Does faith justify? (I have an answer, but would like input.

Guojing · Jan 9, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, your not really dealing with the text in what it says but your changing the topic to avoid in explaining what God's Word says. Please explain Galatians 5:24. Explain how Paul was able to write to Jews. Explain how Paul's words in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing. How do you skate around that passage?

I know what scripture says, but your mind is clearly fixed in your thinking so what's the point of explaining to you?

My objective is to alert you of your own biasness, that's all. I am not trying to change your mind regarding what you think scripture says. You are free to have your own opinion on that.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2021

MMXX said:
You basically just told me yourself that you hold a unique personal view of scripture that's not held by anyone else that you could name. Basically that you alone correctly interpret scripture.

You shouldn't be surprised;
For if you understood what God's Word says, you would know that...

Jesus said,

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14).

“But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” (Matthew 24:37).

“...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8).

You would know that Paul said,

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.” (2 Timothy 3:1-9).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2021

Guojing said:
I know what scripture says, but your mind is clearly fixed in your thinking so what's the point of explaining to you?

My objective is to alert you of your own biasness, that's all. I am not trying to change your mind regarding what you think scripture says. You are free to have your own opinion on that.

Don't explain it for me, but explain it for the person who happens to come across this forum and looking for the truth and needs help on explaining the tough verses. But we both know you are not explaining these verses because it is obvious that these verses are not plainly saying what you believe. That's the reason. Just reading Galatians 5:24, Romans 8:13, 2 Corinthians 7:1 Titus 1:16, and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 plainly does not line up with your belief.

Guojing · Jan 9, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Don't explain it for me, but explain it for the person who happens to come across this forum and looking for the truth and needs help on explaining the tough verses. But we both know you are not explaining these verses because it is obvious that these verses are not plainly saying what you believe. That's the reason. Just reading Galatians 5:24, Romans 8:13, 2 Corinthians 7:1 Titus 1:16, and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 plainly does not line up with your belief.

My objective in entering this thread again is stated in Does faith justify? (I am not asking because I don't know).

I am not coming in to explain the scripture you listed. I will leave that to other interested parties.

Ceallaigh · Jan 9, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
You shouldn't be surprised;
For if you understood what God's Word says, you would know that...

Jesus said,

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14).

“But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” (Matthew 24:37).

“...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8).

You would know that Paul said,

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.” (2 Timothy 3:1-9).

I know what Jesus said and Paul and James and Peter and John and whoever wrote Hebrews (probably Paul) and Jude. I have read them and studied them and have had them taught to me in church and Bible studies and school and in lectures I've attended and listed to. And because of all that and my familiarity with it, that I have had a problem with you yourself have been saying. And your apparent belief that you alone have a correct understanding and interpretation of scripture.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2021

MMXX said:
I know what Jesus said, and Paul and James and Peter and John and whoever wrote Hebrews (probably Paul). I have read them and studied them and have had them taught to me in church and Bible studies and school and in lectures I've attended and listed to. And because of all that and my familiarity with it, that I have had a problem with you yourself have been saying. And your apparent belief that you alone have a correct understanding and interpretation of scripture.

Did you read again the verses I posted to you?
Do you still not get it after reading them?
Jesus said narrow is the way and FEW be there that find it.
Jesus basically said when He returns, will He find faith on the earth?
When I quote certain words of Jesus, they are not believed by many believers today.

Take for example the parable of the prodigal son: We learn that the father said to his son when he came home and sought forgiveness with him that he was “dead” and he is “alive AGAIN.” (See: Luke 15:24). This parable is clearly speaking in spiritual terms. Yet, many believers don't believe these words by our Lord Jesus. For even you said in disagreement that a believer cannot go from being, dead/alive, dead, alive, dead, alive, etc.; Yet, this is what the parable is plainly teaching. For how else do you explain the words, “alive AGAIN”?

Side Note:

Whatever verses a Christian does not like or believe, those verses are not going to remain on the inside of them. It's going to be as if these verses do not even exist for them. It's like the parable of the sower. The seed of the Word of God is not going to be sown into their heart and produce the necessary fruit.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2021

Guojing said:
My objective in entering this thread again is stated in Does faith justify? (I am not asking because I don't know).

I am not coming in to explain the scripture you listed. I will leave that to other interested parties.

I see that the “work of faith” in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11 as a part of our “faith.” For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). So all of the NT Scripture is a part of the faith. Any commands, and or instruction in righteousness are all a part of the faith. This is the faith that justifies just as much as our faith in Jesus as our Savior justifies. For 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 basically says that the call of the gospel is... God having chosen us to salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit, and a belief of the truth.

Guojing · Jan 9, 2021

Ceallaigh · Jan 10, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Did you read again the verses I posted to you?
Do you still not get it after reading them?
Jesus said narrow is the way and FEW be there that find it.
Jesus basically said when He returns, will He find faith on the earth?
When I quote certain words of Jesus, they are not believed by many believers today.

Take for example the parable of the prodigal son: We learn that the father said to his son when he came home and sought forgiveness with him that he was “dead” and he is “alive AGAIN.” (See: Luke 15:24). This parable is clearly speaking in spiritual terms. Yet, many believers don't believe these words by our Lord Jesus. For even you said in disagreement that a believer cannot go from being, dead/alive, dead, alive, dead, alive, etc.; Yet, this is what the parable is plainly teaching. For how else do you explain the words, “alive AGAIN”?

Side Note:

Whatever verses a Christian does not like or believe, those verses are not going to remain on the inside of them. It's going to be as if these verses do not even exist for them. It's like the parable of the sower. The seed of the Word of God is not going to be sown into their heart and produce the necessary fruit.

In Luke 15:11-32 the son left his his father. He severed all ties. He cut the cord. And he completely squandered what his father had given him. He completely abandoned and squandered everything. Jesus is illustrating full separation and full abandonment. On the part of the son, not the father.

“But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him."

His father was waiting for him, and while his son was still off in the distance his father was filled with compassion for him, threw his arms around him and kissed him. The son hadn't even gotten to his father before he was filled with compassion for his son. His father hugged him and kissed him, BEFORE the son confessed to him.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

Do you see the sequence? It seems quite clear the father forgave the son, before the son confessed to him. Forgave him while he was still off in the distance. As a matter of fact there's no indication the father even condemned his son, he was just eagerly awaiting his return.

In this story the Father didn't abandon his son, the son abandoned the father. The father didn't cut off his son, the son cut off the father. The father didn't take anything away from his son.

In your version of this, based on my understanding of what you're saying, the son is cut off from the father every time he does something wrong. That in this relationship the son doesn't have to completely separate from his father. That things don't have to be at absolute extremes. But rather every single time the son does something wrong, while still at home, the Father disowns him until his son confesses. In your version the story goes on and on page after page. The son dies over and over again. That's not the story that Jesus told.

Ceallaigh · Jan 10, 2021

I think I've figured this out. Anyone who's not in complete agreement with you must be one of those cheap grace it's okay for christians to sin heretics.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2021

MMXX said:
I think I've figured this out. Anyone who's not in complete agreement with you must be one of those cheap grace it's okay for christians to sin heretics.

I believe there are different degrees of justifying sin and both are wrong according to God's Holy Word. For remember, it only took one sin for all of mankind to be affected by the fall. If a serial killer decided he was only going to kill every 10 years because he cannot help himself, it does not make the crime or sin any less heinous. The same would be true if he decided to do so only every 50 years. It's still justifying sin. So when we say we can abide in any kind of sin that leads to spiritual death according to the Bible and be saved while doing so, it is turning God's grace into a license for immorality and it opens the door to committing lots of horrible sins with the thinking that they are saved still.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2021

MMXX said:
In Luke 15:11-32 the son left his his father. He severed all ties. He cut the cord. And he completely squandered what his father had given him. He completely abandoned and squandered everything. Jesus is illustrating full separation and full abandonment. On the part of the son, not the father.

“But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him."

His father was waiting for him, and while his son was still off in the distance his father was filled with compassion for him, threw his arms around him and kissed him. The son hadn't even gotten to his father before he was filled with compassion for his son. His father hugged him and kissed him, BEFORE the son confessed to him.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

But the father did not say his son was “dead” and is “alive again” before he confessed of his sins. We know in the story that the son was willing to confess of his sins to his father, and before all of heaven before he went home (Luke 15:18). The son was not unwilling to do these things, and his father knew that.

In fact, the father kissing his son proves that the father being spoken of here is a parallel to the Lord because God knows all things (Especially of the event of the son's willing to confess of his sins beforehand as shown in Luke 15:18). The father in this story is Jesus Christ (second person of the Trinity) because He is our everlasting father. For one day, faithful Christians will be resurrected bodily after the likeness of Christ's DNA. For Jesus is the One in whom we seek forgiveness with in order to get right with God the Father (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9). For Jesus is the only mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5).

You said:
Do you see the sequence? It seems quite clear the father forgave the son, before the son confessed to him. Forgave him while he was still off in the distance. As a matter of fact there's no indication the father even condemned his son, he was just eagerly awaiting his return.

This is not a scenario where the son was coming home to the father so as to pretend that he changed (when in reality he didn't change) and whereby he would sneak in some prostitutes into his bedroom late at night once he worked up in having enough money from his father.

You said:
In this story the Father didn't abandon his son, the son abandoned the father. The father didn't cut off his son, the son cut off the father. The father didn't take anything away from his son.

In your version of this, based on my understanding of what you're saying, the son is cut off from the father every time he does something wrong. That in this relationship the son doesn't have to completely separate from his father. That things don't have to be at absolute extremes. But rather every single time the son does something wrong, while still at home, the Father disowns him until his son confesses. In your version the story goes on and on page after page. The son dies over and over again. That's not the story that Jesus told.

So in your belief, a Christian can sleep around with prostitutes and still be saved while doing so?

Besides, you are not really explaining how your belief works with the words in how the son was said to be “dead” and “alive AGAIN.” (John 15:24).

How does your belief even line up with these words? They simply don't.

Ceallaigh · Jan 10, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
But the father did not say his son was “dead” and is “alive again” before he confessed of his sins. We know in the story that the son was willing to confess of his sins to his father, and before all of heaven before he went home (Luke 15:18). The son was not unwilling to do these things, and his father knew that.

In fact, the father kissing his son proves that the father being spoken of here is a parallel to the Lord because God knows all things (Especially of the event of the son's willing to confess of his sins beforehand as shown in Luke 15:18). The father in this story is Jesus Christ (second person of the Trinity) because He is our everlasting father. For one day, faithful Christians will be resurrected bodily after the likeness of Christ's DNA. For Jesus is the One in whom we seek forgiveness with in order to get right with God the Father (1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9). For Jesus is the only mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5).

This is not a scenario where the son was coming home to the father so as to pretend that he changed (when in reality he didn't change) and whereby he would sneak in some prostitutes into his bedroom late at night once he worked up in having enough money from his father.

So in your belief, a Christian can sleep around with prostitutes and still be saved while doing so?

Besides, you are not really explaining how your belief works with the words in how the son was said to be “dead” and “alive AGAIN.” (John 15:24).

How does your belief even line up with these words? They simply don't.

The son was alive while he was with his father. The son died when he left his father. He became alive AGAIN when he came back to his father.

I have a cousin / best friend who was in Christ from childhood. But when he was about 36 he stopped being a Christian. He said "I am no longer a Christian" and he meant it. However a few years later he came back to Christ and became a Christian AGAIN.

Jesus is the vine, my cousin was a branch attached to the vine. When he cut himself off from the vine he died. When he attached himself back to the vine, he became alive AGAIN.

My cousin was spiritually dead while he was in apostasy. Apostasy is the abandonment or renunciation of belief in God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

Ceallaigh · Jan 10, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe there are different degrees of justifying sin and both are wrong according to God's Holy Word. For remember, it only took one sin for all of mankind to be affected by the fall. If a serial killer decided he was only going to kill every 10 years because he cannot help himself, it does not make the crime or sin any less heinous. The same would be true if he decided to do so only every 50 years. It's still justifying sin. So when we say we can abide in any kind of sin that leads to spiritual death according to the Bible and be saved while doing so, it is turning God's grace into a license for immorality and it opens the door to committing lots of horrible sins with the thinking that they are saved still.

People turn confession into a licence to sin as well. "All I have to do is confess this sin I'm about to commit, after I've had my fun, and I will be forgiven". That has been the pattern of serial pedophile priests. They molest, get absolution, molest, get absolution, molest, get absolution.

Either way, it's turning grace into a licence to sin. But God is not tricked by such games. He knows your heart. No matter what you say, what ritual you go though, God knows whether or not you really abide in Him.

There's a difference between stumbling and practicing sin. Practicing sin is like a doctor practicing medicine. Practicing sin is like a full time occupation of sinning. One who is fully dedicated to sin, rather than someone who stumbles here and there. Your contention is that every single time a disciple of Christ stumbles, he loses his salvation.

Ceallaigh · Jan 10, 2021

When it comes to Matthew 7:23 Jesus says "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity". That's not Jesus breaking off the relationship, that's Jesus saying there never was a relationship. They didn't lose their salvation, they never had salvation to begin with. They acknowledged Jesus, professed Him as Lord, but Jesus never knew them.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 10, 2021

Busy at work. I will reply later when I am home and I have time. Working late, so I may get a chance to reply tomorrow morning (Lord willing).

May God’s love shine upon you today.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2021

MMXX said:
The son was alive while he was with his father. The son died when he left his father. He became alive AGAIN when he came back to his father.

I have a cousin / best friend who was in Christ from childhood. But when he was about 36 he stopped being a Christian. He said "I am no longer a Christian" and he meant it. However a few years later he came back to Christ and became a Christian AGAIN.

Jesus is the vine, my cousin was a branch attached to the vine. When he cut himself off from the vine he died. When he attached himself back to the vine, he became alive AGAIN.

My cousin was spiritually dead while he was in apostasy. Apostasy is the abandonment or renunciation of belief in God the Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

First, one cannot fall away from the core principle doctrines of Christ and lay again the foundation of repentance and of faith towards God. Meaning, we cannot reject the foundational principle of believing in Jesus as our Savior by faith. For we cannot fall away from Christ by rejecting Him (i.e. Apostasy), and expect to repent again. It is not possible if such a believer has previously been enlightened, has tasted of the heavenly gift, they were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and tasted of the good word of God, the powers of the world to come. For they would be crucifying to themselves the Son of God again, and putting Him to an open shame.

“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” (Hebrews 6:1-6).

Second, in the “Parable of the Prodigal Son” there is no indication that the son was rejecting his father. There is nothing in the parable that says, “and the son rejected his father and wanted nothing to do with him anymore;” The son merely squandered his inheritance on living a lifestyle of sin. According to Luke 15:30 we learn that the prodigal son spent his inheritance on living with prostitutes. For the prodigal son's brother said to the father, “But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.” (Luke 15:30). This is the reason why he was “dead.”

Three, this same truth is told to us James 5:19-20.

“Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” (James 5:19-20).

Meaning, if any one of us believers errs (goes away) from the truth (i.e. Jesus's good ways), and one of us believers converts this sinning believer from the error of his ways (by getting them to confess of their sins to Jesus), we should know that we have helped to save this soul (believer) from death, and we have helped to hide a multitude of of their sins (by pointing them to Jesus and His Word). Notice carefully in verse 20 the part that says, “which coverteth the sinner from the error of his way”; We are told that if they were to err in this way and we convert them back, we should know that we have helped to save a soul from death (spiritual death), and we have helped to hide a multitude of their sins (no doubt by getting them to confess of their sins to Jesus Christ). For we learn in Psalms 51 about how king David sought forgiveness with the Lord in order to be forgiven of sin (See: Psalms 51:1-2, Psalms 51:7, and Psalms 51:9). To be forgiven of sin is dealing with salvation. “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;” (Ephesians 1:7).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2021

MMXX said:
People turn confession into a licence to sin as well. "All I have to do is confess this sin I'm about to commit, after I've had my fun, and I will be forgiven". That has been the pattern of serial pedophile priests. They molest, get absolution, molest, get absolution, molest, get absolution.

You use the word “absolution” which sounds like confessing sins to a priest within Catholicism. As I said, I do not agree with Catholicism or Orthodox churches (or anything even remotely like that all). I believe in Sola Scriptura in that the Bible alone is our sole authority on all matters of faith and practice. Traditions of men cannot be added to God's Word. There is nothing in NT Scripture about how we need to confess of our sins to a priest so as to be forgiven of our sins. Believers are to go directly to Jesus Christ as their advocate (1 John 2:1), and confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven (1 John 1:9). For Jesus is the only mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5). But, yes; We need to confess and forsake sin in order to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13). I never said otherwise. We need to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Just paying empty lip service to Jesus with no real change in a person's life will not save anyone. Jesus says: Not everyone who says unto me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven (Matthew 7:21).

You said:
Either way, it's turning grace into a licence to sin. But God is not tricked by such games. He knows your heart. No matter what you say, what ritual you go though, God knows whether or not you really abide in Him.

The problem is that if the Bible teaches that we can overcome sin (that leads unto spiritual death) in this life (and it does: See: Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1), and yet a believer declares the opposite of that truth by saying that no believer can overcome such sin completely in this life, then they are speaking contrary to His Word and turning God's grace into a license for immorality. For while believers can stumble into sin (that leads unto spiritual death) on rare occasion, this does not mean God's Word teaches that we can never overcome sin (that leads unto spiritual death) in this life.

You said:
There's a difference between stumbling and practicing sin. Practicing sin is like a doctor practicing medicine. Practicing sin is like a full time occupation of sinning. One who is fully dedicated to sin, rather than someone who stumbles here and there. Your contention is that every single time a disciple of Christ stumbles, he loses his salvation.

Therein lies the problem. You believe king David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. Yet, this is not the case.

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

David surely was living in sin within a time in his life. This is the deception of saying that one can stumble into sin and still be saved and yet the only way a believer can die by sin is by living in sin as a lifestyle or way of life.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2021

MMXX said:
When it comes to Matthew 7:23 Jesus says "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity". That's not Jesus breaking off the relationship, that's Jesus saying there never was a relationship. They didn't lose their salvation, they never had salvation to begin with. They acknowledged Jesus, professed Him as Lord, but Jesus never knew them.

Ezekiel 18:24 may shed possible light on Jesus's words when He says, "I never knew you." in Matthew 7:23.

Ezekiel 18:24 says that if a righteous person does iniquity (sin), all their previous righteousness will not be remembered. Seeing God associates with the righteous, he will no longer remember them anymore. It will be as if He... never knew them. For there is nothing to remember because no previous righteousness exists anymore.

It is worth taking note that the reason why Jesus told them to depart from Him was not because they did many wonderful works, but it was because they worked iniquity (sin).

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:23).

Even if Ezekiel 18:24 was not a proper explanation on Matthew 7:23, this does not mean that the Bible does not teach elsewhere that a believer cannot be condemned by sin. See...

Matthew 5:28-30
Matthew 6:15
Matthew 12:37
Matthew 25:31-46
Luke 9:62
Luke 10:25-28 cf. John 14:15, and 1 Corinthians 16:22

In fact, we know that Adam committed one sin that led to the fall of all of mankind. His one sin had a hugely bad impact. Adam was told that he would die that day he sinned. But he did not die physically, but he died spiritually. This means Adam needed to get his heart right with God in order to have spiritual life again. We also learn that Ananias and Sapphira each committed the sin of lying to God and a great fear came upon the church and all who heard of it. This means that they died spiritually for committing a one time sin. For the emotion of fear only makes sense to believers if they know that they could also potentially commit a serious sin that could condemn them, too. For Paul says to live is Christ, and to die is gain. Jesus said fear not the one who can kill the body, but fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire). So believers are taught not to fear death.

In Matthew 7:23, I believe these are believers but they believed in a wrong version of Jesus in that they thought they could sin and still be saved. Whether they always believed that way is unclear.

But they cast out demons in His name. This means they believed in Jesus. It is just not the same Jesus as described in the Bible. Yes, sure, they may even say they followed the Bible, but I believe they twisted and distorted Scripture to justify sin and evil (on some level) thereby creating their own version of Jesus (Whereby the real Christ did not know them).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 11, 2021

@MMXX

I will use the word “grievous sin” to refer to “mortal sin” so as to distance myself from terms used by the Catholic church in my discussion with you (Note: This does not mean I may not use the term “mortal sin” in another thread at a later time for clarity to others that I am not promoting Sinless Perfection - which is not allowed in this section of the forums). Anyways, you appear to believe that believers will always keep stumbling into grievous sin in this life and that they cannot overcome grievous sin this side of heaven. No doubt you believe this aligns with your interpretation on 1 John 1:8 (even though 1 John 1:8 is referring to the gnostic belief that deny sin's existence in some way with the proper prescription being 1 John 1:9).

1 Corinthians 2:16 says,
“...we have the mind of Christ.”

Now, if Paul says we have the mind of Christ, then we must conclude that we cannot think or have a mindset that justifies sin by saying we must stumble into grievous sin again in this life or that we can never overcome grevious sin this side of Heaven. Jesus said to two people to “sin no more” (John 5:14) (John 8:11). Jesus never justified sin or thought He must stumble into sin as a part of some fallen human condition. So if this was the mind of Christ, then we must also have the same mind, as well. But that is not the kind of mind I hear when I speak to believers today. They don't have the mind of Christ. Remember. Jesus said narrow is the way and FEW be there that find it. This means that most are not going to make it. Why? Because they stumbled at the stumbling stone in being disobedient to the Word (1 Peter 2:8). For Jesus basically says in John 12:48 that if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day. What words are believers not receiving today? Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28, etc.

Does faith justify? (I have an answer, but would like input.

Does faith justify?

Yes

No

I don't know.

Other (Please explain)

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

May God be with you and bless you.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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