Concerning the Return of Jesus

nolidad

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Revelation 19:1 After this I heard what sounded like a vast throng in heaven......
It does not say the Church.
We are told who they are, in Revelation 6:9-11 they are the souls of all those killed for their testimony of Jesus.
They are dead people, but God does allow them to cry out at times.

Which will come to us, Revelation 21:1-2, NOT we go to it.
Your belief and assumption that people go to heaven is wrong and was never part of God's plan for mankind.


YOu sure you are not a Jehovahs Witness?

YOu follow thier philosoph closely on this and mistranslate the SCriptures very very similar to them to seek to justify that believers never go to heaven! YOu are just wrong no matter how many times you use philosophy to try to reinterpret Gods Word!

Jesus declares you wrong:

John 14
King James Version

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Jesus is going to prepare a place for us---in heaven

He is goign to prepare that place right now--in heaven
He will take us to be with him- in heaven!

After the thousand year kingdom heaven will come to earth but you think the church stays unconscious for the kingdom! Even though the Apostles will rule Israel in Jerusalem!

John says you are wrong:

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

A voice of many people in heaven!
the bride (the church) is in heaven BEFORE Jesus comes back to earth!

Paul says you are wrong:

  1. 2 Corinthians 5:6
    Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  2. 2 Corinthians 5:8
    We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Despite all your nice sounding philoophical twisitngs- teh grammar is absolute here. If you are absent from teh body- you are present with the Lord.

It is not as you allege some JW type slick remeaning that the time people are unconcious will seem like a blink of the eye! Shame on you !

teh writer of Hebrews also said you are wrong:

Hebrews 11:13-16
King James Version

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

I would so love to see you recant of this error. But I think pride will keep you from that for you have invested so much in defending this origen based falsehood.

But I do hope that enough people will see all those who have oppossed you and the SCriptures that absolutely prove you wrong so they will not succumb to teh same deception.

Israel has an earthly hope (in the millenial kingdom), teh church a heavenly one. Once eternity "starts" heaven and earth will be "heaven".
 
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BABerean2

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Israel has an earthly hope (in the millenial kingdom), teh church a heavenly one.


Revelation 20: Does your interpretation agree with all other scripture?

(Chronological or Recapitulation?) (Literal vs. Figurative?)

Based on the following scripture, will immortals and mortals both live on earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will there be renewed animal sacrifices in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will Christ conduct funeral services for mortals killed in accidents many years after His Second Coming? Graveyards needed?


Can the following questions be examined without ridicule, and condemnation, based on the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?


Can the number 1,000 be used in a symbolic manner? Psalm 50:10


Does an angel with a key come from heaven and open the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2? Why did the angel have to unlock the pit if it was not locked previously?
Who is the king of the angels in the bottomless pit found in Revelation 9:11?
Are some of the angels “bound” in some manner in Revelation 9:14?
If the beast comes up out of the pit in Revelation 11:7, where is the beast before then?


John sees “souls” at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20.
Are these the same “souls” found in Revelation 6:9-11?


Is the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20:5 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation? (Rev. 11:11) Are there two different types of resurrections in John chapter 5?
John 5:24 (Spiritual) ? Were you dead, and now you are alive?
John 5:27-30 Christ describes the bodily resurrection and “hour” of judgment of “all” the dead.


Who is the “strong man” who is bound in Matthew 12:26-29?
How is Satan “bound” in Revelation 20:3?


How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

Isaiah 65:17-25? Are people really dying in verse 20? Context, Context, Context…


Was Paul expecting Christ to return "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10? How would mortals survive this fire?
Does the fire come at the end of Revelation 20?


Did Paul expect both the living and the dead to be judged at the appearing of Christ, in 2 Timothy 4:1?
When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20? Is it the same judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18?


What is the restitution of all things at the return of Christ in Acts 3:20-21?
Will Christ's sacrifice at Calvary also reverse the curse, at His return?


Does death die at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:50-55?


Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship? See John 4:20-24.
Why did Paul say the Jerusalem above is our “mother” in Galatians 4:24-31?
What is the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?


Is the third temple found in 1 Peter 2:4-10? Is this temple just as real as a temple made of earthly stones?


What was Peter expecting on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in 2 Peter 3:10-13?


Do we find the judgment of both the living and the dead at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, in Revelation 11:15-18? Why do most preachers ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18? What does it prove about the chronology of the Book of Revelation?


,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Is there a correlation between Revelation 20 and earlier passages in the Book of Revelation?
Is Revelation chapter 20 another example of “Recapitulation”?



Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

.
 
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Timtofly

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1 Cor 13:50-56, is a prophecy for Eternity; after the Millennium. Proved how it is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

The transportation, as described in Matthew 24:31, will be the same as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39

The fanciful idea of 'glorified bodies', is not said to happen at the Return. During the Millennium, we will live longer, however. Isaiah 65:20
I agree that an angel can transport a soul or body from one place in time to another place of any time. Paul was not just talking about moving around in time and space. He was talking about Adam's flesh being destroyed and the elect given a brand new body without sin and death.
 
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Timtofly

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Okay, I get what you mean, regarding the "Lamb/6th Seal, next to God" symbolism, more or less (given the inherent need to interpret), but I'm thinking practically, like in real life. That's why I'm glad you included the bit about the nail marks.

I'm thinking about it from a different angle, and not just in terms of the Scripture and how we interpret it, though that's obviously paramount, since that's clearly part of the story/stories and the faith--otherwise it wouldn't be much grist for discussion.

Let's just say, as a hypothetical example, that someone had a miracle happen to him, and he found out he was the One. But it happens when no one else is there, like with Moses, Abraham, and incidences like that.

The catch is this--how does he now start telling people? Like, does he go on YouTube and start making videos, or what? Website, Facebook group, perhaps? Twitter feed? Obvious kind of stuff, but isn't that how we communicate in the modern age, and wouldn't it look strange if someone was out there trying to make this claim and meaning it?

What I'm wondering is this--how would that person be able to convince people other that it is indeed HE who is the ONE? I like the notion that it would be unmistakeable, if that's how you feel about it.

But I'm wondering--would it be? And for whom, when people have all these ideas about what it would involve?

(Subquestion to ponder, pardon my sense of humour--what if it is indeed the Christ, but he didn't have nail marks, because he's in a new body this time around? And if he's not in a new body somehow, but he had the healing powers--would he be able to do something about the scars? What if his body had super-healing properties, such that his wounds healed way better than everyone else's, and the scars faded over the years, like an old tattoo? And it may sound like I'm kidding, but really, isn't it the case that we don't know? And that's the idea?)

And what if they don't like what they hear, and it's the time of Judgment?

Would that be a test? Do any of you see it that way? I guess what I'm getting at is--what if it's like that?

I must say, I'm new to Christian discussions and I'm not familiar with how their online communities go, so it's interesting to me to see the variety of viewpoints, opinions, and interpretations. I guess I mean--please be compassionate and know that I'm not a seasoned veteran of a Christian community. If this question is best posed as a new thread, I'll be happy to do that.

(Partial disclosure of where I'm coming from: Born to a Catholic family, went agnostic before high school, returned to faith as a general spiritual principle, and then arrived at sympathy with the Christian view through historical and philosophical study.)
Christ is not a position a current living human will "suddenly" find himself as. Christ has been with God in Paradise for 1990 years, physically.

That is the point, God and Christ come back together and all will know. Any who claim to be Christ are just liars.

There are several verses that claim the scars will still be visible for ever. Zechariah 12:10, even before Christ was even born.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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That is what I do, if you actually read my articles, you would see that.
You don't do it very well. I'm not going to waste my time reading your articles when I already know you are often mistaken in your understanding.

You are wrong and have been proved wrong.
By who? Certainly not you.

Jesus does not return until all the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are over.

The last Trump happens after the Millennium, to raise all the dead for Judgment.
It's amazing to me that you correctly recognize that the last trumpet happens after the thousand years and yet you somehow don't recognzie that He returns after the thousand years. What is the difference between 1 Cor 15:22-23 and 1 Cor 15:50-56 in terms of the timing of the resurrection of the dead in Christ? There is none, but you apparently think there is?

Paul does not say 'all' the dead will be raised when Jesus Returns. Only the trib martyrs, as Revelation 20:4 says.
In 1 Cor 15:22-23 he makes the order of resurrections clear which is that Jesus was raised first and then those who are His at His coming. But, you choose to interpret Revelation 20:4 in such a way that contradicts what Paul taught.

Spiritual, immortal bodies cannot be given until the Book of Life is opened. At the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.
Are you still this ignorant about what Amils believe? You do understand that I believe Jesus returns AFTER the Millennium and the dead in Christ are raised and changed to have spiritual, immortal bodies at that time, right? So, what is the reason you emphasized that it will be AFTER the Millennium when you should already know that is what Amils like myself believe?
 
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keras

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I agree that an angel can transport a soul or body from one place in time to another place of any time. Paul was not just talking about moving around in time and space. He was talking about Adam's flesh being destroyed and the elect given a brand new body without sin and death.
A new immortal body cannot be given until after the Millennium and the Book of Life opened. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 describes that time.
You don't do it very well. I'm not going to waste my time reading your articles when I already know you are often mistaken in your understanding.
My articles are scripture and mostly uses other scripture to explain it.
You read many other exponents of Bible Prophecy, why don't you like what I write? Is it because I challenge your beliefs?
It's amazing to me that you correctly recognize that the last trumpet happens after the thousand years and yet you somehow don't recognzie that He returns after the thousand years
Jesus Returns to reign over the world. It is His reward and is clearly prophesied. Psalms 2:8, Micah 5:2-4, +
In 1 Cor 15:22-23 he makes the order of resurrections clear which is that Jesus was raised first and then those who are His at His coming. But, you choose to interpret Revelation 20:4 in such a way that contradicts what Paul taught.
I do not contradict Paul. Revelation 20:4 contradicts the wishful thinkers, who want a general resurrection at the Return. Not going to happen.
Are you still this ignorant about what Amils believe?
I totally reject AMill.
That idea is untenable from many prophesies, esp Rev 20.
 
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DavidPT

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Verse 35 goes all the way to the end of the millennium. Verse 36 starts again before the Second Coming.


Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

You can't separate verse 35 from 36 and expect anyone to take you serious. Verse 36 indicates---But of that day and hour. What day and hour? How can verse 35 not be one of the events it is referring to? And since it has to be, it is ludricrous that verse 36 is meaning after the millennium, assuming the millennium is meaning post the 2nd coming. If one were Amil it would not be ludicrous to apply verse 36 post the millennium. It would certainly be ludricrous to do so if one were Premil, though. And I realize you are not even applying verse 36 post the millennium to begin with, but that doesn't matter. All that shows is that you are being illogical to begin with by separating verse 35 from verse 36, the fact they both involve the same events.
 
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Timtofly

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Are you still this ignorant about what Amils believe? You do understand that I believe Jesus returns AFTER the Millennium and the dead in Christ are raised and changed to have spiritual, immortal bodies at that time, right? So, what is the reason you emphasized that it will be AFTER the Millennium when you should already know that is what Amils like myself believe?
In the regards of a resurrection, he is post mill. That is what he believes, and is pointing that out.

I am curious if you like some allow another 1000 years of a church age. It is indefinite, and you have not defined a great tribulation as at the beginning or end. Is there a GT, 2/3 rd the way through, or do you think a hard 2K is definite of 1K? Is Satan being loosed a speed bump and 1000 more years will correct it? If Israel is established, would not the end of another 1000 years absolutely establish Israel as the one world power and then the Second Coming?

Is Israel and the church going to be the second attempt after the failed Roman and church "marriage"? If 1K failed, and we are at 2K, what makes 2K any more special than 3K?
 
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Timtofly

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A new immortal body cannot be given until after the Millennium and the Book of Life opened. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 describes that time.
The book of life is opened, unsealed, after the 7th Seal. That it is opened 1000 years later does not refute it can be opened before the 7 Trumpets.

It has to be opened, before the 7 Trumpets because names are going to be removed at the point many recieve the curse of 666. These will not be found written 1000 years later, because they were removed (from the book) during the 42 months Satan, the FP, and the image beast are in authority. Names can not be removed until the book is opened. Revelation 14-19 clearly show names have been removed.
 
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Timtofly

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Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

You can't separate verse 35 from 36 and expect anyone to take you serious. Verse 36 indicates---But of that day and hour. What day and hour? How can verse 35 not be one of the events it is referring to? And since it has to be, it is ludricrous that verse 36 is meaning after the millennium, assuming the millennium is meaning post the 2nd coming. If one were Amil it would not be ludicrous to apply verse 36 post the millennium. It would certainly be ludricrous to do so if one were Premil, though. And I realize you are not even applying verse 36 post the millennium to begin with, but that doesn't matter. All that shows is that you are being illogical to begin with by separating verse 35 from verse 36, the fact they both involve the same events.
Jesus is not recapping, but neither is every single verse in chronological order. Verse 35 does not happen prior to the Millennium, nor does verse 36 and following happen after the Millennium. Jesus is not giving any definite time frames is my point. That is why the taken verses is not a rapture after the 1000 year millennium like other posters, indicate. Nor are they a rapture at any time. That is the point. They are still prior to the Second Coming itself.
 
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keras

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In the regards of a resurrection, he is post mill. That is what he believes, and is pointing that out.
Thanks for correctly noting my beliefs, it is what the Bible tells us.
The book of life is opened, unsealed, after the 7th Seal. That it is opened 1000 years later does not refute it can be opened before the 7 Trumpets.
That the Book of Life can be opened in order to erase names from it, is made clear by; Exodus 32:33, Psalms 69:28
But the only time it is opened and immortality conferred to those whose names are Written in it, is at the Great White Throne Judgment - AFTER the Millennium.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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A new immortal body cannot be given until after the Millennium and the Book of Life opened. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 describes that time.
Once again, let me remind you that I too believe that we will have our immortal bodies AFTER the Millennium. I obviously disagree with the timing of the Milennium, but not with the timing of when we will be "changed" and have immortal bodies in relation to the Milennium. The difference is that I believe it will happen when Christ returns after the Millennium at the moment He returns. We will meet Him "in the air" at that time (1 Thess 4:14-17).

How do you come to the conclusion that no one will be changed to have an immortal body until until the book of life is opened? Where does scripture teach that?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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In the regards of a resurrection, he is post mill. That is what he believes, and is pointing that out.
Yeah, I can see that. He is premil in terms of the timing of Christ's return, but believes all believers except a relative few will be resurrected after the thousand years. I'm not aware of any other premil who believes that.

I am curious if you like some allow another 1000 years of a church age. It is indefinite, and you have not defined a great tribulation as at the beginning or end. Is there a GT, 2/3 rd the way through, or do you think a hard 2K is definite of 1K? Is Satan being loosed a speed bump and 1000 more years will correct it? If Israel is established, would not the end of another 1000 years absolutely establish Israel as the one world power and then the Second Coming?

Is Israel and the church going to be the second attempt after the failed Roman and church "marriage"? If 1K failed, and we are at 2K, what makes 2K any more special than 3K?
I have no idea of what you're talking about here, so I can't even attempt to respond.
 
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nolidad

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Revelation 20: Does your interpretation agree with all other scripture?

(Chronological or Recapitulation?) (Literal vs. Figurative?)

Based on the following scripture, will immortals and mortals both live on earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will there be renewed animal sacrifices in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will Christ conduct funeral services for mortals killed in accidents many years after His Second Coming? Graveyards needed?


Can the following questions be examined without ridicule, and condemnation, based on the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24?


Can the number 1,000 be used in a symbolic manner? Psalm 50:10


Does an angel with a key come from heaven and open the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2? Why did the angel have to unlock the pit if it was not locked previously?
Who is the king of the angels in the bottomless pit found in Revelation 9:11?
Are some of the angels “bound” in some manner in Revelation 9:14?
If the beast comes up out of the pit in Revelation 11:7, where is the beast before then?


John sees “souls” at the beginning of Revelation chapter 20.
Are these the same “souls” found in Revelation 6:9-11?


Is the “first resurrection” in Revelation 20:5 the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation? (Rev. 11:11) Are there two different types of resurrections in John chapter 5?
John 5:24 (Spiritual) ? Were you dead, and now you are alive?
John 5:27-30 Christ describes the bodily resurrection and “hour” of judgment of “all” the dead.


Who is the “strong man” who is bound in Matthew 12:26-29?
How is Satan “bound” in Revelation 20:3?


How many mortals are left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

Isaiah 65:17-25? Are people really dying in verse 20? Context, Context, Context…


Was Paul expecting Christ to return "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10? How would mortals survive this fire?
Does the fire come at the end of Revelation 20?


Did Paul expect both the living and the dead to be judged at the appearing of Christ, in 2 Timothy 4:1?
When is the judgment of the dead in Revelation 20? Is it the same judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18?


What is the restitution of all things at the return of Christ in Acts 3:20-21?
Will Christ's sacrifice at Calvary also reverse the curse, at His return?


Does death die at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:50-55?


Why did Jesus correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem was the place to worship? See John 4:20-24.
Why did Paul say the Jerusalem above is our “mother” in Galatians 4:24-31?
What is the inheritance of the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?


Is the third temple found in 1 Peter 2:4-10? Is this temple just as real as a temple made of earthly stones?


What was Peter expecting on the day of the Lord when He comes as a thief in 2 Peter 3:10-13?


Do we find the judgment of both the living and the dead at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, in Revelation 11:15-18? Why do most preachers ignore the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others in Revelation 11:18? What does it prove about the chronology of the Book of Revelation?


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Is there a correlation between Revelation 20 and earlier passages in the Book of Revelation?
Is Revelation chapter 20 another example of “Recapitulation”?



Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev_18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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Is this a newe tactic you are now employing? Instead of directly answrring question, just bury a conversation with bunches of silly questions from people who can't possibly know whether things are very literal or symbolic.

But once again for the 30+ time.

Show where in Hebrews 8, 10 and 12 where this promise and these terms were fulfilled.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Your deliberate and willful refusal to simply say:

"here is the promise in Jer. 31, and here is where in Hebrews it was fulfilled" etc. is truly amazing. I was a prison chaplain for over 8 years and I don't think I ever witnessed this kind of obfuscation from prisoners trying to skirt around admitting they were guilty!

The number 1,000 can be used symbolically, that is not the issue here. YOu have to show it is symbolic in REv. 20 all six times!

As for keys and the pit? Time will tell if the key is literal or figurative. That should end that smokescreen comment of yours.

As for the souls in Rev. 6 and 20. Don't know. I just know is that in 20 there is a mighty throng of people shouting in heaven and the church is in heaven ready to wed her groom!

AS or the REv. 20 resurrection. I will take Gods Word over the word according to BAB!

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Now if you wish to discuss why this is called teh first resurrection, that is a different discussion and start a new thread. Otherwise I am not as willing as you are to call God a liar and say His word doesn't mean what it says!

Matt. 25 how many? don't know! I wasn't assigned to count them. But you are the one with those special gifts of discerning things between the lines of SCripture. Maybe you already have the answer!

Well we are the temple of god now as Paul declared. But as you reject ISrael building a third temple:

2 Thessalonians 2:4
King James Version

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I guess you must believe that this man of lawlessness inhabits every believer at some point as we are now the temple of God!

The rest of your droning I will await answerring until you do what you should do.

Proive the New Covenant is fulfilled by pointing out the promise in Jer 31:31-34 one by one and showing its fulfilment in the New Testament!
 
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BABerean2

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"here is the promise in Jer. 31, and here is where in Hebrews it was fulfilled" etc. is truly amazing. I was a prison chaplain for over 8 years and I don't think I ever witnessed this kind of obfuscation from prisoners trying to skirt around admitting they were guilty!


I hope some of those same prisoners are now members of this forum and witnessing our conversation here, where you have pretended that Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18 do not exist.

It would be a powerful witness to the truth found in God's Word, and the willingness of some to twist it to fit their man-made doctrines.

.
 
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nolidad

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I hope some of those same prisoners are now members of this forum and witnessing our conversation here, where you have pretended that Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18 do not exist.

It would be a powerful witness to the truth found in God's Word, and the willingness of some to twist it to fit their man-made doctrines.

.

Continue to utter mistruths of my words demeans you.

I have just asked you to take Jer. 31 and using what you say are verses that prove it has been fulfilled to simply take the promise in Jer. and show where tiwas specifically fulfilled by the verses you say prove they were fulfilled.

But you know that and are pulling out all the tricks to keep from answering that simple question- even including bearing false witness against a brother!

As for your last sentence? I agree. that is why you should cease form keep doing it!

I have repeatedly shown where you have reinterpreted Scriptures to fit your man made doctrines. You? Just cloud my words, create straw men like you just did here and then beat that straw man of your own creation.

I expected much better of you.
 
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BABerean2

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I have just asked you to take Jer. 31 and using what you say are verses that prove it has been fulfilled to simply take the promise in Jer. and show where tiwas specifically fulfilled by the verses you say prove they were fulfilled.


Anyone with basic reading skills will find the text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 quoted word-for-word by the author of the Book of Hebrews after the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6.

The NKJV places the Old Testament text in all UPPERCASE letters. I made it a little larger so you can see it this time.


Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


We also find part of the text from Jeremiah 31:31-34 quoted in Hebrews chapter 10.

Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


Either the author of the Book of Hebrews is confused about the fulfillment of the New Covenant, or you are confused.


Further proof is found below in chapter 12 of Hebrews.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


C.I. Scofield spent some time in jail for fraud before he became a hero of Dispensational Theology. See the book "The Incredible Scofield" by Joseph Canfield, for a more in depth discussion.

Pastor Sam Adams on Scofield.
Sam Adams - The Everlasting Gospel VS The False Gospels of C.I. Scofield - YouTube

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keras

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How do you come to the conclusion that no one will be changed to have an immortal body until until the book of life is opened? Where does scripture teach that?
Daniel 7:9-10 and 12:1-4 mention the Book of Life, both in the context of the final Judgment. All as described in Revelation 20:11-15.

It will be after the Millennium as we agree, and then comes Eternity.
THAT is when those worthy will be made immortal, no one gets it before the final Judgment.
Isaiah 65:20 is one of the few prophesies about the Millennium period. People will live longer, but will still die then.
Those who join the final rebellion when Satan is released, will be killed by God. Revelation 20:7-9
Only after the GWT Judgment, will Death be no more. Which proves that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy for that time.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Daniel 7:9-10 and 12:1-4 mention the Book of Life, both in the context of the final Judgment. All as described in Revelation 20:11-15.

It will be after the Millennium as we agree, and then comes Eternity.
THAT is when those worthy will be made immortal, no one gets it before the final Judgment.
The text does not say that. No reason why it can't happen very shortly before that when Christ returns and we then meet Him "in the air" (1 Thess 4:14-17).

Isaiah 65:20 is one of the few prophesies about the Millennium period. People will live longer, but will still die then.
Those who join the final rebellion when Satan is released, will be killed by God. Revelation 20:7-9
Only after the GWT Judgment, will Death be no more. Which proves that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy for that time.
No one will ever die again once Christ returns and destroys His enemies. Death being cast into the lake of fire shortly after will just be a formality at that point. We're talking about a very short amount of time as far as the difference in our understanding of the timing of when believers will be changed and have their immortal bodies. It's kind of silly, really. That's not our main point of contention and it's not really worth arguing about any longer.
 
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Thanks for correctly noting my beliefs, it is what the Bible tells us.

That the Book of Life can be opened in order to erase names from it, is made clear by; Exodus 32:33, Psalms 69:28
But the only time it is opened and immortality conferred to those whose names are Written in it, is at the Great White Throne Judgment - AFTER the Millennium.
Do you think some "souls" currently in heaven will not be in the book of life, or is no one in Paradise now, and Jesus lied on the Cross about Paradise? I don't see how God cannot know now and souls have to wait till the GWT. 1 John 5:9-13

9 If we accept human witness, God’s witness is stronger, because it is the witness which God has given about his Son.
10 Those who keep trusting in the Son of God have this witness in them. Those who do not keep trusting God have made him out to be a liar, because they have not trusted in the witness which God has given about his Son.
11 And this is the witness: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 Those who have the Son have the life; those who do not have the Son of God do not have the life.
13 I have written you these things so that you may know that you have eternal life — you who keep trusting in the person and power of the Son of God.

We can have such knowledge now, and even more so after death. Why wait until the GWT, when we can know now? There is not a single verse in God's Word where a name is added. Only those who do not know, will at the GWT know their name is going to be removed.
 
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