What If Everyone Did It?

John Helpher · Jan 11, 2021

Hi all. This post is inspired by some exchanges I had on a different thread about literally obeying the teachings of Jesus in the areas of materialism, helping the poor, working for money, and going into all the world preaching the gospel.

My understanding is that Jesus calls all Christians to obey these teachings quite literally, much in the same way he and his own disciples, (and then thousands of Christians in the book of Acts) did.

There was some feedback expressing some doubt as to whether this was practical or even feasible. What would happen if everyone stopped working for money? What would happen if everyone forsook their possessions and started sharing all things in common? Would the world break down into chaos?

I think the opposite is true; I think we would be practicing Heaven on Earth, just as Jesus said we should pray for in the Lord's prayer (i.e. "Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven").

So, for anyone who has similar questions as to how it could possibly work and what it might look like and whether this really is what God wants, I found this video to be helpful. The narrator presents 2 different approaches to the "what if" question; grumpy and enthusiastic.

I personally tend toward the grumpy explanation (sorry everyone; I'm trying to work on that!) but I was very much encouraged by the enthusiastic explanation which I find difficult to articulate in my own words sometimes, but it is essentially that God wants everyone to work for love. He wants us to use our time, our skills, and our resources to pursue goodness for its own sake rather than using our time and skills to chase after money because we're afraid we'll die if we don't. When you compare the two scenarios, one is infinitely more depressing!

Anyway, I look forward to hearing what people think. Since I've already posted a thread specifically dealing with what the actual teachings are, I would like for people to focus mostly on the concept of what if. For a moment, set aside whatever various cynical points of view you may have about this all being a fantasy or just for someone else and share how it could possibly work if we really tried. What would it look like if every Christian helped one another just because we wanted to, and not for payment?

Petros2015 · Jan 11, 2021

Tolstoy wrestled with this extensively (and attempted it as well)
He seemed to think that we were meant to follow the teachings "of our own unaided strength"
(which I disagree with and I think is the fundamental flaw of his thought)
Christ after all told us to pray for the Holy Spirit to enable these things; they were not to be done by us but by God through us.

However, the conclusion Tolstoy came to was similar to yours at the end of Chapter 6:

The fulfillment of Christ's commandments will make the lives of men such as each human heart seeks and longs for. All men will be brethren, each will be at peace with the other, and each will be free to enjoy all the blessings of this world during the term of life allotted to him by God. Men will turn their 'swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks.' And on earth will be established the kingdom of God; the kingdom of peace that was promised by the prophets, which drew nearer with John the Baptist, and which Christ announced in the words of Isaiah, 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind; to set at liberty those who are bruised, and to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.'
The simple and clear commandments of peace, given by Christ, by which all causes of dissension are foreseen and turned aside, reveal the kingdom of God on earth to men. Thus Christ is truly the Messiah.

What I Believe : Leo Tolstoy : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

good free audio version
LibriVox

.Mikha'el. · Jan 11, 2021

I don't think that's what people of faith are being asked. I don't believe anything in Scripture condemns having material possessions or being wealthy. But people of faith are to place those things in a subservient position in their lives to religious devotion and to give them up outright if they are called to do so.

John Helpher · Jan 11, 2021

.Mikha'el. said:
I don't think that's what people of faith are being asked. I don't believe anything in Scripture condemns having material possessions or being wealthy. But people of faith are to place those things in a subservient position in their lives to religious devotion and to give them up outright if they are called to do so.

I'm guessing you didn't watch the video?

John Helpher · Jan 11, 2021

Petros2015 said:
they were not to be done by us but by God through us.

I understand. I think this is something we all struggle with, how much is my will and how much is God's will? We must do something to demonstrate faith and and willingness, and yet we will not be perfect and it is possible to "try in our own strength" to do something.

However, I do not think this is a case of God wanting us to do nothing while he does everything "through us". Jesus made it as clear as he could that he expects us to make choices which are consistent with the values of the Kingdom of Heaven. I believe that is what Heaven on Earth is; us making good choices and God intervening in those areas where we fall short.

Llewelyn Stevenson · Jan 11, 2021

I watched the video and I understand the hope but I would say that you would find the Book of Acts shows why this is not so.

Look at Jerusalem and the beginning of the church. They tried this and it led to problems like the provision for widows and orphans and Ananias and Sapphira and the famine. I do believe that Paul helped to bring balance to this.

The question to answer is, do you truly work only for selfish motives? I have truly used my employment and gain for the purposes of sharing and spreading the good news, and I wrote a story about it. Not about me, but the principles I employed and, as I portray in the story, it was with mixed results and still is.

The Old Testament is our example.

Jesus said, "Occupy till I come."

When God sent the children of Judah into Babylon as captives he said, "Build houses and vineyards and trade till I deliver you."

Jesus exhortation is like this.

Business is not evil but how you run it can be.

A job opportunity became available to me after 12 months of unemployment and I took it. It meant working 7 days and only having Christmas Day off. It was hard and it was easy.

God told me, "I gave you this job, enjoy it."

So I did. Ever grateful to him, falling asleep in church because I attended after working half the night, supporting my family as the Scripture commands, meeting my debts, and helping those in need, supporting the spread of the gospel. God is so good when he blesses.

Do I have more than I need? Yes. That is why I can so freely share.

I live by faith. No one makes me feel guilty of this, and I work by faith.

I left all and I followed him and he blessed abundantly as Jesus said he would. I went out without a job, without a home, and witnessed to the goodness of God: even as I do now; and God gave me all that I have: health, work, home, and family.

Recently I told him, "I am ready to do it all over again because I know you will keep me."

You can do what is being suggested in this video if you like but don't be surprised if he leads you back into employment. Just follow where the Lord leads you and beware of hidden motives.

tall73 · Jan 11, 2021

self edit

John Helpher · Jan 11, 2021

tall73 said:
Paul instructed the Thessalonians to continue working, rather than quit their job in light of the second coming.

As I suggested in the OP, there's another thread for debating the work issue.

On this thread I'd like to hear what people think about how millions of Christians working for love could work. It's not a question of whether you should, but rather how it works.

For example, the more people who step out in faith, the more organization we would need. There would need to be some process for sorting out those who have skills with administration who could then organize the various types of skills/labor of others into the most useful or necessary areas and put them to work. We would need social workers who could assess the physical, emotional, material needs of the members and then organize how to meet those needs. We would need outreach coordinators who would develop teams including material for preaching (like pamphlets, books, dvd's, etc) and transport/travel arrangements. We would need accountants to keep track of the finances and resources and to handle the various legal obligations regarding who's name certain items (like cars, houses, etc) should be in. We would need teachers and day care for the kids.

There would be tons of work to do to organize so many people efficiently and to make sure everyone is not only getting what they need, but contributing constructively, but it's definitely workable.

You're welcome to share your various ideas here, though I suppose, since you think you don't have to do it that there would be little point in you wondering about how it would work and if that is the case, then it would be better for you to post your arguments against this idea over on the other thread. I'm hoping this one can be a little more positive. Thanks.

tall73 · Jan 11, 2021

John Helpher said:
A I'm hoping this one can be a little more positive. Thanks.

Sorry I did not catch the import of that element in the OP. I have edited my post here and will respond in the other thread.

John Helpher · Jan 11, 2021

tall73 said:
Sorry I did not catch the import of that element in the OP. I have edited my post here and will respond in the other thread.

Thanks.

A_Thinker · Jan 11, 2021

John Helpher said:
For example, the more people who step out in faith, the more organization we would need. There would need to be some process for sorting out those who have skills with administration who could then organize the various types of skills/labor of others into the most useful or necessary areas and put them to work. We would need social workers who could assess the physical, emotional, material needs of the members and then organize how to meet those needs. We would need outreach coordinators who would develop teams including material for preaching (like pamphlets, books, dvd's, etc) and transport/travel arrangements. We would need accountants to keep track of the finances and resources and to handle the various legal obligations regarding who's name certain items (like cars, houses, etc) should be in. We would need teachers and day care for the kids.

There would be tons of work to do to organize so many people efficiently and to make sure everyone is not only getting what they need, but contributing constructively, but it's definitely workable.

You're welcome to share your various ideas here, though I suppose, since you think you don't have to do it that there would be little point in you wondering about how it would work and if that is the case, then it would be better for you to post your arguments against this idea over on the other thread. I'm hoping this one can be a little more positive. Thanks.

Honestly, ... it sounds a bit communistic.

Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but you're putting people in place to determine, in some respect, how others will live their lives.

I remember that, growing up, ... one of the most unappealing aspects of communism, as it was taught to Americans at that time, was that citizens of communistic states ... didn't get much say in what they did with their lives.

It strikes me, that some sort of a balance between self-will and group-will might be more desirable. Of course, if everyone consistently followed the leading of the Spirit, that should eliminate the need for much group guidance. But then, of course, you are dealing in a rather idealistic context, ... where everyone lives fairly perfectly.

And it is clear that those are not our (earthly) circumstances, so that we likely would have to have some sort of oversight as you suggest.

John Helpher · Jan 11, 2021

A_Thinker said:
Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but you're putting people in place to determine, in some respect, how others will live their lives.

Well, yeah. Jesus is the boss. We're required not only to listen to him, but to obey him. He tells us what to do and, as servants, we obey, because he knows better. That's why he's the boss.

A_Thinker · Jan 11, 2021

John Helpher said:
Well, yeah. Jesus is the boss. We're required not only to listen to him, but to obey him. He tells us what to do and, as servants, we obey, because he knows better. That's why he's the boss.

So then, what you are really asking is ... how would it be, ... if everybody consistently followed Jesus' guidance.

I don't think that many believers would disagree that such would be best, ... but unbelievers might disagree ...

John Helpher · Jan 11, 2021

A_Thinker said:
I don't think that many believers would disagree that such would be best,

You'd be surprised. I've had A LOT of dissension regarding this topic. Everyone who reads this post suddenly becomes a wise man rending a hundred reasons why Jesus didn't really mean what he said.

But, the point of this thread is to consider what it would be like if we DID actually obey Jesus literally. Do you have any thoughts on that?

A_Thinker · Jan 11, 2021

John Helpher said:
You'd be surprised. I've had A LOT of dissension regarding this topic. Everyone who reads this post suddenly becomes a wise man rending a hundred reasons why Jesus didn't really mean what he said.

But, the point of this thread is to consider what it would be like if we DID actually obey Jesus literally. Do you have any thoughts on that?

The literal end of your line of thoughts posit a world with "billions" of mini Jesus'.

Though, of course, Jesus didn't marry and have children, ... so perhaps not billions ...

John Helpher · Jan 11, 2021

A_Thinker said:
The literal end of your line of thoughts posit a world with "billions" of mini Jesus'.

Wha? I'm talking about people practicing Jesus' teachings the way he and his follower did, and what that would look like in the world today. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Llewelyn Stevenson · Jan 12, 2021

I tried to show you. living by faith does not exclude working for a living. What is being proposed is actually not Jesus' teaching. I watched the video, and because I do follow Jesus' teaching, I know that it has a wrong set of believing.

Quite frankly I will say to you, if people practiced Jesus'teachings the way he and his followers did, I don't think it would look anything like that. And the pictures he showed happen around the world at this very moment: people giving up time, holidays, and much more to serve those who have needs.

When you think of Jesus' followers, do you only see those who went with him and ministered? Or do you see those who, using their wealth and possessions, supported him? I think of Lazarus, Mary, and Martha who gave, not only Jesus, but those travelling with him a place to stay when he came to Jerusalem. Remember those like them and you will see what it is really like to follow Jesus' teaching. Remember the man who gave his upper room for the last supper, and the one who gave the colt that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

The body has many parts and we need each one to fulfill theirs so that the whole is supplied.

It is not so much what you would do if things were different but, what are you doing with what the Lord has provided you with now?

A_Thinker · Jan 12, 2021

John Helpher said:
Wha? I'm talking about people practicing Jesus' teachings the way he and his follower did, and what that would look like in the world today. Do you have any thoughts on that?

There are people practicing Jesus' teachings the way He and His disciples did. There have been ... since He ascended ...

As a result, a third of the world's population claims His name, ... and His teachings have influenced, even the world, in many significant ways.

mikeforjesus · Jan 12, 2021

I have listened and I would like to follow but I would like to be convinced such a way of life would not affect anyone negatively as someone mentioned people need to look after their own as someone mentioned when Paul said to look after widows. How can we ensure there are enough people willing to treat all for free ? So it seems you need money

How can one gain skills if he does not have money to join places which teach? Is it wrong to work for money if you do not focus on storing it up for yourself ?

The bible explains we should not trust in riches to get us through hard time’s

but if you don’t save how can you ensure you store enough to be able to use money to gain other skills ?
Or to be able to multiply riches to give more to others ?

but if the future will be no one can be treated except by voluntary doctors and God can support people then can He not support people now ?

Ceallaigh · Jan 12, 2021

A cashless society concept was created by Gene Roddenberry for Star Trek. But Roddenberry was a humanist and also wrote anti-christian themes into ST.

What If Everyone Did It?

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