Null/Voided Out

Clare73 said:

"The unending fire in the translations of Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2, 3, 20:15, 21:8 are not challenged by anyone."

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Saint Steven said:

Are you claiming omniscience again? How do you know they aren't "challenged by anyone"?

JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN - HELL by J. Preston Eby
JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN - HELL by J. Preston Eby

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The word "hell" in Mk 9:43, 47-48 is actually the word "Gehenna" in the Greek--a specific place of unending fire--which is addressed in post #381, top of previous page.
If you want to drop those Scriptures, okay.

So what specific words in the English translations of those specific remaining Scriptures are challenged?

Clare73 said:

... no notions of human wisdom denying divine revelation regarding everlasting fire for the condemned.

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So, you call a biased mistranslation divine revelation? Wow.

Clare73 said:

It's about the singleness of the authority that I use for my belief, not about the simplicity of the words Paul uses in his preaching.

Sorry about that. . .

1 Corinthians 2:1-2 NIV
And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

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Now that you have been corrected about what Paul was saying in 1Cor.2:1-2, can you see what his source was? (since it wasn't the Bible)

Clare73 said:

Aren't we supposed to worship only God?

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Yes.
But I find many are worshiping a book. Calling it a single authority. Unfortunately, the book was at the mercy of evil editors who were seeking to be worshiped. So they created a religion of fear to rule the masses. Believe, or burn. Tyrannical despotism.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Are you promoting the worship of the author, or the editors?

Clare73 said:

The word "hell" in Mk 9:43, 47-48 is actually the word "Gehenna" in the Greek--a specific place of unending fire--which is addressed in post #381, top of this page.
If you want to drop those Scriptures, okay.

So what specific words in the English translations of those specific remaining Scriptures are challenged?

Click to expand...

Is the "eternal" fire at Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?

The Bible uses exaggerated language to make a point. Note the hellish descriptions below. After such exaggerated descriptions God changed his mind and decided to restore Sodom and Gomorrah, Ammon and Moab, Elam, Egypt and Edom. (don't miss the description of Edom below --- Isaiah 34:9-10 )

The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Ezekiel 16:53
“‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,


The restoration of Ammon and Moab

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Jeremiah 25:22, 27
21 Edom, Moab and Ammon; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:6
“Yet afterward, I will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites,”
declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 48:4, 47
4 Moab will be broken;
her little ones will cry out.
47 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.
Here ends the judgment on Moab.


The restoration of Elam

Jeremiah 25:25, 27
25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam and Media; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:39
“Yet I will restore the fortunes of Elam
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.


The restoration of Egypt

Jeremiah 25:19, 27
19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Ezekiel 29:13-14
“‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered.
14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

Saint Steven said:

So, you call a biased mistranslation divine revelation? Wow.

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Doesn't everybody?

Oh wait, they're referring to the revelation in the original language--Greek.

You have to agree with the Greek to be divine revelation, where the translation of Gehenna as "hell" is in agreement with the fire being kept up in both Gehenna and hell.

Are you getting blind on me?

Saint Steven said:

Now that you have been corrected. . . can you see what his source was? (since it wasn't the Bible)

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Don't understand what you are asking. . .

If you're asking about Paul's source, it was Jesus personally to him in the third heaven (2Co 12:1-5).

Saint Steven said:

Yes.
But I find many are worshiping a book. Calling it a single authority. Unfortunately, the book was at the mercy of evil editors who were seeking to be worshiped. So they created a religion of fear to rule the masses. Believe, or burn. Tyrannical despotism.

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One man's worship is another man's faith. . .

traces of eastern light linger

Clare73 said:

Are you getting blind on me?

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Me, blind?
You just claimed that a biased mistranslation is divine revelation. (your single authority)

Clare73 said:

"The unending fire in the translations of Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 12:32 ; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2, 3, 20:15, 21:8 are not challenged by anyone."

Click to expand...

Saint Steven said:

Are you claiming omniscience again? How do you know they aren't "challenged by anyone"?

JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN - HELL by J. Preston Eby
JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN - HELL by J. Preston Eby

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

The word "hell" in Mk 9:43, 47-48 is actually the word "Gehenna" in the Greek--a specific place of unending fire--which is addressed in post #381, top of previous page.
If you want to drop those Scriptures, okay.

So what specific words in the English translations of those specific remaining Scriptures--Mt 12:32 ; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2, 3, 20:15, 21:8--are challenged?

Click to expand...

Saint Steven said:

Is the "eternal" fire at Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?

Click to expand...

Isa 34:10 is symbolic prophecy for the old earth becoming the new Gehenna.

The Bible uses exaggerated language to make a point. Note the hellish descriptions below. After such exaggerated descriptions God changed his mind and decided to restore Sodom and Gomorrah, Ammon and Moab, Elam, Egypt and Edom. (don't miss the description of Edom below --- Isaiah 34:9-10 )

The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Ezekiel 16:53
“‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,


The restoration of Ammon and Moab

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Jeremiah 25:22, 27
21 Edom, Moab and Ammon; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:6
“Yet afterward, I will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites,”
declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 48:4, 47
4 Moab will be broken;
her little ones will cry out.
47 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.
Here ends the judgment on Moab.


The restoration of Elam

Jeremiah 25:25, 27
25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam and Media; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:39
“Yet I will restore the fortunes of Elam
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.


The restoration of Egypt

Jeremiah 25:19, 27
19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Ezekiel 29:13-14
“‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered.
14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

"Divine revelation" refers to the revelation in the original language--Greek.

You have to agree with the Greek to be divine revelation, where the translation of Gehenna as "hell" (Hades--OT place of fire after death) is in agreement with the fire being kept up in both Gehenna and hell.

Are you getting blind on me?

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Saint Steven said:

Me, blind?
You just claimed that a biased mistranslation is divine revelation. (your single authority)

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Non-responsive. . .

Clare73 said:

So what specific words in the English translations of those specific remaining Scriptures are challenged?

Click to expand...

Any words that claim "unending fire" are challenged. In some cases the reference would be to the quality of the fire, in other cases literary exaggeration is being used to make a point. But mostly just biased translation problems.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

Clare73 said:

So what specific words in the English translations of those specific remaining Scriptures--Mt 12:32 ; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2, 3, 20:15, 21:8--are challenged?

Click to expand...

Saint Steven said:

Any words that claim "unending fire" are challenged.

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So now you challenge the Greek itself, the original language of the text itself?

So who's claiming omniscience again? . .that he would override the revelator's own language (Greek) regarding the fire's:

I. duration:
"in this age or the age to come"-- Mt 12:32,
"unquenchable" -- Lk 3:17
"ages of ages" -- Rev 14:11, 19:3, (good translation: thousands of thousands),

II. description as:
furnace of fire (Mt 13:42),
lake of fire (Rev 19:20, 20:10, 14, 15, 21:8),
punishment (Mt 13:46; 2Tim 1:9),
destruction (Php 3:19; Heb 10:39),
nether gloom of darkness (2Pe 2:17; Jude 13),
second death (Rev 2:11, 20:6, 14, 21:8), and

III. nature and quality:
where in Mk 9:49, in its context of vv. 43, 45, 47,
the "salting with fire," in the fire of suffering to deal radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out),
is opposed to, and necessary to avoid the fire of hell.

This is looking more and more like blindness. . .

In some cases the reference would be to the quality of the fire, in other cases literary exaggeration is being used to make a point. But mostly just biased translation problems.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

Tell me again. . .who now is it that is omniscient? . .that he would override the revelator's own language (Greek) regarding the fire's

I. duration:
"in this age or the age to come"-- Mt 12:32,
"unquenchable" -- Lk 3:17
"ages of ages" -- Rev 14:11, 19:3, (good translation: thousands of thousands),

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Clearly, this does not mean unending. An age has a beginning and an end. Therefore the fire is not eternal. What does your so-called "divinely inspired" translation say?

Saint Steven said:

Clearly, this does not mean unending. An age has a beginning and an end.

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Who made that rule?

The "age to come," after the Final Judgment--does not have an ending.

What does your so-called "divinely inspired" translation say?

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Actually, the Greek is "God-breathed" -- theo pnuestos -- 2Tim 3:16.

Clare73 said:

The "age to come," after the Final Judgment--does not have an ending.

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Who made that rule? - lol

aionios = eon

Clare73 said:

Actually, the Greek is "God-breathed" -- theo pnuestos -- 2Tim 3:16.

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The NT canon as scripture did not exist when that was written.

“The canon of the New Testament, as commonly received at present, was ratified by the third Council of Carthage (A.D. 397), and from that time was accepted throughout the Latin Church…” (Canon of Scripture, Unger’s Bible Dictionary, p. 178).

The Book of 2 Timothy was written in approximately A.D. 67.

Saint Steven said:

Who made that rule? - lol

aionios = eon

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Which the unending age after the Final Judgment disproves.

Saint Steven said:

The NT canon as scripture did not exist when that was written.

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Scripture = writings.

So the NT writings are not God-breathed?
So the revelation Paul received from Jesus Christ personally in the third heaven (2Co 12:1-5)
is not God-breathed?
I beg to disagree.

The canon didn't exist, but the writings did and were considered Scripture, as demonstrated by
1) Peter (2Pe 3:15-16), when he groups Paul's writings with "the other Scriptures" -- as well as by

2) Paul (1Tim 5:18) when he quotes Luke's writing (Lk 10:7--"wages"--found nowhere else in Scripture, only in Luke's writing) and links it with the Scripture of Dt 25:4 as authoritative, showing that the NT writings (e.g., Luke) were considered to be equal in authority to the OT Scriptures.

All Scripture is God-breathed. (2Ti 3:16)

“The canon of the New Testament, as commonly received at present, was ratified by the third Council of Carthage (A.D. 397), and from that time was accepted throughout the Latin Church…” (Canon of Scripture, Unger’s Bible Dictionary, p. 178).

The Book of 2 Timothy was written in approximately A.D. 67.

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Saint Steven said:

No, the NT Greek word used for "acknowledge" (confess) means whole-heartedly and without reservation. Therefore not under compulsion, but willingly, in agreement.
...

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Ok. Demons also acknowledge who Jesus is.

Demons also came out from many, crying out, and saying, "You are the Christ, the Son of God!" Rebuking them, he didn't allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.
Luke 4:41

Does this mean they are also saved and will have eternal life?