Concerning the Return of Jesus

parousia70

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Here are two things we know about the return of Jesus: He will come at a time when we do not expect him, and life will be relatively normal when he returns. There seems to be a substantial penalty for not being ready for his return. It's not entirely clear what "ready" means?
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Well, to be fair, there only seems to be a “substantial penalty” for not being ready if you happen to be alive at the time of His return... Christians from all previous centuries to ours who did not live their lives in a state of “readiness for his return” will suffer no consequences for their lack of readiness whatsoever.

There are over a billion Christians who came before us, who will not be punished just because they correctly believed in the fact that it would not happen in their lifetime.

So, as long as it doesn’t happen In your lifetime, and odds are it won’t, there is no penalty at all for not being ready.
You can simply live out your Christian life, preach the gospel of the good news, and focus on leaving this world a better place than it was when you got here, and you’ll be just fine.
 
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keras

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If you are correct, why did Christ correct the woman at the well when she said earthly Jerusalem is the place to worship?
Because for the next nearly 2000 years, that was correct.

But not permanently as prophesies like this tell us:
Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the land and will live there forever.

Why do you have any objection to this truth?
Nowhere in scripture does it say that any people group will go to live in heaven. Eventually God and heaven come to us. Revelation 21:1-7
 
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Timtofly

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After Matthew 24:29 comes verse 30, the 2nd coming. So where is there room for another tribulation after verse 29 but before verse 30?
Verse 35 goes all the way to the end of the millennium. Verse 36 starts again before the Second Coming.
 
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Timtofly

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Well, to be fair, there only seems to be a “substantial penalty” for not being ready if you happen to be alive at the time of His return... Christians from all previous centuries to ours who did not live their lives in a state of “readiness for his return” will suffer no consequences for their lack of readiness whatsoever.

There are over a billion Christians who came before us, who will not be punished just because they correctly believed in the fact that it would not happen in their lifetime.

So, as long as it doesn’t happen In your lifetime, and odds are it won’t, there is no penalty at all for not being ready.
You can simply live out your Christian life, preach the gospel of the good news, and focus on leaving this world a better place than it was when you got here, and you’ll be just fine.
They will be held responsible for the harvest in their time. The blood of lost souls will be on their hands though. That is the same penalty the living will have at the return as well. That is being prepared at all times, is the harvest itself.
 
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BABerean2

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But not permanently as prophesies like this tell us:
Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the land and will live there forever.

Why do you have any objection to this truth?


Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

.
 
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keras

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Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city .
Typically your translation, i assume KJV, is confusing;
Hebrews 11:15-16 If their thoughts had been with the country they had left, they could have had opportunity to return. Instead they desired a better country, a heavenly one. That is why God is not ashamed to be their God and He has a city ready for them. REBible.

This scripture does not say they or anyone will go to heaven and we know from Revelation 21:1-2, that that city comes to the earth.
Why do you have any objections to this truth?
 
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nolidad

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This unsupported comment is totally incorrect. Unless you provide scriptural proof, pleas retract it.

I have a page full of verses that say our destiny is the holy Land.

What you actually have is a page full of retranslated verses showing the churches destiny is the holy land.

But REv. 19 shows the church in heaven and John 14 jesus told us that He was going to prepare a place for us in His Fathers house.

Paul also said when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord! You have no problem allegorizing these away just like you allegorize Israel to mean the chruch in so many passages.
 
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nolidad

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Typically your translation, i assume KJV, is confusing;
Hebrews 11:15-16 If their thoughts had been with the country they had left, they could have had opportunity to return. Instead they desired a better country, a heavenly one. That is why God is not ashamed to be their God and He has a city ready for them. REBible.

This scripture does not say they or anyone will go to heaven and we know from Revelation 21:1-2, that that city comes to the earth.
Why do you have any objections to this truth?


Straining at non existent gnats to swallow a blue whale!
 
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keras

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But REv. 19 shows the church in heaven
Revelation 19:1 After this I heard what sounded like a vast throng in heaven......
It does not say the Church.
We are told who they are, in Revelation 6:9-11 they are the souls of all those killed for their testimony of Jesus.
They are dead people, but God does allow them to cry out at times.
John 14 jesus told us that He was going to prepare a place for us in His Fathers house.
Which will come to us, Revelation 21:1-2, NOT we go to it.
Your belief and assumption that people go to heaven is wrong and was never part of God's plan for mankind.
 
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Daniel B.

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Hey, I have a question that I'm curious to see how people answer on here.

If it were to happen, and there was a person claiming to be the Christ, how would you know what to look for? What would it take for you to believe that the person indeed was the Christ?
 
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BABerean2

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Typically your translation, i assume KJV, is confusing;
Hebrews 11:15-16 If their thoughts had been with the country they had left, they could have had opportunity to return. Instead they desired a better country, a heavenly one. That is why God is not ashamed to be their God and He has a city ready for them. REBible.

This scripture does not say they or anyone will go to heaven and we know from Revelation 21:1-2, that that city comes to the earth.
Why do you have any objections to this truth?


You are confusing a piece of land on this rotten, sin-cursed earth, with one which will eventually come here at Christ's Second Coming.

See 2 Peter 3:10-13, if you do not understand the difference.

.
 
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Timtofly

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Typically your translation, i assume KJV, is confusing;
Hebrews 11:15-16 If their thoughts had been with the country they had left, they could have had opportunity to return. Instead they desired a better country, a heavenly one. That is why God is not ashamed to be their God and He has a city ready for them. REBible.

This scripture does not say they or anyone will go to heaven and we know from Revelation 21:1-2, that that city comes to the earth.
Why do you have any objections to this truth?
Are you saying those like yourself who make it to Paradise will lose their memories, and if not, want to come back? I am sure it will be clear to all who have been changed into an incorruptible body prior to the Second Coming, they cannot come back to earth.

Do you object to Paul's Holy Spirit inspired change, even to us alive and remain at the Second Coming? A glorified body, shining like a star as in the Transfiguration, would be cool to be a thorn in Satan's side, but even some will still choose Satan over a glorified body. One will not win any more souls to Christ with a glorified body, than they can today in sinful flesh.

If you think only dead people are glorified in the 5th Seal, then you object to all Paul wrote on when the church is glorified. Why would some be glorified and others wait for a thousand years? The church is complete and offered to God before the 7th Seal is opened. Even the 144k are sealed with God’s name before the 7th Seal is opened. They are staying on the earth, but it never states they are ever glorified. They are not part of the church. They are the firstfruits of the Millennium. Revelation 14:3-5

3 They were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living beings and the elders, and no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who have been ransomed from the world.
4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; they follow the Lamb wherever he goes; they have been ransomed from among humanity as firstfruits for God and the Lamb;
5 on their lips no lie was found — they are without defect.
 
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Timtofly

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Hey, I have a question that I'm curious to see how people answer on here.

If it were to happen, and there was a person claiming to be the Christ, how would you know what to look for? What would it take for you to believe that the person indeed was the Christ?
The nail prints in His hands and feet, for starters. When the Lamb comes in the 6th Seal standing next to God on the throne, all humanity will know. No one will miss a throne that all on earth can see at the same time.
 
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keras

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Do you object to Paul's Holy Spirit inspired change, even to us alive and remain at the Second Coming?
There is no change to any living humans when Jesus Returns. The wicked will die and the faithful Christians will be transported to where He is, which will be Jerusalem. As prophesied in Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17
 
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Timtofly

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There is no change to any living humans when Jesus Returns. The wicked will die and the faithful Christians will be transported to where He is, which will be Jerusalem. As prophesied in Matthew 24:31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:17
1 Corinthians 15:50-51

50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot transport into the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays transport into what does not decay.
51 Look, I will tell you a secret — not all of us will die! But we will all be transported!
 
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keras

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1 Corinthians 15:50-51

50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot transport into the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays transport into what does not decay.
51 Look, I will tell you a secret — not all of us will die! But we will all be transported!
1 Cor 13:50-56, is a prophecy for Eternity; after the Millennium. Proved how it is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

The transportation, as described in Matthew 24:31, will be the same as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39

The fanciful idea of 'glorified bodies', is not said to happen at the Return. During the Millennium, we will live longer, however. Isaiah 65:20
 
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Spiritual Jew

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James 3:1 My friends, not many of you should become teachers, because you may be certain that we who teach will ourselves face a more severe judgement.
Many scriptures warn against leading the flock astray.
They are not leading people away from Christ just because their end times views about "the rapture" are wrong. We're talking about Christians here who love the Lord and serve Him. What judgment exactly do you think they will incur? Don't make that claim about them without explaining exactly what you mean by that.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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1 Cor 13:50-56, is a prophecy for Eternity; after the Millennium. Proved how it is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

The transportation, as described in Matthew 24:31, will be the same as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39

The fanciful idea of 'glorified bodies', is not said to happen at the Return. During the Millennium, we will live longer, however. Isaiah 65:20
Jesus returns at the last trumpet. You can see in 1 Cor 15:50-56 that the dead in Christ rise at the last trumpet and their bodies are then "changed" to be incorruptible and immortal. Earlier in the chapter Paul said that the dead in Christ rise at His return (1 Cor 15:22-23). That means the dead in Christ are resurrected and changed to have spiritual, immortal bodies when Christ returns at the last trumpet.

You are not allowing scripture to interpret scripture for you. If you learned to do that then your false understanding of end times doctrine would be corrected.
 
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Daniel B.

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The nail prints in His hands and feet, for starters. When the Lamb comes in the 6th Seal standing next to God on the throne, all humanity will know. No one will miss a throne that all on earth can see at the same time.

Okay, I get what you mean, regarding the "Lamb/6th Seal, next to God" symbolism, more or less (given the inherent need to interpret), but I'm thinking practically, like in real life. That's why I'm glad you included the bit about the nail marks.

I'm thinking about it from a different angle, and not just in terms of the Scripture and how we interpret it, though that's obviously paramount, since that's clearly part of the story/stories and the faith--otherwise it wouldn't be much grist for discussion.

Let's just say, as a hypothetical example, that someone had a miracle happen to him, and he found out he was the One. But it happens when no one else is there, like with Moses, Abraham, and incidences like that.

The catch is this--how does he now start telling people? Like, does he go on YouTube and start making videos, or what? Website, Facebook group, perhaps? Twitter feed? Obvious kind of stuff, but isn't that how we communicate in the modern age, and wouldn't it look strange if someone was out there trying to make this claim and meaning it?

What I'm wondering is this--how would that person be able to convince people other that it is indeed HE who is the ONE? I like the notion that it would be unmistakeable, if that's how you feel about it.

But I'm wondering--would it be? And for whom, when people have all these ideas about what it would involve?

(Subquestion to ponder, pardon my sense of humour--what if it is indeed the Christ, but he didn't have nail marks, because he's in a new body this time around? And if he's not in a new body somehow, but he had the healing powers--would he be able to do something about the scars? What if his body had super-healing properties, such that his wounds healed way better than everyone else's, and the scars faded over the years, like an old tattoo? And it may sound like I'm kidding, but really, isn't it the case that we don't know? And that's the idea?)

And what if they don't like what they hear, and it's the time of Judgment?

Would that be a test? Do any of you see it that way? I guess what I'm getting at is--what if it's like that?

I must say, I'm new to Christian discussions and I'm not familiar with how their online communities go, so it's interesting to me to see the variety of viewpoints, opinions, and interpretations. I guess I mean--please be compassionate and know that I'm not a seasoned veteran of a Christian community. If this question is best posed as a new thread, I'll be happy to do that.

(Partial disclosure of where I'm coming from: Born to a Catholic family, went agnostic before high school, returned to faith as a general spiritual principle, and then arrived at sympathy with the Christian view through historical and philosophical study.)
 
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keras

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You are not allowing scripture to interpret scripture for you. If you learned to do that then your false understanding of end times doctrine would be corrected.
That is what I do, if you actually read my articles, you would see that.

Jesus returns at the last trumpet. You can see in 1 Cor 15:50-56 that the dead in Christ rise at the last trumpet and their bodies are then "changed" to be incorruptible and immortal. Earlier in the chapter Paul said that the dead in Christ rise at His return (1 Cor 15:22-23). That means the dead in Christ are resurrected and changed to have spiritual, immortal bodies when Christ returns at the last trumpet.
You are wrong and have been proved wrong.
Jesus does not return until all the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are over.

The last Trump happens after the Millennium, to raise all the dead for Judgment.

Paul does not say 'all' the dead will be raised when Jesus Returns. Only the trib martyrs, as Revelation 20:4 says.

Spiritual, immortal bodies cannot be given until the Book of Life is opened. At the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium.
 
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