from Christ and walk no more with Him. The 'also' in v67 shows that it was even possible for His own Apostles to also to turn back and walk no more with Him.

"These words were spoken sorrowfully and with deepest concern lest the Twelve themselves should be swept away by the great defection; nevertheless, the Lord would not force even them. Every man was free to leave if he chose to do so. God's plans always go forward, with or without men's cooperation. Even the Twelve were not indispensable; and, if they had defected, others would have been chosen, and the Master's work would have succeeded just the same. However, the Lord loved those men and earnestly desired their continuance with him." Coffman Comm. on John 6:67

I completely agree that the apostles were capable of failing to abide in Christ. Jesus made that clear in John 15.
 
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