condition for people to be saved in their last moments

BNR32FAN

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I see what you mean but Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments because by doing so you show love to God and others so such commandments are important. If one given a chance to repent and show love to God and others and do God will and continually chooses not to he may die without having gained a new heart that has repented that is shown by works God grants him to do because he has not seeked it because he does not know when he will die or if he will find God then if he does not seek God diligently before he dies

Personally I think the works themselves are irrelevant. If a person has faith and love they will do good works. Can you think of a single person that you love that you have not done good works for?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Do you think that a merciful God would condemn His children the eternal torment?
Romans 6:23 clearly says that the Penalty for sin is death.

The fire is everlasting and the death is permanent or forever .The fire is reserved for Satan and his angels. Matthew 25:41..."Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Job even asked why was he born.Job 3:11. One needs to have God's Holy spirit in order to sin against it and I have shown the scriptures that tell us how to obtain it.

The doctrine of the immortal soul is unscriptural and has been used by churches over the years to scare and control people.I have given many scriptures that say this. Here is one more...Acts 2:29."Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
David is not in heaven or anywhere else but the grave awaiting the resurrection.

Do you believe David is in Sheol awaiting the resurrection? I believe that was the case before Christ died and was resurrected but I believe now when a believer dies they go to be with the Lord. Hence to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. It seems to me that Paul was anticipating and expecting this after his death by the way he said it.
 
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mikeforjesus

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Personally I think the works themselves are irrelevant. If a person has faith and love they will do good works. Can you think of a single person that you love that you have not done good works for?

Ok thanks for sharing your opinion but I believe one needs to make sure he is connected with God by prayer and reading His word to be able to be transformed and changed to be effectively able to love others and know what one can do
 
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BNR32FAN

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Ok thanks for sharing your opinion but I believe one needs to make sure he is connected with God by prayer and reading His word to be able to be transformed and changed to be effectively able to love others and know what one can do

Did the thief on the cross do any of that?
 
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Ok thanks for sharing your opinion but I believe one needs to make sure he is connected with God by prayer and reading His word to be able to be transformed and changed to be effectively able to love others and know what one can do

Don’t get me wrong I’m definitely not one to say that believing is the only requirement. What I’m saying is that I believe what God actually takes into consideration is faith in Christ and love for God and others. If we have these qualities then everything else will take care of itself. We will be devoted to serving God and we will do good works. But a person could attain these qualities in their final moments and not have the opportunity to do good works and they would still be saved just the same. I believe that the thief on the cross attained these qualities in his final moments and if he had the opportunity would’ve done good works. So the fact that he was saved without the works to me is evidence that the works are not a determining factor as well as the several scriptures that specifically says so.
 
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mikeforjesus

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I suppose not but it could be he did because he called upon God he was earnestly seeking God forgiveness to find out justification by seeking to repent and do the right thing and inwardly praying probably repenting of all he did and taking opportunity of the grace offered to him by looking for the truth and believing in Jesus and seeking assurance from Him for all his sins. He was given opportunity because there was still chance for him to be truly sorry having not used up all his chances before. I suppose if one is still able to call on the Lord and truly be sorry for the life one lived and one has a change of heart seeking to do what one can one has a chance to be saved if the Lord believes the person has turned to Him with all their heart and it is genuine
 
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BNR32FAN

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I suppose not but it could be he did because he called upon God he was earnestly seeking God forgiveness to find out justification by seeking to repent and do the right thing and inwardly praying probably repenting of all he did and taking opportunity of the grace offered to him by looking for the truth and believing in Jesus and seeking assurance from him for all his sins. He was given opportunity because there was still chance for him to be truly sorry having not used up all his chances before

True, he did acknowledge Christ’s kingdom which is an indication that he believed that Christ is God and he did acknowledge his guilt which was an indication of his repentance. I think it’s obvious that this was heart felt and genuine since he was saved. He humbled himself to Christ while the others were mocking Him and he even rebuked the others for mocking Christ and acknowledged His innocence. So I don’t think I could rightly say that he didn’t do any works at all.
 
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Loaves and Fishes

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Do you believe David is in Sheol awaiting the resurrection? I believe that was the case before Christ died and was resurrected but I believe now when a believer dies they go to be with the Lord. Hence to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. It seems to me that Paul was anticipating and expecting this after his death by the way he said it.

You said..."Do you believe David is in Sheol awaiting the resurrection? "
Yes I do believe that is what scripture says"David is dead and in his tomb today.Peter spoke those words about David in Acts 2. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 it tells us that the dead in Christ will rise first then those who are alive to meet the Lord in the air,not in heaven. Have a look at what Paul had said in Hebrews 11 he is talking about Abel,Enoch,Noah,Abraham,Sarah,Isaac,Jacob,Joseph,Moses and others as well as David all died in faith "not accepting deliverance that they might obtain a better resurrection."(verse 35)
Most importantly look at verses 39-40 where is says that "they should not be made perfect apart from us." This tells me that all who are in Christ will be raised together to be resurrected in the first or better resurrection. The resurrection of first fruits. Christ first then those who belong to Him. 1 Corinthians 15:23. Also notice the word resurrected meaning rising from the dead. All these scriptures about resurrection is the rising from the dead.
 
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Loaves and Fishes

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Do you realize that quote from Romans 9 was pertaining to the Jews & Gentiles not to individuals? That’s why Paul said that the Jews who had been seeking righteousness had not arrived at it because they were seeking it by works but the Gentiles who were not seeking it had arrived at righteousness because they perused it by faith. Hence not according to he who runs but according to God who shows mercy. What Paul is saying here is that the Gentiles would’ve never had any chance for salvation if it were by works, salvation is the result of God’s calling but even that’s not guaranteed because we still have to cooperate with His calling.

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, “BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:30-33‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul is not saying that God chooses some to be saved and doesn’t allow others to repent and be saved.
God gives us grace. Hebrews 11:1. "Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."Faith without works is dead." James 2:14-26. The ones in the second resurrection will be judge on what they had done.(works)Revelation 20:12
 
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mikeforjesus

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I wrote the below but I don't think it is necessarily true that only the sacraments allow one to be sanctified because it may be God can convict of sin and make one effective and repent who are not so I do not think I should necessarily teach I know baptism is necessary to ever be saved because it may not be but you should be baptized just in case because it does not seem that it is only reasonable for it to be necessary that only the baptized are saved because one can believe it is necessary only to to be able to be alive currently to be fully restored upon death not just to have the fruits of the Spirit which all believers can have because they turn away from sin by the Spirit but to be alive already to have one soul restored and the sin in the soul removed you need baptism and maybe communion. Because you can't by just obedience but obedience saves. But the fruit of the Spirit is given by those who have relationship with the Holy Spirit which I think all believers have as I believe God gave the Holy Spirit to gentiles by faith and only then commanded I think to make one saved upon death for the Holy Spirit that they already have to wash the soul of the one baptized.

People should assume you need to be baptized if they are not convinced it is not necessary and they can have communion too if they do not know it is not necessary. Only God knows if it is not necessary so one can be sure he is keeping every word of God. Because God wants to encourage people to come together and be present when they come together. So they have to look for those who celebrate it where 2 or 3 are gathered He is in the midst. You can celebrate among house churches when there is few when there is just 2 or 3 but that supposes you are also gathering in normal churches where it is celebrated when it is available to encourage it. But not everyone receives the true body and blood except those who want it who have faith . Only God knows if it is really required but one should do it incase it is required. People should be doing it incase it is required only God knows if it is not required so people should do it incase it is required.

I do not know I think it may not be required but since it may be required one should do it I say so because there may be genuine believers who did not place emphasis on such sacraments or genuinely were seeking to serve God who confessed Him and were followers of christ they honestly wanted to repent and follow Him to be saved. They were seeking to be saved by christ to be His followers who did not believe in sacraments as necessary because they were not taught it is important and it seemed to just stumble others who do not want to judge those who were followers of Christ who deny the real presence because they didn't think they could have it outside the church so they wanted to be right. But they were honestly seeking to be saved. But it may be all genuine christians would do sacraments that seemed to them when others taught them it may be important but there could be some who are genuinely seeking christ and to please Him who do not.
 
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Loaves and Fishes

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I wrote the below but I don't think it is necessarily true that only the sacraments allow one to be sanctified because it may be God can convict of sin and make one effective and repent who are not so I do not think I should necessarily teach I know baptism is necessary to ever be saved because it may not be but you should be baptized just in case because it does not seem that it is only reasonable for it to be necessary that only the baptized are saved because one can believe it is necessary only to to be able to be alive currently to be fully restored upon death not just to have the fruits of the Spirit which all believers can have because they turn away from sin by the Spirit but to be alive already to have one soul restored and the sin in the soul removed you need baptism and maybe communion. Because you can't by just obedience but obedience saves. But the fruit of the Spirit is given by those who have relationship with the Holy Spirit which I think all believers have as I believe God gave the Holy Spirit to gentiles by faith and only then commanded I think to make one saved upon death for the Holy Spirit that they already have to wash the soul of the one baptized.

People should assume you need to be baptized if they are not convinced it is not necessary and they can have communion too if they do not know it is not necessary. Only God knows if it is not necessary so one can be sure he is keeping every word of God. Because God wants to encourage people to come together and be present when they come together. So they have to look for those who celebrate it where 2 or 3 are gathered He is in the midst. You can celebrate among house churches when there is few when there is just 2 or 3 but that supposes you are also gathering in normal churches where it is celebrated when it is available to encourage it. But not everyone receives the true body and blood except those who want it who have faith . Only God knows if it is really required but one should do it incase it is required. People should be doing it incase it is required only God knows if it is not required so people should do it incase it is required.

I do not know I think it may not be required but since it may be required one should do it I say so because there may be genuine believers who did not place emphasis on such sacraments or genuinely were seeking to serve God who confessed Him and were followers of christ they honestly wanted to repent and follow Him to be saved. They were seeking to be saved by christ to be His followers who did not believe in sacraments as necessary because they were not taught it is important and it seemed to just stumble others who do not want to judge those who were followers of Christ who deny the real presence because they didn't think they could have it outside the church so they wanted to be right. But they were honestly seeking to be saved. But it may be all genuine christians would do sacraments that seemed to them when others taught them it may be important but there could be some who are genuinely seeking christ and to please Him who do not.

To be crucified in Christ...
Romans 6:3-14
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You said..."Do you believe David is in Sheol awaiting the resurrection? "
Yes I do believe that is what scripture says"David is dead and in his tomb today.Peter spoke those words about David in Acts 2. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 it tells us that the dead in Christ will rise first then those who are alive to meet the Lord in the air,not in heaven. Have a look at what Paul had said in Hebrews 11 he is talking about Abel,Enoch,Noah,Abraham,Sarah,Isaac,Jacob,Joseph,Moses and others as well as David all died in faith "not accepting deliverance that they might obtain a better resurrection."(verse 35)
Most importantly look at verses 39-40 where is says that "they should not be made perfect apart from us." This tells me that all who are in Christ will be raised together to be resurrected in the first or better resurrection. The resurrection of first fruits. Christ first then those who belong to Him. 1 Corinthians 15:23. Also notice the word resurrected meaning rising from the dead. All these scriptures about resurrection is the rising from the dead.

I don’t see any indication here that David is still in the tomb.


“For David says of Him, ‘I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.’ “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that H E WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.” ’ Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
 
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if everyone can be saved in their last moments then what is the harm of delaying repentance?

I think there is no promise for sinners that they will live long and that the time they have remaining is easy to find oil though possible if they strive really hard. If God is patient it is because there are many righteous people praying but in the bible it says even if Job or Noah or Daniel were to pray He would not be patient to a people or person if He sees there is no hope
maybe if they are very wicked already having had many chances we do not know how many chances we had. I don't mean to say so to cause despair because it could be God is patient because we did not have many chances but I don't know if that is the case

The below may not be true because it it is best to assume it is very difficult to be saved at the end than from the beginning

if a person has no good works but then later puts his faith in Christ alone to save him now in this moment he can be saved because the work of God is to believe on Him whom He sent the oil of the wise virgins is to get the faith to put your trust in Christ for salvation to forgive all your previous sins but faith without works is dead so you need to confess to others you have put your trust in Christ and does what good you can do with remaining time as you read bible God will prepare good works for you to follow as you look for opportunities to follow the gospel

And about previous offenses you can confess all your sins to God and ask for opportunity to do good

No one knows when he will die and if he will find opportunity to repent

Many deaths are sudden and one has no time to repent then.
 
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Loaves and Fishes

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I don’t see any indication here that David is still in the tomb.


“For David says of Him, ‘I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.’ “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that H E WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.” ’ Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Future tense. - 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices;
My flesh also will rest in hope.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Future tense. - 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices;
My flesh also will rest in hope.

Yeah we’ll David didn’t write that after he died. Of course it’s future tense if he wrote it while he was still alive.
 
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Yeah we’ll David didn’t write that after he died. Of course it’s future tense if he wrote it while he was still alive.
The word soul and spirit is used at least 1600 times in the Bible and never once are said to be immortal.Have a look at Genesis 3:19-22 where God is quite clear that we die and that man did not take from the tree of life and does not live forever-unless God allows it.You will see what I mean from the following scriptures. Genesis 2:17 where God says Adam will surely die if he eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil-and he did eat from it. Some other verses to look at are Ecclesiastes 3:19-20,Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 ,Ecclesiastes 12:7.In the book of Job 4:17 ,one of Job's friends asks ‘Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can even a strong man be more pure than his Maker?" Obviously he knew man was mortal. In Job 14:12-15 it says
12 so he lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, people will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.

13 “If only you would hide me in the grave
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!
14 If someone dies, will they live again?
All the days of my hard service
I will wait for my renewal to come.
15 You will call and I will answer you;
you will long for the creature your hands have made.

Compare this with 2 Peter 3:9-10
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering(patient) toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Job's renewal was the resurrection of the dead spoke of in Romans 2:6-7 "the righteous judgment of God, 6 will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Revelation 20:12 says " 12 And I saw the dead,small and great, standing before God,and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books."
The books here in this scripture is the Greek Biblion from which the word Bible comes from. These are the books of the Bible which God will show to those in this resurrection to finally understand and know Christ.
God is a merciful God and does not want any of His children to perish but have eternal life.. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."
So this verse tells us that we can perish and we do not have eternal life until we come to God-John 5:39-40.
Rest assured that all who are dead and have never heard the name of Christ in all of history-cultures from all over the world-will have a chance to know and understand what Jesus came here for and to accept Him as savior at that time of resurrection and to be part of God's kingdom here on earth.Matthew 5:5.
 
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mikeforjesus

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Do you think that a merciful God would condemn His children the eternal torment?
Romans 6:23 clearly says that the Penalty for sin is death.

The fire is everlasting and the death is permanent or forever .The fire is reserved for Satan and his angels. Matthew 25:41..."Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Job even asked why was he born.Job 3:11. One needs to have God's Holy spirit in order to sin against it and I have shown the scriptures that tell us how to obtain it.

The doctrine of the immortal soul is unscriptural and has been used by churches over the years to scare and control people.I have given many scriptures that say this. Here is one more...Acts 2:29."Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.
David is not in heaven or anywhere else but the grave awaiting the resurrection.

I was reading the book case for faith by lee strobel who answers these questions according to his belief. I’m not sure whether I agree with his beliefs that the punishments are not literal though still an experience of eternal suffering like fire for feeling great suffering from loss of God but he teaches it is our choice if we choose we don’t want to be with God if we choose not to follow Him
 
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mikeforjesus

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I should be honest that we don’t know baptism and communion is not necessary if people believed it is necessary they should assume it is necessary others may not have believed it is necessary who really believed as they did. Perhaps some did not get baptized because others taught it is not necessary they should have as Jesus taught it but they were lazy and really thought they would get away with it but is there really any such people or any people that love Jesus who would refuse to get baptized. I was hoping some people who are not baptized are sincere in love for others and Jesus but I’m not sure they exist so we should teach you need to be baptized. To not allow those with false love to Jesus and others to think they are accepted by God if they don’t really love Him. So we should teach you need to be baptized. It is between others and God if you don’t need to. But my dad says doing such works that are commandments won’t help others if one is not born again and is himself choosing to have relationship with Jesus. But people are first to have relationship with God and then God tells them what they must do. My dad believes every person needs to be born again by submitting to Jesus and coming to Him and truly having relationship with Him to earnestly seek from Him to be born again which God chooses to give the experience to people who submit to Him and such is necessary to have His Spirit living in one and He believes that salvation is of God to keep you saved as Jesus said He has engraved you on the palm of His hands He makes you live in Him and always repent when you sin
 
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mikeforjesus

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I think it only seems wise for me to follow this advice others can too

I should join a church Jesus may have established because it seems to me for many like me we have not been able to find assurance there is salvation outside I should join the Orthodox Church and seek to see if Catholicism is true

My advice for others to be sure is to follow the Catholic Church if you or your parents were not raised orthodox or you may think it is better to be orthodox and see if catholic is true but to be in a church seems it is important but those who are orthodox should stay orthodox and they can see if the Catholic Church is true and follow it. Because God has not yet proved to everyone there is no true church so if people don’t know it is only most safe to follow it and assume there is only salvation in the church
 
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I was thinking of going to church but I don't think God wills for me to go to church as I would be lukewarm not really dedicated to the church because of not liking the teachings of the church which insists that others are not saved. So I think it is a mistake. I should go to a church to seek to be more alive to help others be more convinced
 
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