The double standard on "what the government tells me I have to wear"

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,642
14,525
Here
✟1,196,039.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Had an interesting conversation today with my uncle (who I consider to be pretty far right on the political spectrum), and he was on a tangent about "the government telling me I have to wear a mask in stores and out in public is unconstitutional!", and how "I shouldn't be forced to wear something I don't want to just to make others more comfortable!"

I then brought up to him, the fact that he, not even a year prior to mask mandates being introduced, was angry about the fact that in August/September 2019, women's rights organizations in several states won their legal challenge to allow women to go topless in any place a man can.

...their argument was basically the same as his "Why should the government force me to wear a piece of cloth over a particular part of my body when I don't want to, just to make someone else more comfortable?" (and there's not even any public health concerns in play with the latter, just people having their personal religious sensibilities offended)

Figured it'd be an interesting topic to discuss here.

For those who feel that "mask mandates are an infringement of my freedoms, I shouldn't have to wear something I don't want to for the sake of someone else, if they don't like it, they should just stay at home and not come around me", are you of the same position with regards to women's rights groups advocating for the ability to go top-free in any place a man can without any legal ramifications?

...and to take that even one step further, for those who are most ardently anti-mask and very vocal about it, why hasn't there ever been any widespread vocal complaints about "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policies many stores and restaurants have had in place for decades?
 

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,408
15,555
Colorado
✟427,871.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
The argument is so dumb. We share public spaces. And yeah there's some gray area around how far we need to go with public safety (masks during regular flu season? - I say no) but given the various values we generally share, we can easily reason toward masks during covid.

Some extreme outliers may simply not value human life. Too bad for them. We dont count their pov. Thats the civilization we mostly (want to) have.
 
Upvote 0

Rene Loup

Left the pack, joined the flock.
Apr 13, 2020
1,147
1,161
Canada
✟62,140.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I then brought up to him, the fact that he, not even a year prior to mask mandates being introduced, was angry about the fact that in August/September 2019, women's rights organizations in several states won their legal challenge to allow women to go topless in any place a man can.

...their argument was basically the same as his "Why should the government force me to wear a piece of cloth over a particular part of my body when I don't want to, just to make someone else more comfortable?" (and there's not even any public health concerns in play with the latter, just people having their personal religious sensibilities offended)

My own two cents on that would be an essay I have read, and a book I have not read yet but was given a summary: The Fate of Empires (1978) by Sir John Bagot Glubb,[1] and Sex & Culture (1934) by J.D. Unwin,[2] respectively.

These two pieces of history literature argue that a cultural obsession with sex is a common sign of a civilization in decline. While I am aware there are numerous tribal societies where female toplessness is socially acceptable, integrating this sort of thing in a Western country could open the door to other things. All the proof I need for the existence of the Slippery Slope argument is this simple reality: Movies, music, and TV shows I grew up watching being considered absolutely scandalous by my Grandparent's generation.

Now, before anyone accuses me of clutching my pearls, just know when I was around the age of thirteen, I wondered, "How was I so unlucky to be born in Canada and not Tahiti..."
  1. http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf
  2. Sex and culture [electronic resource] : Unwin, J. D. (Joseph Daniel), 1895-1936. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,408
15,555
Colorado
✟427,871.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
...These two pieces of history literature argue that a cultural obsession with sex is a common sign of a civilization in decline....
Im not sure which culture is more obsessed though. The puritanical one or the libertine one. You could argue for either. Maybe its a tie?
 
Upvote 0

nonaeroterraqueous

Nonexistent Member
Aug 16, 2014
2,915
2,724
✟188,987.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
are you of the same position with regards to women's rights groups advocating for the ability to go top-free in any place a man can without any legal ramifications?

No, I'm not. The reason is simply that I don't want to see women going around topless. I also don't want to see them wearing masks.

All laws, generally speaking, should regard safety or morality. People who claim that we should not legislate morality are full of it. Good laws are all about morality. Though you may disagree with me, I don't think there's anything unsafe about not wearing a mask. Likewise, I do think there's plenty of immorality in having women walk around topless in a culture in which this is a sexual turn-on.

why hasn't there ever been any widespread vocal complaints about "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policies many stores and restaurants have had in place for decades?

Because we like things that way.

Being fully clothed and in our right minds makes us civilized. Being masked makes us weird. Subjective? Yes, but I don't apologize.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zippy2006
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,642
14,525
Here
✟1,196,039.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The argument is so dumb. We share public spaces. And yeah there's some gray area around how far we need to go with public safety (masks during regular flu season? - I say no) but given the various values we generally share, we can easily reason toward masks during covid.

Some extreme outliers may simply not value human life. Too bad for them. We dont count their pov. Thats the civilization we mostly (want to) have.

Obviously...

Public spaces are shared, and especially during a pandemic scenario, one person's "freedom to not wear a mask" could result in another person taking the virus home to a compromised person.


My statement was more about the underlying argument we hear from many who have recently been vocal in their opinion "the government doesn't have the right to tell me I have to wear something I don't wanna just for someone else's comfort level"...but then

A) have never complained about "dress codes" in the past
B) would probably freak out about the prospect that women could go topless on a beach and that "shreek, someone may see a nipple that's not attached to a male body"
 
Upvote 0

Rene Loup

Left the pack, joined the flock.
Apr 13, 2020
1,147
1,161
Canada
✟62,140.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Im not sure which culture is more obsessed though. The puritanical one or the libertine one. You could argue for either. Maybe its a tie?

These two are talking about lax sexual morals and putting sexual activity on a pedestal. Puritanical views on sex are attempting to enforce standards to minimize the effects the sexual immorality.

Effects of sexual immorality include but NOT limited to abortion,[1] sexually transmitted diseases,[2] social and psychological ramifications of promiscuity,[3] single parent families and the effects it has on the children,[4] which require LOTS and LOTS of taxpayer money to repair.[5][6][7]

So my question is, if an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is worth risking this level of damage to society, what does that say about us as a culture?
  1. Abortion Rates by Country 2020, worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/abortion-rates-by-country
  2. “STD Rates Continue to Rise in the U.S.” WebMD, WebMD, 8 Oct. 2019, www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/news/20191008/std-rates-continue-to-rise-in-the-us#1.
  3. Whitbourne, Susan Krauss. “How Casual Sex Can Affect Our Mental Health.” Psychology Today, Sussex Publishers, 9 Mar. 2013, www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201303/how-casual-sex-can-affect-our-mental-health.
  4. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e3d/640709c889472858054c8fe3df01cca051d8.pdf
  5. Clark Merrefield, Journalist's Resource April 19. “The Multi-Trillion Dollar Cost of Sexual Violence in the U.S.” Journalist's Resource, 19 Apr. 2019, journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/ecnonomic-cost-sexual-violence/.
  6. “CDC Sexually Transmitted Infection Costs (STIC) Figure and User's Manual.” NCSD, www.ncsddc.org/resource/cdc-sexually-transmitted-infection-costs-stic-figure-and-users-manual/.
  7. Report • By James Lin and Jared Bernstein • October 29. “What We Need to Get by: A Basic Standard of Living Costs $48,778, and Nearly a Third of Families Fall Short.” Economic Policy Institute, www.epi.org/publication/bp224/.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,408
15,555
Colorado
✟427,871.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Obviously...

Public spaces are shared, and especially during a pandemic scenario, one person's "freedom to not wear a mask" could result in another person taking the virus home to a compromised person.


My statement was more about the underlying argument we hear from many who have recently been vocal in their opinion "the government doesn't have the right to tell me I have to wear something I don't wanna just for someone else's comfort level"...but then

A) have never complained about "dress codes" in the past
B) would probably freak out about the prospect that women could go topless on a beach and that "shreek, someone may see a nipple that's not attached to a male body"
Sounds like your question is more: why are people such lousy moral philosophers? I cant really tell you why people fail to examine the contradictions in their own reasonings.
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,642
14,525
Here
✟1,196,039.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
No, I'm not. The reason is simply that I don't want to see women going around topless. I also don't want to see them wearing masks.

All laws, generally speaking, should regard safety or morality. People who claim that we should not legislate morality are full of it. Good laws are all about morality. Though you may disagree with me, I don't think there's anything unsafe about not wearing a mask. Likewise, I do think there's plenty of immorality in having women walk around topless in a culture in which this is a sexual turn-on.

There's a difference between objective morality, and subjective morality based on religious preference...

Because we like things that way.

Being fully clothed and in our right minds makes us civilized. Being masked makes us weird. Subjective? Yes, but I don't apologize.

Whether or not someone is "fully clothed" making them more civilized is subjective
Whether or not wearing a mask is "weird" to some is subjective

The implications with regards to public safety is not subjective. A woman tanning topless at the beach presents absolutely no risk of giving me any sort of pathogen or harming me in any way. A person inside a building with recycled air, potentially spreading a deadly virus, does.

As far as "we like things that way". Who's "we"?

Polling indicates that nearly 80% are in support of masking. So why should the 20%'s opinion matter more than the 80%'s in that regard?...but the 36% who agree with allowing toplessness be dismissed as "they're not the majority" on the other topic?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

durangodawood

Dis Member
Aug 28, 2007
23,408
15,555
Colorado
✟427,871.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
These two are talking about lax sexual morals and putting sexual activity on a pedestal. Puritanical views on sex are attempting to enforce standards to minimize the effects the sexual immorality.

Effects of sexual immorality include but NOT limited to abortion,[1] sexually transmitted diseases,[2] social and psychological ramifications of promiscuity,[3] single parent families and the effects it has on the children,[4] which require LOTS and LOTS of taxpayer money to repair.[5][6][7]

So my question is, if an [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] is worth risking this level of damage to society, what does that say about us as a culture?
  1. Abortion Rates by Country 2020, worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/abortion-rates-by-country
  2. “STD Rates Continue to Rise in the U.S.” WebMD, WebMD, 8 Oct. 2019, www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/news/20191008/std-rates-continue-to-rise-in-the-us#1.
  3. Whitbourne, Susan Krauss. “How Casual Sex Can Affect Our Mental Health.” Psychology Today, Sussex Publishers, 9 Mar. 2013, www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201303/how-casual-sex-can-affect-our-mental-health.
  4. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e3d/640709c889472858054c8fe3df01cca051d8.pdf
  5. Clark Merrefield, Journalist's Resource April 19. “The Multi-Trillion Dollar Cost of Sexual Violence in the U.S.” Journalist's Resource, 19 Apr. 2019, journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/ecnonomic-cost-sexual-violence/.
  6. “CDC Sexually Transmitted Infection Costs (STIC) Figure and User's Manual.” NCSD, www.ncsddc.org/resource/cdc-sexually-transmitted-infection-costs-stic-figure-and-users-manual/.
  7. Report • By James Lin and Jared Bernstein • October 29. “What We Need to Get by: A Basic Standard of Living Costs $48,778, and Nearly a Third of Families Fall Short.” Economic Policy Institute, www.epi.org/publication/bp224/.
My take is its the puritan attitude that constitutes sexual immorality, resulting in ignorant dangerous sex that leads to abortions, stds, unwanted children, etc.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
B) would probably freak out about the prospect that women could go topless on a beach and that "shreek, someone may see a nipple that's not attached to a male body"
Within living memory, men weren't allowed to go topless at the beach, either.
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,642
14,525
Here
✟1,196,039.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Within living memory, men weren't allowed to go topless at the beach, either.

Anytime I've ever been to a beach...I've seen some hefty dudes who've boldly decided to rock a Speedo, who are far more "amply equipped in the chestal region" than some of the women there. So maybe that was for good reason lol
 
  • Haha
Reactions: wing2000
Upvote 0

Rene Loup

Left the pack, joined the flock.
Apr 13, 2020
1,147
1,161
Canada
✟62,140.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
My take is its the puritan attitude that constitutes sexual immorality, resulting in ignorant dangerous sex that leads to abortions, stds, unwanted children, etc.

What is your solution(s) to the sexual immorality problems I have pointed out in my previous post?
If it involves any sort of stimulus package, may you provide an estimate of the costs?
May you also provide evidence of its effectiveness?
If so, would you say it is more practical than a monogamous, heterosexual marriage?

Please and thank you.
 
Upvote 0

Hazelelponi

I'm back
Supporter
Jun 25, 2018
9,210
8,688
55
USA
✟676,606.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Had an interesting conversation today with my uncle (who I consider to be pretty far right on the political spectrum), and he was on a tangent about "the government telling me I have to wear a mask in stores and out in public is unconstitutional!", and how "I shouldn't be forced to wear something I don't want to just to make others more comfortable!"

I then brought up to him, the fact that he, not even a year prior to mask mandates being introduced, was angry about the fact that in August/September 2019, women's rights organizations in several states won their legal challenge to allow women to go topless in any place a man can.

...their argument was basically the same as his "Why should the government force me to wear a piece of cloth over a particular part of my body when I don't want to, just to make someone else more comfortable?" (and there's not even any public health concerns in play with the latter, just people having their personal religious sensibilities offended)

Figured it'd be an interesting topic to discuss here.

For those who feel that "mask mandates are an infringement of my freedoms, I shouldn't have to wear something I don't want to for the sake of someone else, if they don't like it, they should just stay at home and not come around me", are you of the same position with regards to women's rights groups advocating for the ability to go top-free in any place a man can without any legal ramifications?

...and to take that even one step further, for those who are most ardently anti-mask and very vocal about it, why hasn't there ever been any widespread vocal complaints about "no shirt, no shoes, no service" policies many stores and restaurants have had in place for decades?

Is he a man of faith? If so, the answer is simple. We are called to be at peace with all men as much as is possible, and to follow the laws of the nation we are in, unless they are in conflict with Gods law.

From a political perspective as a voting citizen, I think masks are ineffectual on everything but others' mental health, and I'm truly worrying at this point about the mental health of many in this country... no one thinks for themselves anymore and many act like they need anti psychotics..
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Darkhorse
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,625
81
St Charles, IL
✟347,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Is he a man of faith? If so, the answer is simple. We are called to be at peace with all men as much as is possible, and to follow the laws of the nation we are in, unless they are in conflict with Gods law.

From a political perspective as a voting citizen, I think masks are ineffectual on everything but others' mental health, and I'm truly worrying at this point about the mental health of many in this country... no one thinks for themselves anymore and many act like they need anti psychotics..
So am I. Some of the things I hear from anti-maskers are really disturbing--like that mask mandates are conditioning us for the Great Reset.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

nonaeroterraqueous

Nonexistent Member
Aug 16, 2014
2,915
2,724
✟188,987.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
There's a difference between objective morality, and subjective morality based on religious preference...

Religion is objective. It's a defined standard that people can follow. Otherwise, we're just animated sacks of chemicals, and everything is a matter of preference, even when it comes to preferring not to run a knife through one of these sacks of chemicals.

You got it exactly backward. You want to stay alive and not be killed? On what basis do you demand such? Because you want to stay alive? That's subjective.

On the other hand, if God tells a man not to murder you, then that's an objective truth. It's either true that there is a God and that he thinks you should live, or else it's false.

Whether or not someone is "fully clothed" making them more civilized is subjective
Whether or not wearing a mask is "weird" to some is subjective

Maybe, but it's my subjectivity. What happens inside my mind is of utmost importance to me.

The implications with regards to public safety is not subjective. A woman tanning topless at the beach presents absolutely no risk of giving me any sort of pathogen or harming me in any way. A person inside a building with recycled air, potentially spreading a deadly virus, does.

A woman tanning topless at a beach presents all manner of risk, but the risk is not the kind that you care about, nor is it immediate and personal.

A woman not wearing a mask seems risky to you, but not to me. The implication to public safety is not subjective. It's just false.

As far as "we like things that way". Who's "we"?

You already defined it, yourself. What did you mean in the OP, when you said, "You?" Why do you ask a defined group of people what they think, and then ask them who they are? Did you forget, already?

Polling indicates that nearly 80% are in support of masking. So why should the 20%'s opinion matter more than the 80%'s in that regard?

Why should your opinion ever matter to me? Argumentum Ad populum?! Truth is very undemocratic. The opinions of others don't dictate what I like or dislike. Majority does not determine truth. Masses are fickle stupid blobs that change from day to day. They're easily manipulated.


...but the 36% who agree with allowing toplessness be dismissed as "they're not the majority" on the other topic?

I never appealed to majority. I never would. I appeal to my own opinion, because I really do think what I think.

I also appeal to what I think God thinks.

The majority will, quite literally, go to Hell.
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,642
14,525
Here
✟1,196,039.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Is he a man of faith? If so, the answer is simple. We are called to be at peace with all men as much as is possible, and to follow the laws of the nation we are in, unless they are in conflict with Gods law.

From a political perspective as a voting citizen, I think masks are ineffectual on everything but others' mental health, and I'm truly worrying at this point about the mental health of many in this country... no one thinks for themselves anymore and many act like they need anti psychotics..

He is religious if that's what you're referring to...

However, his underlying argument was that "someone making me wear something I don't want to wear is an infringement, and if others don't like that I'm not wearing it at a store, then they should be the ones to stay home"

But he had a total polar opposite view when it came to feminist groups making a very similar argument which is "if I don't want to wear a top at a beach or any other area where a man doesn't have to, I shouldn't be forced to, if someone doesn't like it, then they should stay home and shouldn't come to the beach where I'm at"

In terms of the scientific aspect, which is another part of the conversation, I've yet to see any evidence that mask wearing is leading to any sort of mental health effects. One can reasonably make that claim about the social isolations aspects of the restrictions, as those are well documented. But I'm unaware of any study or data that would indicate that wearing a cloth face covering in walmart (instead of not wearing one) is leading to any sort of increase in mental health issues.
 
  • Like
Reactions: whatbogsends
Upvote 0

Hazelelponi

I'm back
Supporter
Jun 25, 2018
9,210
8,688
55
USA
✟676,606.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
He is religious if that's what you're referring to...

However, his underlying argument was that "someone making me wear something I don't want to wear is an infringement, and if others don't like that I'm not wearing it at a store, then they should be the ones to stay home"

But he had a total polar opposite view when it came to feminist groups making a very similar argument which is "if I don't want to wear a top at a beach or any other area where a man doesn't have to, I shouldn't be forced to, if someone doesn't like it, then they should stay home and shouldn't come to the beach where I'm at"

In terms of the scientific aspect, which is another part of the conversation, I've yet to see any evidence that mask wearing is leading to any sort of mental health effects. One can reasonably make that claim about the social isolations aspects of the restrictions, as those are well documented. But I'm unaware of any study or data that would indicate that wearing a cloth face covering in walmart (instead of not wearing one) is leading to any sort of increase in mental health issues.

If he's a man of faith use Scripture then..

He can be upset and against it from a political standpoint, but it doesn't change Scripture.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Darkhorse
Upvote 0

Hazelelponi

I'm back
Supporter
Jun 25, 2018
9,210
8,688
55
USA
✟676,606.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I've yet to see any evidence that mask wearing is leading to any sort of mental health effects.

Yes it does... it's keeping the sky is falling types feeling comfortable.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
24,642
14,525
Here
✟1,196,039.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Religion is objective. It's a defined standard that people can follow. Otherwise, we're just animated sacks of chemicals, and everything is a matter of preference, even when it comes to preferring not to run a knife through one of these sacks of chemicals.

If everyone who claimed to follow it, followed it to the letter it would be objective...however people follow it in a very subjective manner.

IE: they prioritize the "sins" they feel are more offensive to them personally as being "worse" than others, or they over-demonize the ones that they, themselves, have an easier time "abstaining" from.

For instance:
Bible speaks against gluttony, even equates it with a form of idolatry...yet, it's not uncommon to sit in a Southern Baptist sermon where they rail on the "evils of homosexuality and adultery and secular music" for 90 mins, then everyone files out and heads to the after-Church buffet style pot-luck to shovel in deep fried food and cake.

A woman tanning topless at a beach presents all manner of risk, but the risk is not the kind that you care about, nor is it immediate and personal.

Skin cancer?

Why should your opinion ever matter to me?

It shouldn't...nor should your opinion matter to a woman who wants to tan topless on a beach where men are allowed to go shirtless... So we're right back to square one.
 
Upvote 0