"Non-denominational"??? What does that even mean?

Gregorikos · Jan 10, 2021

Dave G. said:
Hmmm, that's worth pondering.

Well it's true. If you think of the churches of Christ, who are adamant about not being a denomination, wouldn't that make them non-denominational?

And yet they are.

WolfGate · Jan 10, 2021

Scott Husted said:
Non-denomination became a denomination the moment the first group identified themselves as such.

I don't see how that logically makes sense. It would make the world only a binary place when it is much more multifaceted than that. Examples are abundant where 2 things that are "not" something are not part of the same group in any way other than not being that particular something .

Scott Husted · Jan 10, 2021

WolfGate said:
I don't see how that logically makes sense. It would make the world only a binary place when it is much more multifaceted than that. Examples are abundant where 2 things that are "not" something are not part of the same group in any way other than not being that particular something .

The binary is in the choice ... simliar to God calling light good ...

WolfGate · Jan 10, 2021

Scott Husted said:
The binary is in the choice ... simliar to God calling light good ...

I don't think so in the context of this thread. The Calvinistic, not-charismatic, OSAS church may be non-denominational. The Armenian, charismatic, salvation can be lost church may be non-denominational. Their beliefs are way further apart than the beliefs of any churches in a denomination (say Southern Baptist or Anglican or Presbyterian, etc.) They decidedly are not part of the same denomination (a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church). They are what they say they are, independent of each other. Non-denominational.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2021

Scott Husted said:
Non-denomination became a denomination the moment the first group identified themselves as such.

While this is true that non-denominationalism can be traced back in history to when they started to use that term to a group of people, the concept of non-denominationalism is basically an idea of stating that one is not following solely a specific church that is tied to a group of men that many times involves man made traditions, but it involves simply following what God's Word says alone. Granted, everyone has their own interpretation of God's Word, and so one can find churches that are acting unbiblically within non-denominational churches. The point is that the non-denominational church is not declaring to follow a specifically named church with a certain line of men throughout history who have made a flawed set of beliefs that run contrary to the Bible that usually begain with one guy appearing to invent that set of beliefs (that run contrary to His Word). Non-denominationalism is saying that God's Word is our authority alone, but everyone has their own interpretation of His Word. So there can be a varying degree of non-denominational churches. Some non-denominational churches can be more evangelical, and radical, while others can be more liberal (like seeker friendly churches that sell folks on feel good messages with no repentance or talk of sin).

Scott Husted · Jan 10, 2021

WolfGate said:
I don't think so in the context of this thread. The Calvinistic, not-charismatic, OSAS church may be non-denominational. The Armenian, charismatic, salvation can be lost church may be non-denominational. Their beliefs are way further apart than the beliefs of any churches in a denomination (say Southern Baptist or Anglican or Presbyterian, etc.) They decidedly are not part of the same denomination (a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church). They are what they say they are, independent of each other. Non-denominational.

Perception is everything ... and by this means we divide what God has joined together.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2021

Non-denominationalism is basically saying... look at my set of beliefs and actions now in regards to following God's Word, and do not look to a certain set of religious men throughout history who have formalized a certain set of beliefs that usually appears to run contary to God's Word and can be traced back to one guy inventing it.

Evangelical radical Christians like to be called non-denominational because they want to follow the narrow way that Jesus talked about (i.e. Just follow His Word alone and not a certain group of religous men through man made history). For Jesus says narrow is the way, and FEW be there that find it. Liberal Christians who identify as non-denominational are simply just doing their own thing and not declaring they have any ties to any formalized named church throughout history.

Scott Husted · Jan 10, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
While this is true that non-denominationalism can be traced back in history to when they started to use that term to a group of people, the concept of non-denominationalism is basically an idea of stating that one is not following solely a specific church that is tied to a group of men that many times involves man made traditions, but it involves simply following what God's Word says alone. Granted, everyone has their own interpretation of God's Word, and so one can find churches that are acting unbiblically within non-denominational churches. The point is that the non-denominational church is not declaring to follow a specifically named church with a certain line of men throughout history who have made a flawed set of beliefs that run contrary to the Bible that usually begain with one guy appearing to invent that set of beliefs (that run contrary to His Word). Non-denominationalism is saying that God's Word is our authority alone, but everyone has their own interpretation of His Word. So there can be a varying degree of non-denominational churches. Some non-denominational churches can be more evangelical, and others can be more liberal (like seeker friendly churches that sell folks on feel good messages with no repentance or talk of sin).

I've yet to find a named church that does not wander after another's belief system ...

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2021

Scott Husted said:
I've yet to find a named church that does not wander after another's belief system ...

But your missing the point of non-denominationalism. Such a church is declaring that they are not officially following a certain set of men's beliefs. Sure, many of them may contradict themselves but the point of non-denomitionalism is that it is not following a certain “name brand” or “label” and it is not following a certain set of religious men through history as their guide but they are making God's Word their guide. Some in non-denominational churches are more radical and others are more liberal. It does not mean that they do not hold to a certain set of beliefs that others do. It simply means that their guide is God's Word and they are not looking to men who have formalized a certain set of beliefs or traditions.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2021

If a believer is more liberal in their interpretation of God's Word and they want to see all church denominations unite as one, then they will argue against Non-denominationalism. If a person is for a certain particular denomination that has a brand name or label and a rich church history that supports their beliefs, and they see other churches as acting unbiblically, then, they will also argue against non-denominationalism, as well.

Now, do not misunderstand me here. Declaring that you are Non-denominational does not mean you have a correct theology. It simply means you choose to tell people to look to your life in regards to your beliefs and actions in relation to God's Word and do not look to religious men through history who have appeared to create a certain set of beliefs that appeared to start with one guy. As I said before, one's interpretation of God's Word can be more radical or liberal within non-denominationalism. So one is looking to their beliefs and life, and actions and not to any official church history of men who have formalized a certain set of beliefs. This is how I see non-denominationalism.

Redwingfan9 · Jan 10, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
Ok. We all see folks these days dancing around in various churches who label themselves as "Non-denominational." But I'm wondering about the meaning and denotation of that term since I see people here on C.F. who, as far as I can tell, are sometimes Christians BUT also sometimes not.

And frankly, I don't trust the term. I feel it is too amorphous and possibly obscurantist to mean anything. If a person wants to claim the label of "Christian," even if he or she is like me and feels somewhat Existentialistic about that identity, why doesn't he or she just accept the term, "Christian."

I guess I feel I have to ask because, frankly, I don't trust the variability involved in the term "non-denominational." And the Analytic Philosopher part of my mind just won't let this ambiguity rest; it bothers me.

What does everyone else think? Am I being too stringent in my semantic expecations here?

The problem with the term non-denominational is that it really has no meaning. It's essentially used to describe what used to be known as congregationalist churches. They don't have any connection with the broader church, which means there's no church government overseeing matters.

If we know the denomination of a church we have a general idea what they believe. With non-denominational churches they can literally believe in anything, you'll have no idea just walking in the door.

Scott Husted · Jan 10, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
But your missing the point of non-denominationalism. Such a church is declaring that they are not officially following a certain set of men's beliefs. Sure, many of them may contradict themselves but the point of non-denomitionalism is that it is not following a certain “name brand” or “label” and it is not following a certain set of religious men through history as their guide but they are making God's Word their guide. Some in non-denominational churches are more radical and others are more liberal. It does not mean that they do not hold to a certain set of beliefs that others do. It simply means that their guide is God's Word and they are not looking to men who have formalized a certain set of beliefs or traditions.

Inevitably perception creates a set of beliefs that then become over time formalized by this same means, which includes what people call God's word ...

chilehed · Jan 10, 2021

pescador said:
I am non-denominational, meaning that I decide for myself what the Bible says, even if it disagrees with others' interpretations.

That would make you part of a denomination that has only one member.

Pavel Mosko · Jan 10, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
Ok. We all see folks these days dancing around in various churches who label themselves as "Non-denominational." But I'm wondering about the meaning and denotation of that term since I see people here on C.F. who, as far as I can tell, are sometimes Christians BUT also sometimes not.

Once upon a time I did after being raised conservative Lutheran and being a member of the Wisconsin synod, (and knowing lots of the old Missouri synod folks growing up).

Unhappy with things in my youth especially parochial school, left Christianity in my college years. And came back when I was about to enter graduate school and joined my best friend in my hometown who was in the Charismatic movement. Nondenominational was super popular with the charismatics, since many of the Pentecostal denominations took certain stands against some of the various movements like Latter Rain etc. Being Nondenominational was a little like being "an independent voter" in politics where you want the various politicians to compete for your vote, and in some ways was almost a little like some of the "Seeker Sensitive" stuff that appeared later in the decade of the 90s it signaled that you did not have big ideological commitments other than trying to seek truth from the Bible etc. so as not to scare away any visitors interested in your church or movement.

2PhiloVoid · Jan 10, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
As one who describes himself as non-denominational, let me explain what I mean by it. As an aside, the word "Christian" means many different things to many different people.

A denomination is a structure imposed on believers by an organisation that oversees affiliated churches. It normally involves a particular doctrinal emphasis that it teaches in dedicated theological institutions. Attendance is mandatory if you want to be a part of the leadership. I was a Baptist for the first 5 years of my Christian life, then I became a Pentecostal for 5 years.

I was never a fan of denominations. Why? I travelled a great deal with the Navy. I did not always have a choice as to what denomination I attended. I discovered that there is much more that Christians have in common than they have that divides. Which made me question why Christians so readily dummy spit and form a new denomination.

The problem seems to me to be religious pride and the tremendous organisational inertia in a major denomination. Religious pride believes that the denomination has all the revelation that there is to have and there is nothing that needs to change in the denomination's articles of faith. Should a movement arise within the denomination that seeks change, the inbuilt inertia makes it easier for the group to move rather than the organisation to change. So the Methodists came out of the Anglican church, against Wesley's will. He worked within the Anglican church, and refused to ordain Methodist ministers. I believe that to be a great example of how an individual can make a difference without creating division. It's a shame that his followers were not prepared to do likewise.

I see denominations in general as "fossilised revivals". Often a truth has been rediscovered and a new denomination formed as a result. The reformation only restored some of the Biblical truth lost. So the reformers continued the practice of christening. When the truth of immersion baptism (a tautology) came along, those who preached it were often persecuted and rejected. So another denomination formed. And so on ad nauseam.

Our fellowship does exclude anyone on the basis of denominational affiliation. The only criteria is that the individual be born again and that they are not divisive.

I think I agree with a lot of what you're saying here, brother Aussie Pete. Thanks for offering an extensive response. That's appreciated!

2PhiloVoid · Jan 10, 2021

Scott Husted said:
Non-denomination became a denomination the moment the first group identified themselves as such.

I hear ya. That's kind of the same thing that happened to the Churches of Christ/Christian Church. They wanted to form a new group that was "Christian only and not the only Christian" but they ended up with...........yet another denomination. ^_^

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2021

Scott Husted said:
Inevitably perception creates a set of beliefs that then become over time formalized by this same means, which includes what people call God's word ...

Your not getting what I am saying. But that's okay.

2PhiloVoid · Jan 10, 2021

Pavel Mosko said:
Once upon a time I did after being raised conservative Lutheran and being a member of the Wisconsin synod, (and knowing lots of the old Missouri synod folks growing up).

Unhappy with things in my youth especially parochial school, left Christianity in my college years. And came back when I was about to enter graduate school and joined my best friend in my hometown who was in the Charismatic movement. Nondenominational was super popular with the charismatics, since many of the Pentecostal denominations took certain stands against some of the various movements like Latter Rain etc. Being Nondenominational was a little like being "an independent voter" in politics where you want the various politicians to compete for your vote, and in some ways was almost a little like some of the "Seeker Sensitive" stuff that appeared later in the decade of the 90s it signaled that you did not have big ideological commitments other than trying to seek truth from the Bible etc. so as not to scare away any visitors interested in your church or movement.

That's a reflection of some of my own experiences with folks who use the term "non-denominational." Most Christians in my neck of the woods who identify with this label are usually "charismatic" in their style of faith.

The problem with this label for me (of late) isn't so much that fellow Christians use it but that I see some people now using it who are not only not Charismatic and/or independent Christian, but not Christian at all. They're either trolls or New Agers who infiltrate in.

But whatever. I guess people will be people.

Thanks for the input, Pavel! I always enjoy reading your perspective on things.

Albion · Jan 10, 2021

2PhiloVoid said:
The problem with this label for me (of late) isn't so much that fellow Christians use it but that I see some people now using it who are not only not Charismatic and/or independent Christian, but not Christian at all. They're either trolls or New Agers who infiltrate in.

Trolls will be trolls and that speaks for itself, no matter what profile they pretend to represent. But on the matter of the other group you are referring to (I think), do you see them as mere posers or, OTOH, simply extremely unorthodox Christians somewhat similar to Unitarians who often will insist that they are Christians because they hold Jesus in high regard as a moral leader, some kind of an inspiration for mankind, etc. etc.?

2PhiloVoid · Jan 10, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Non-denominationalism is basically saying... look at my set of beliefs and actions now in regards to following God's Word, and do not look to a certain set of religious men throughout history who have formalized a certain set of beliefs that usually appears to run contary to God's Word and can be traced back to one guy inventing it.

Evangelical radical Christians like to be called non-denominational because they want to follow the narrow way that Jesus talked about (i.e. Just follow His Word alone and not a certain group of religous men through man made history). For Jesus says narrow is the way, and FEW be there that find it. Liberal Christians who identify as non-denominational are simply just doing their own thing and not declaring they have any ties to any formalized named church throughout history.

Well, just for the record, it's not only Liberal Christians or Non-denominational Christians who are doing their "own thing," but also us Existential types. But then, there's a problem in saying that we're doing our own thing when the fact is simply that we're being corralled by the Lord through His Spirit and through His Word in similar ways that other, denominational Christians are being corralled.

In my own case it's kind of ironic to say I have "no ties" to any denomination when the fact is that my own approach to Christianity has culled from all of the various types, tropes, movements, and denominations, with a primary focus upon Jesus and the writings of the 1st century disciples and Apostles. It might be more accurate to say that I have "ties" to all denominations, but I don't have any formal ties to any Christian denomination.

Yet, I'm still truly Christian and no one gets to tell me that I'm not. :dontcare:

"Non-denominational"??? What does that even mean?

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