Did Paul have knowledge of Moses and the Law before conversion?

Studyman said:

That's an interesting perspective.

It reminds me of Paul's words in Acts 24.

But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

And again;

Heb. 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

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Interpretations as God's revelation belong to God. We can dream when we awake the healer is still there! as spoken of David.

Yes they refused to believe God's understanding or interpretation, sola scriptura (all things written in the law and prophets) but trusted in their own heresy (I heard it through the grape vine, opinion as heresies of men) They must call venerable ones fathers, kings and princes. They called sola scriptura heresy so that they could venerate their own teaching master. " I heard it through the grape vine" making all things written in the law and prophets to no effect. In doing so whatsoever their own mouth declared seeing "no evil" in making the word of God (sola scriptura) Showing us the Holy Spirit had sent a strong delusion so they could continue to be faithless. They then in spite added a "queen of heaven" to show that had no use for sola scriptura the things of God not seen. . . mocking the spirit of judgment.

Jerimiah 44: 16-17 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

The same kind of abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel. Kings in Israel . It was reformed in the new testament when Jesus said "it is finished" the veil was rent rendering a hierarchy men useless .

The new order introduces a different kingdom of Priest men and woman, Jews and gentiles together holding out the gospel as the bride of Christ. .

No longer slave to the kingdoms of flesh and blood men, the government was restored where it remain today, to the time period of Judges .No out ward representation of venerable men. We can hear and under stand by the power of His gospel word. he warns us of those antichrists (other teaching authorities ) that would seduce us to believe the lie that we do need to have a man seen to teach us and informs us rather to remain in him the one good teaching master .

it I beleive teaches us no man can serve two good masters .One seen mankind the temporal and the other eternal Spirit not seen. A eternal Spirit not a temporal man as us.

garee said:

Interpretations as God's revelation belong to God. We can dream when we awake the healer is still there! as spoken of David.

Yes they refused to believe God's understanding or interpretation, sola scriptura (all things written in the law and prophets) but trusted in their own heresy (I heard it through the grape vine, opinion as heresies of men) They must call venerable ones fathers, kings and princes. They called sola scriptura heresy so that they could venerate their own teaching master. " I heard it through the grape vine" making all things written in the law and prophets to no effect. In doing so whatsoever their own mouth declared seeing "no evil" in making the word of God (sola scriptura) Showing us the Holy Spirit had sent a strong delusion so they could continue to be faithless. They then in spite added a "queen of heaven" to show that had no use for sola scriptura the things of God not seen. . . mocking the spirit of judgment.

Jerimiah 44: 16-17 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

The same kind of abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel. Kings in Israel . It was reformed in the new testament when Jesus said "it is finished" the veil was rent rendering a hierarchy men useless .

The new order introduces a different kingdom of Priest men and woman, Jews and gentiles together holding out the gospel as the bride of Christ. .

No longer slave to the kingdoms of flesh and blood men, the government was restored where it remain today, to the time period of Judges .No out ward representation of venerable men. We can hear and under stand by the power of His gospel word. he warns us of those antichrists (other teaching authorities ) that would seduce us to believe the lie that we do need to have a man seen to teach us and informs us rather to remain in him the one good teaching master .

it I beleive teaches us no man can serve two good masters .One seen mankind the temporal and the other eternal Spirit not seen. A eternal Spirit not a temporal man as us.

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Yes, and here we are today, having been delivered the Oracles of God in our own Homes, in our mind and in our hearts, in order that we, through Faith in the Spirit which inspired them, might have comfort in them.

Rom. 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The one thing I might mention and perhaps ask about.

It seems in the very beginning, that God provided "another voice" in the Garden as a test for Eve and an example for "our learning".

This "other voice" who also quoted some of God's Word, seemed to remain throughout the Bible. Caleb also represents this "choice" between the religious voices that surround us, and what God instructs. In Jesus time this "other voice" was a huge religion whose leaders were Jews.

We were warned over and over that we also must "take Heed" of religious men and their religious philosophies. Men who come in His Name, who preach HE is truly the Christ. Men who call HIM Lord, Lord, men disguised as "Ministers of Righteousness", "Apostles of Christ".

For me the Scriptures, when a man considers "Every Word" of God as Jesus commands, is the perfect and only way to discern between "Winds of Doctrines and Traditions of men, and God's True teaching. Given we have HIS Oracles in our home, we can, in Faith, Let God's Word reveal HIS Doctrines and "Way" and Will.

In almost every case choosing the Word's of the Holy Scriptures over the "widely held" religious doctrines and traditions of the religions of the land they were born into, caused divisions, hard feelings, Anger and Malice.

Given the Bible says all the Word's and examples written in the Holy Scriptures were written specifically for God's New Covenant Church, would it also then be true that we too would be confronted with the "other voice", many of which Calls Jesus their Lord, and are tasked with choosing between what the Word of God says, and the widely accepted religious philosophies of this land we were born into?

After all, the Scriptures do say Israel was "blinded in part" for "our Admonition", as you pointed out, the "veil has been ripped".

2 Cor. 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Not "turn to the religions of the land" or turn to some self proclaimed "Minister of Righteousness", but "Turn to the Lord".

And HE just happened to arrange for the delivery of His Oracles right into our homes.

Great Post Garee.

pescador said:

It says you're in the US and I assume that you're living in the 21st Century, but the language is weird. I looked up these excerpts in my English Bible (NET 2.1); here they are...

"But I confess this to you, that I worship the God of our ancestors according to the Way (which they call a sect), believing everything that is according to the law and that is written in the prophets." Acts 24:14-15

"Therefore we must be wary that, while the promise of entering his rest remains open, none of you may seem to have come short of it. For we had good news proclaimed to us just as they did. But the message they heard did them no good, since they did not join in with those who heard it in faith." Hebrews 4:1-2

Paul's letters were written in Koine Greek, the common language of the Mediterranean world of the time. Any decent English translation should reflect that; the stilted language of early 17th Century England has no place in our day and age.

Also, if you're implying that Paul wrote Hebrews, you're disagreeing with the majority of Biblical scholars.

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I quoted an "English" Bible. Not sure what you are talking about. They say the same thing. and they all agree with the point I'm trying to make.

The Pharisees didn't believe in the "Way of the Lord" which honored the God of the Bible. They had created another way, they were "experts" in this another way Paul called "The Jews religion".

Zacharias followed the true "Way of the Lord", and God revealed Himself to him, as promised. The Pharisees taught for doctrines the commandments of men, not the Commandments of God Zacharias and Simeon "lived by".

A good way to unsure we are getting God's True message is to see if there are other Scriptures which agree.

Ez. 20:11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.

12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out.

and again;

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

And again;

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

And again;

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

So all these, and volumes more Scriptures, all agree with Paul and his telling us that the Pharisees didn't believe in the Law and Prophets in Acts 24. They called a church who followed and believed "all that was written in the Law and Prophets "Heresy" or a cult, or a Sect that they reviled.

All English Translations teach exactly the same thing. This teaching exposes a popular wind of doctrine that the Pharisees were trying to please God or have eternal life by, following God's Law "to the letter", or that the Pharisees were "Experts" in the Law and Prophets.

The Scriptures expose this religious philosophy as from man and not God, which is a major reason why God delivered His Oracles into our home in the first place, so we could discern, test and prove differing religious philosophies from the religions of the land we are born into.

I'll finish the rest of my reply in another post.

Studyman said:

Yes, and here we are today, having been delivered the Oracles of God in our own Homes, in our mind and in our hearts, in order that we, through Faith in the Spirit which inspired them, might have comfort in them.

Rom. 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The one thing I might mention and perhaps ask about.

It seems in the very beginning, that God provided "another voice" in the Garden as a test for Eve and an example for "our learning".

This "other voice" who also quoted some of God's Word, seemed to remain throughout the Bible. Caleb also represents this "choice" between the religious voices that surround us, and what God instructs. In Jesus time this "other voice" was a huge religion whose leaders were Jews.

We were warned over and over that we also must "take Heed" of religious men and their religious philosophies. Men who come in His Name, who preach HE is truly the Christ. Men who call HIM Lord, Lord, men disguised as "Ministers of Righteousness", "Apostles of Christ".

For me the Scriptures, when a man considers "Every Word" of God as Jesus commands, is the perfect and only way to discern between "Winds of Doctrines and Traditions of men, and God's True teaching. Given we have HIS Oracles in our home, we can, in Faith, Let God's Word reveal HIS Doctrines and "Way" and Will.

In almost every case choosing the Word's of the Holy Scriptures over the "widely held" religious doctrines and traditions of the religions of the land they were born into, caused divisions, hard feelings, Anger and Malice.

Given the Bible says all the Word's and examples written in the Holy Scriptures were written specifically for God's New Covenant Church, would it also then be true that we too would be confronted with the "other voice", many of which Calls Jesus their Lord, and are tasked with choosing between what the Word of God says, and the widely accepted religious philosophies of this land we were born into?

After all, the Scriptures do say Israel was "blinded in part" for "our Admonition", as you pointed out, the "veil has been ripped".

2 Cor. 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Not "turn to the religions of the land" or turn to some self proclaimed "Minister of Righteousness", but "Turn to the Lord".

And HE just happened to arrange for the delivery of His Oracles right into our homes.

Great Post Garee.

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I'm not sure which translation you're using, but the spelling and grammar are awful. Here are those (out-of-context) verses in normal English...

Romans 15:4-6, "For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope.

May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you the same attitude of mind toward each other that Christ Jesus had, so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Corinthians 3:14-16, "But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."

Studyman said:

I quoted an "English" Bible. Not sure what you are talking about. They say the same thing. and they all agree with the point I'm trying to make.

The Pharisees didn't believe in the "Way of the Lord" which honored the God of the Bible. They had created another way, they were "experts" in this another way Paul called "The Jews religion".

Zacharias followed the true "Way of the Lord", and God revealed Himself to him, as promised. The Pharisees taught for doctrines the commandments of men, not the Commandments of God Zacharias and Simeon "lived by".

A good way to unsure we are getting God's True message is to see if there are other Scriptures which agree.

Ez. 20:11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.

12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.

14 But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out.

and again;

Mal. 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

And again;

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

And again;

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

So all these, and volumes more Scriptures, all agree with Paul and his telling us that the Pharisees didn't believe in the Law and Prophets in Acts 24. They called a church who followed and believed "all that was written in the Law and Prophets "Heresy" or a cult, or a Sect that they reviled.

All English Translations teach exactly the same thing. This teaching exposes a popular wind of doctrine that the Pharisees were trying to please God or have eternal life by, following God's Law "to the letter", or that the Pharisees were "Experts" in the Law and Prophets.

The Scriptures expose this religious philosophy as from man and not God, which is a major reason why God delivered His Oracles into our home in the first place, so we could discern, test and prove differing religious philosophies from the religions of the land we are born into.

I'll finish the rest of my reply in another post.

Click to expand...

You wrote that "This teaching exposes a popular wind of doctrine that the Pharisees were trying to please God or have eternal life by, following God's Law "to the letter", or that the Pharisees were "Experts" in the Law and Prophets."

Of course, Jesus said just the opposite. "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." Matthew 23:1-3

pescador said:

It says you're in the US and I assume that you're living in the 21st Century, but the language is weird. I looked up these excerpts in my English Bible (NET 2.1); here they are...

"Therefore we must be wary that, while the promise of entering his rest remains open, none of you may seem to have come short of it. For we had good news proclaimed to us just as they did. But the message they heard did them no good, since they did not join in with those who heard it in faith." Hebrews 4:1-2

Paul's letters were written in Koine Greek, the common language of the Mediterranean world of the time. Any decent English translation should reflect that; the stilted language of early 17th Century England has no place in our day and age.

Also, if you're implying that Paul wrote Hebrews, you're disagreeing with the majority of Biblical scholars.

Click to expand...

Your translation is vague, if you compare it with others, you will find the translation "Gospel" is appropriate.

There is a religious doctrine in the religions of the land we are born into, which preaches the Gospel of Christ didn't exist before Paul started teaching it. This is, of course, foolishness. Yet, the very foundation of "many" religions which call Jesus Lord, actually has been convinced of this.

Again, since we have the Oracles of God in our own homes, we can "Study" them in Faith, which means "Belief", like Paul said "Believing all things written in the Law of Prophets", to see if this popular doctrine is from God or not.

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Habakkuk is part of the Law and Prophets where the Gospel of Christ is found.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

God has shown what to them? The same "Good News", or as Paul calls it "the Gospel of Christ" as we are also shown, as Heb. 4 teaches.

Rom. 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

There is only One Gospel, but the examples written for our admonition didn't believe. We are not to follow their example, or else we will also be "Cut off".

Gal. 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Again, agreeing with the Author of Hebrews, the Gospel of Christ was shared with Abraham as well, and Abel no doubt.

And Zacharias also confirms this as he was well versed in the Gospel of Christ before Jesus was even born.

So I didn't find this truth by seek "other voices", rather, I followed Paul's and the Lord's Christ's instruction regarding "ALL that is written".

As far as the Author of Hebrews, I believe it is the same Author as the rest of the Holy Scriptures.

Fervent said:

It seems you're reading more into the title of "expert" than is warranted, because no Christian scholar who claims the pharisee's were experts on the law claims that they were correct in everything. The statements of Christ towards them is exactly as I said, they added and subtracted from the law in an unjust manner.

I won't get into an interpretive flame war with regard to Acts 26, but I will point out in order to arrive at your conclusion you've had to inject editorial information that need not be there.

It wasn't pharisaism that caused the men to stone Christians, nor was that a mark of being a pharisee. The whole of pharisaism is in their eschatology, an eschatology that was closest to what was revealed in Christ. Because they studied the Scriptures.

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This is your belief and you are free to believe it. This is the implication that I mentioned that you were upset about. This implication here, is that it wasn't the religious philosophy which taught for doctrines the commandments of men, which caused the Pharisees to murder the Prophets, Stephen and Jesus, rather, you are implying it was their expertise in God's Word that directed them to murder innocent people.

That they were just following God's Law to the letter, and that is why they killed the obedient servants of God.

That they were simply victims of studying God's Laws and following them "to the letter".

And the example of Zacharias who WAS an expert in God's Laws and Commandments, because he walked in them, has been disqualified by you as relevant to this discussion. I think this is also a mistake.

I just disagree with you, because of what the scriptures say. I have made my case, and you don't agree. That's fine, all I have are the scriptures.

Thanks for the rigorous discussion. You have a great day

pescador said:

You wrote that "This teaching exposes a popular wind of doctrine that the Pharisees were trying to please God or have eternal life by, following God's Law "to the letter", or that the Pharisees were "Experts" in the Law and Prophets."

Of course, Jesus said just the opposite. "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." Matthew 23:1-3

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Again, you are omitting a most important Truth. There was no other way to hear God's Word, except to hear Him being "READ" in the Synagogues.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

But don't do what they do. Why??? Because they are liars, thieves, Hypocrites and Children of the devil.

This is the danger of taking one scriptures and trying to twist it order to use it to beat up or make void so many other scriptures.

4 For they (Pharisees, not God as "many" preach) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Are you really preaching to the world that Jesus is telling His disciples to "Do this" work of the Pharisees?

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Are you really preaching to the world that Jesus is telling us to "do and observe" this?

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Are you really preaching that Jesus is commanding me to "Do and observe" what the Pharisees were doing?

Or is it the Truth that Jesus wanted the People, and His Disciples, to listen and obey Moses, as HE did.

Will you be persuaded?

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Studyman said:

This is your belief and you are free to believe it. This is the implication that I mentioned that you were upset about. This implication here, is that it wasn't the religious philosophy which taught for doctrines the commandments of men, which caused the Pharisees to murder the Prophets, Stephen and Jesus, rather, you are implying it was their expertise in God's Word that directed them to murder innocent people.

That they were just following God's Law to the letter, and that is why they killed the obedient servants of God.

That they were simply victims of studying God's Laws and following them "to the letter".

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I never said anything approaching that, never said anything about them following to the letter. The question is whether the pharisee's could be considered experts on the Scriptures, whether they had knowledge of them, and whether Paul's knowledge as a pharisee is something that carried over into his life as an apostle. The letter killing is due to sin grasping the letter and twisting it, not the letter itself. The pharisee's were experts in the same sense that someone like Bart Ehrman is an expert, they spent their lives dedicated to reading and attempting to understand the Scriptures. Paul's knowledge as a Pharisee allowed him to make sense of the NT theology once he apprehended that Jesus was the Christ.

Studyman said:

And the example of Zacharias who WAS an expert in God's Laws and Commandments, because he walked in them, has been disqualified by you as relevant to this discussion. I think this is also a mistake.

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No, speculation as to what separated Zacharias from the Pharisee's not based on direct Scriptural evidence was discarded as not relevant. Especially because in all likelihood Zacharias was a pharisee given the order of temple service he belonged to.

Studyman said:

I just disagree with you, because of what the scriptures say. I have made my case, and you don't agree. That's fine, all I have are the scriptures.

Thanks for the rigorous discussion. You have a great day

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You haven't really made a case, just restated the same objections, editorial commentary, and speculation. The contextual reading of Acts 24-26 is that Paul was appealing to the common ground between himself and his accusers, pointing out that the separation between them was on a single theological question. Paul's defense was that he had taught nothing against the Jewish laws, with an expectation that his accusers would be able to understand his theological arguments.

Studyman said:

Again, you are omitting a most important Truth. There was no other way to hear God's Word, except to hear Him being "READ" in the Synagogues.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

But don't do what they do. Why??? Because they are liars, thieves, Hypocrites and Children of the devil.

This is the danger of taking one scriptures and trying to twist it order to use it to beat up or make void so many other scriptures.

4 For they (Pharisees, not God as "many" preach) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Are you really preaching to the world that Jesus is telling His disciples to "Do this" work of the Pharisees?

15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Are you really preaching to the world that Jesus is telling us to "do and observe" this?

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Are you really preaching that Jesus is commanding me to "Do and observe" what the Pharisees were doing?

Or is it the Truth that Jesus wanted the People, and His Disciples, to listen and obey Moses, as HE did.

Will you be persuaded?

Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

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This is has nothing to do with what I wrote and nothing to do with the subject of the OP.

pescador said:

This is has nothing to do with what I wrote and nothing to do with the subject of the OP.

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I simply responded to your own words.

"You wrote that "This teaching exposes a popular wind of doctrine that the Pharisees were trying to please God or have eternal life by, following God's Law "to the letter", or that the Pharisees were "Experts" in the Law and Prophets."

Of course, Jesus said just the opposite. "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you."

I asked you questions regarding your use of the Christ's Words here to promote your religious philosophy.

But you chose to deflect instead of answer, as is your custom.

We have a fundamental disagreement here.

You are promoting a religious philosophy which teaches that Jesus Commanded His Disciples, and the multitudes to "listen to and then do everything the Pharisees, AKA "children of the devil", said to do".

My understanding here is that Jesus commanded His Disciples and the multitudes to listen to and then do what Moses said to do, like Love God and Love your neighbor etc., being read in the Synagogues each Sabbath. Because the Scribes and Pharisees were the only people on the planet at that time, who had access to the "Oracles of God". How else were people going to hear what God instructed?

The Scribes and Pharisees read the Commandments of God, but they didn't believe in Him, and didn't Glorify HIM as God, instead they "taught for doctrines the Commandments of men".

But alas, you can not be persuaded as it is written;

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Carl Emerson said:

Good responses thanks...

This is what 'one among us' said...
============================
I just posted scriptures where Paul Himself tells us what he was an expert in. HE says "the traditions of his fathers" "Jews religion". He said where his religion came from "at the feet of Gameliel" not Moses. I also posted the Christ's own Words, as well as others, which teach that the "Jews Religion" and the "tradition of the fathers" were not from God or God's Law. Jesus said they didn't even believe Moses. He said their father was satan.
===========================

The thread is here...

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Let's TALK about debate!
What I was trying to get across is that the Scriptures without the Spirit were Satans weapon of choice during the temptation in the wilderness.
I was also quoting the verse
"the letter kills but the Spirit gives life..." and saying that the letter refers to the Law.

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You haven't lost the plot.

The letter (law) kills because the letter subjects to death everyone who does not keep it perfectly,
everyone who is not perfectly righteous.

I was also saying the Pharisees knew the Word backwards including the Law but didn't recognise the Author when He arrived and killed His followers.

Concluding then - the Word without the Spirit is deadly

I was also saying that we would have less arguments on CF if we all were hearing the Spirit before expounding on the Word.

And for my efforts to lay bare the Truth I am considered to be expounding some religious philosophy !!

Thanks for helping me to be assured I haven't lost the plot !!!

I just say it as it is - and I guess noses get put out of joint...

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Carl Emerson said:

...Paul ... knowledgeable concerning Moses and the Law before conversion...I have always had the impression that he was quite well informed in such matters...

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Yes. Me too.

Carl Emerson said:

...One among us is adamant that Paul was not knowledgeable concerning Moses and the Law before conversion.

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This bit is interesting. I'm wondering to myself - why would I care if someone thought one thing or the other??
Argument perhaps? I'd be interested to know what the person thought and why (not to criticise - just as a curiosity).

Studyman said:

I simply responded to your own words.

"You wrote that "This teaching exposes a popular wind of doctrine that the Pharisees were trying to please God or have eternal life by, following God's Law "to the letter", or that the Pharisees were "Experts" in the Law and Prophets."

Of course, Jesus said just the opposite. "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you."

I asked you questions regarding your use of the Christ's Words here to promote your religious philosophy.

But you chose to deflect instead of answer, as is your custom.

We have a fundamental disagreement here.

You are promoting a religious philosophy which teaches that Jesus Commanded His Disciples, and the multitudes to "listen to and then do everything the Pharisees, AKA "children of the devil", said to do".

My understanding here is that Jesus commanded His Disciples and the multitudes to listen to and then do what Moses said to do, like Love God and Love your neighbor etc., being read in the Synagogues each Sabbath. Because the Scribes and Pharisees were the only people on the planet at that time, who had access to the "Oracles of God". How else were people going to hear what God instructed?

The Scribes and Pharisees read the Commandments of God, but they didn't believe in Him, and didn't Glorify HIM as God, instead they "taught for doctrines the Commandments of men".

But alas, you can not be persuaded as it is written;

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Click to expand...

I will not discuss this any further with you. When you stop distorting what I wrote, let me know.

Carl Emerson said:

Good responses thanks...

This is what 'one among us' said...
============================
I just posted scriptures where Paul Himself tells us what he was an expert in. HE says "the traditions of his fathers" "Jews religion". He said where his religion came from "at the feet of Gameliel" not Moses. I also posted the Christ's own Words, as well as others, which teach that the "Jews Religion" and the "tradition of the fathers" were not from God or God's Law. Jesus said they didn't even believe Moses. He said their father was satan.
===========================

The thread is here...
Let's TALK about debate!

What I was trying to get across is that the Scriptures without the Spirit were Satans weapon of choice during the temptation in the wilderness.

I was also quoting the verse "the letter kills but the Spirit gives life..." and saying that the letter refers to the Law.

I was also saying the Pharisees knew the Word backwards including the Law but didn't recognise the Author when He arrived and killed His followers.

Concluding then - the Word without the Spirit is deadly

I was also saying that we would have less arguments on CF if we all were hearing the Spirit before expounding on the Word.

And for my efforts to lay bare the Truth I am considered to be expounding some religious philosophy !!

Thanks for helping me to be assured I haven't lost the plot !!!

I just say it as it is - and I guess noses get put out of joint...

Click to expand...

Matthew 23
King James Version

23 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

read to here

Confused-by-christianity said:

Yes. Me too.

This bit is interesting. I'm wondering to myself - why would I care if someone thought one thing or the other??
Argument perhaps? I'd be interested to know what the person thought and why (not to criticise - just as a curiosity).

Click to expand...

The OP was referring to me, and is a misrepresentation of my position. Of course he knows I never said or implied that Paul, before conversion, didn't know anything about Moses.

My argument is that before conversion, Paul was an expert in the religious traditions of the Jews, whose "Experts", according to Jesus, were "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men". A religion that the Law and Prophets said led people away from God. A religion which was founded in part, by a disbelief in Moses, a religion which despised God's Sabbaths, and a religion founded on philosophies of men who "Omitted" much of God's Law given to Moses.

Religious men who the Bible said God Blinded for these actions.

But a popular religious philosophy of the land I was born into, teaches that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation be keeping God's Laws. And "others" claim the Pharisees were "Experts in the Laws and Prophets". How can men, blinded by God, men who reject and omit God's Laws, men who teach for doctrines the commandments of men and not God, who transgress God's Commandments by their own religious traditions, who didn't believe Moses, and who Jesus said were "children of the devil, who killed the Prophets first, then the Word of God Himself, and then killed Stephen, who Jesus said "Didn't know God". How can these men be experts in the Law and Prophets?

The Truth is they were not experts in the Law and Prophets, they were experts in their own religion they created in God's Name.

I also went about to show the difference between how the Holy Scriptures defined Zacharias, and I compared these inspired Word's of the Christ to how this same Christ defined the Pharisees. It becomes obvious when reading about Zacharias, that he was truly an Expert in the Law and Prophets, he knew God, and he knew the Christ when HE came to them, while those who the Author of the OP preaches were "Experts" in the Law and Prophets, didn't know God, and didn't know Jesus when HE came. I found this comparison very relevant to this discussion.

But this comparison is rejected by many for some unknown reason. I'm not sure why but it seems pointing out the obvious difference Jesus made between the Pharisees and Zacharias is a "speculation".

I also posted Paul's words in Rom. 10.

Rom. 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

This fits perfectly with the point I was trying to make. I asked, "Why was Israel "ignorant" of God's Righteousness?

Of course the answer is their religious leaders promoted their own religious philosophies which was contrary to the Law and Prophets. But this too, was deemed irrelevant to this discussion and was dismissed.

I really appreciate your curiosity and the opportunity to explain why I challenged this popular religious philosophy.

So there is the perspective from the person the OP referenced. I appreciate you asking.

Daniel Marsh said:

Matthew 23
King James Version

23 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Click to expand...

Here is the translation of the above into English (the entire paragraph)...

Matthew 23:1-4, "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."

What are the numbers: 23, 2, and 3? They're not part of Scripture, so why are they there?
What does "spake" mean? I haven't heard that word spoken by anyone, ever.
Why should anyone "observe" what they said? Were their words visible?
What on earth does "but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not" mean?

pescador said:

Here is the translation of the above into English (the entire paragraph)...

Matthew 23:1-4, "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."

What are the numbers: 23, 2, and 3? They're not part of Scripture, so why are they there?
What does "spake" mean? I haven't heard that word spoken by anyone, ever.
Why should anyone "observe" what they said? Were their words visible?
What on earth does "but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not" mean?

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I love your sense of humor friend. spake is king james of 1611 for speak or spoke.

Numbers were added to help find verses.

The Jewish leaders were correct in their understanding on ethics which is what Jesus told them to obey.

Studyman said:

He was a Pharisee. They were "children of the devil" according to Jesus. Hypocrite and liars. Paul followed their religion and their law "perfectly" the same way a Cardinal is an "expert" on Catholicism and follows their law faultless. But they didn't follow the Law of Moses, they weren't experts on the Law and Prophets. Paul said they considered the Law and Prophets "Heresy" (Acts 24)

How are these biblical truths not relevant to this discussion?

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Probably because it's clear to anyone even semi-literate in Scripture and history that you don't have the first clue as to what you're saying.

-CryptoLutheran