Does faith justify? (I have an answer, but would like input.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2021

Guojing said:
Yeah, this is one thing I don't get from people who discuss bible interpretation.

So many of them keep insisting that what they are discussing is what scripture "plainly/clearly" says.

Why do they not realized that they are not reading scripture in a vacuum, no one does. When we read scripture, we are influenced by the church we attend, the Internet sermons we have listened, the bible commentaries we have read and so on and so forth.

Some of them even claim that they are in their 60s and 70s, doesn't that realization comes with age?

Yet, sometimes when I ask others to explain certain verses, they go either ignored or they twist the verse to say something utterly foreign to what the verse actually says and it does not even line up with the context, either. Take for example 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, 2 Corinthians 7:1, John 5:14, and John 8:11. Most just try to re-write these verses or they ignore them. Why? Because they don't like these verses in what they say. It's that simple. God's Word talks about this.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2021

“Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:” (2 Corinthians 3:12).

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2021

MMXX said:
Yeah I know that. I was just using your verse to show there are other interpretations. You seem to do a lot of proof texting rather than exegesis.

Really I believe Paul is talking about apostasy. I'm pretty sure that's the majority view.

The same with the prodigal son, and others like Luke 9:62.

Apostasy, especially converting back to Judaism.

I bet a lot of your loss of salvation proof texts are about apostasy.

So when the prodigal son went prodigal he was facing apostasy? Surely not. Apostasy is dealing with unforgivable sins or rejecting Jesus Christ as your Savior. Luke 9:62 is dealing with preaching the gospel and then looking back to your old life in not doing that anymore. If one put his hand to the plow (preach the gospel) and one looks back, they are not fit for the kingdom of God. This does not suggest that they are forever condemned by any means.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2021

MMXX said:
I've been through this before where someone had a unique view that had been cobbled together over a period years. Unless you have some reliable sources to back you up, I'm not going to keep going in circles with this. Show me a well known apologist, theologian, minister et al who backs up what you're saying. Otherwise it's just cottage theology.

Wow. So unless a popular or respected theologian endorses it, you will not hear what the Word of God says? What verse or passage leads you to this conclusion?

Guojing · Jan 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Yet, sometimes when I ask others to explain certain verses, they go either ignored or they twist the verse to say something utterly foreign to what the verse actually says and it does not even line up with the context, either. Take for example 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, 2 Corinthians 7:1, John 5:14, and John 8:11. Most just try to re-write these verses or they ignore them. Why? Because they don't like these verses in what they say. It's that simple. God's Word talks about this.

To you they are twisting, but ever consider the possibility that others also regard you as "twisting" scripture too?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2021

MMXX said:
One thing that crossed my mind is that the confession system can also be used as a ticket to sin. That's why there's priests who have a string of victims. abuse kid, confess, abuse kid, confess, abuse kid, confess. Either system can be misused. But God is not mocked and knows what's in a man's heart regardless of whatever theological system he's operating under.

So king David was wrong for confessing his sins to God in Psalms 51?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2021

Guojing said:
To you they are twisting, but ever consider the possibility that others also regard you as "twisting" scripture too?

They have to prove that I am doing so. For example: I am sure most Belief Alone Proponents would think I am not believing Ephesians 2:8-9. But they fail to read the whole counsel of God's Word in that Paul taught elsewhere that we need sanctification of the Spirit as a part of salvation in the call of the gospel (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Paul says in Romans 8:13 that if you live after the flesh, you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit, you will live. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is teaching two different aspects of salvation. Also, I believe Paul is attacking the false heresy of Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5. Also, Ephesians 2:8-9 needs to be read in context. We are quickened by Christ (Ephesians 2:1). When are we quickened? When we first came to the Lord. Grace is like a gift (Ephesians 2:8). When do we receive the gift? When we first came to the Lord. So Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to Initial and Foundational Salvation. It's not talking about the next step or stage in God's plan of salvation by any means. One has to rightly divide.

But when I ask most Christians to explain verses like 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1, the response is either a totally foreign explanation that goes beyond what the verses says and or they ignore them. There is no explanation like the one I give whereby a person reads it in a way that believes what those words are saying in these verses. For I fully believe every word in Ephesians 2:8-9. Paul is attacking Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace.

Guojing · Jan 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
They have to prove that I am doing so. For example: I am sure most Belief Alone Proponents would think I am not believing Ephesians 2:8-9. But they fail to read the whole counsel of God's Word in that Paul taught elsewhere that we need sanctification of the Spirit as a part of salvation in the call of the gospel (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Paul says in Romans 8:13 that if you live after the flesh, you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit, you will live. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is teaching two different aspects of salvation. Also, I believe Paul is attacking the false heresy of Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace in Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:3-5, and Titus 3:5. Also, Ephesians 2:8-9 needs to be read in context. We are quickened by Christ (Ephesians 2:1). When are we quickened? When we first came to the Lord. Grace is like a gift (Ephesians 2:8). When do we receive the gift? When we first came to the Lord. So Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to Initial and Foundational Salvation. It's not talking about the next step or stage in God's plan of salvation by any means. One has to rightly divide.

But when I ask most Christians to explain verses like 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, and 2 Corinthians 7:1, the response is either a totally foreign explanation that goes beyond what the verses says and or they ignore them. There is no explanation like the one I give whereby a person reads it in a way that believes what those words are saying in these verses. For I fully believe every word in Ephesians 2:8-9. Paul is attacking Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace.

You don't realize that, once you form a belief, it is very difficult for strangers over the Internet to change your mind?

You heard of the term "confirmation bias"?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2021

Guojing said:
You don't realize that, once you form a belief, it is very difficult for strangers over the Internet to change your mind?

You heard of the term "confirmation bias"?

I can say the same for you, as well. It doesn't really prove your correct that this applies to me. What you need to do is address the verses I brought forth and explain them with Scripture. For if truth is on your side, then surely the verses I presented should not be a problem for you to explain. Take for example: 1 Peter 4:1-2. How do you read that passage and believe every word in what it says? Also, can you do the same for Galatians 5:24? See, this is the difference between you and me. I just read these verses plainly and believe them. Most in the Belief Alone Camp really do not like these verses.

Guojing · Jan 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I can say the same for you, as well. It doesn't really prove your correct that this applies to me. What you need to do is address the verses I brought forth and explain them with Scripture. For if truth is on your side, then surely the verses I presented should not be a problem for you to explain. Take for example: 1 Peter 4:1-2. How do you read that passage and believe every word in what it says?

Yes you are correct, all of us are the same.

So the point is, approach debate over Bible interpretation with a attitude of learning from others, rather than to shove your interpretation into other people's faces.

You can seek to understand other people's view, without necessarily having to agree with their views, and vice versa.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2021

Guojing said:
Yes you are correct, all of us are the same.

So the point is, approach debate over Bible interpretation with a attitude of learning from others, rather than to shove your interpretation into other people's faces.

You can seek to understand other people's view, without necessarily having to agree with their views, and vice versa.

I was asking you for your explanation on these verses and you just simply are not giving it. You keep changing the topic so as to avoid in explaining them. Why? Explain the verses otherwise you are proving that I am correct.

Guojing · Jan 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I was asking you for your explanation on these verses and you just simply are not giving it. You keep changing the topic so as to avoid in explaining them. Why? Explain the verses otherwise you are proving that I am correct.

1 Peter is Peter writing to the nation Israel.

For Israel, their sins are only forgiven when Jesus returns for them in the 2nd coming (Acts 3:19-21).

So yes, 1 Peter 4:1-2, Peter said what he meant and meant what he said to them.

If you read on in the same chapter 1 Peter 4:17-18 is the key conclusion to what he said in vs 1 and 2

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Are you satisfied now?

Bible Highlighter · Jan 8, 2021

Guojing said:
1 Peter is Peter writing to the nation Israel.

For Israel, their sins are only forgiven when Jesus returns for them in the 2nd coming (Acts 3:19-21).

So yes, 1 Peter 4:1-2, Peter said what he meant and meant what he said to them.

If you read on in the same chapter 1 Peter 4:17-18 is the key conclusion to what he said in vs 1 and 2

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Are you satisfied now?

Oh yes. That's right. You believe that the writings of Peter does not apply to Gentile believers?
This sounds like MAD. Mid Acts Dispensationalism (MAD) basically says that Paul wrote only to the Gentile believers, and Peter to only the Jews.

However, Peter says that his beloved brother Paul had also had written unto of whom Peter was writing to, as well.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15-16).

In addition, ...

What was Paul's opinion regarding the teachings or words of Jesus Christ?

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
(Colossians 2:8).

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
(1 Timothy 6:3-5).

So Jesus and Paul taught the same gospel or teaching.

In fact, Mid Acts Dispensationalism is nothing new. Back in Paul's day, people were also wrongfully following Paul, too. For Paul said that there should not be divisions between Christ and what he taught (1 Corinthians 1:10-13); For Paul said, "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Corinthians 1:13).

So I did mention Galatians 5:24, too. That was written by Paul. Care to take a shot at that one?

Guojing · Jan 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Oh yes. That's right. You believe that the writings of Peter does not apply to Gentile believers?
This sounds like MAD. Mid Acts Dispensationalism (MAD) basically says that Paul wrote only to the Gentile believers, and Peter to only the Jews.

However, Peter says that his beloved brother Paul had also had written unto of whom Peter was writing to, as well.

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15-16).

In addition, ...

What was Paul's opinion regarding the teachings or words of Jesus Christ?

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
(Colossians 2:8).

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.”
(1 Timothy 6:3-5).

So Jesus and Paul taught the same gospel or teaching.

In fact, Mid Acts Dispensationalism is nothing new. Back in Paul's day, people were also wrongfully following Paul, too. For Paul said that there should not be divisions between Christ and what he taught (1 Corinthians 1:10-13); For Paul said, "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Corinthians 1:13).

So I did mention Galatians 5:24, too. That was written by Paul. Care to take a shot at that one?

So you see, because you have a different framework when you read scripture, from others, it is not surprising at all you come to a different interpretation.

Just remember that all of us interpret Scripture, according to "some" pre-existing framework in our minds, this is called schema.

Ceallaigh · Jan 9, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
The Bible says it, but men do not like certain parts of the Bible and so they seek to change it. Men prefer to justify the idea that they can sin and still be saved on some level. Jesus said narrow is the way and FEW be there that find it. This means that the majority of the popular candy coated version of Christianity is not the narrow way. It's obvious by just reading Scripture plainly and not taking verses out of context to defend a sin and still be saved type doctrine.

So either mainstream Christianity is practicing eisegesis or you are.

eisegesis: personal interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible) using your own ideas.

Ceallaigh · Jan 9, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Wow. So unless a popular or respected theologian endorses it, you will not hear what the Word of God says? What verse or passage leads you to this conclusion?

When there's a person with a unique homemade theological view, not held by anyone with established credibility, especially one regarding salvation, that's always going to be highly questionable at best.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2021

MMXX said:
When there's a person with a unique homemade theological view, not held by anyone with established credibility, especially one regarding salvation, that's always going to be highly questionable at best.

Jesus had a problem with the popular religious leaders of his day. Jesus said beware of the scribes. Scribes are those who Tran-Scribe the Law or the Scriptures. That would be the scholar of our day. Jesus picked a simple man like fisherman to be one His followers. So the idea that we must look or trust only the respected and big time scholar is actually flawed according to Scripture.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2021

MMXX said:
So either mainstream Christianity is practicing eisegesis or you are.

eisegesis: personal interpretation of a text (especially of the Bible) using your own ideas.

Prove your case with God's Word. Show that I am taking the verses out of context and or explain the verses that appear to refute popular Christianity in regards to salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 9, 2021

Guojing said:
So you see, because you have a different framework when you read scripture, from others, it is not surprising at all you come to a different interpretation.

Just remember that all of us interpret Scripture, according to "some" pre-existing framework in our minds, this is called schema.

Again, your not really dealing with the text in what it says but your changing the topic to avoid in explaining what God's Word says. Please explain Galatians 5:24. Explain how Paul was able to write to Jews. Explain how Paul's words in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that says that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing. How do you skate around that passage?

Ceallaigh · Jan 9, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Prove your case with God's Word. Show that I am taking the verses out of context and or explain the verses that appear to refute popular Christianity in regards to salvation.

You basically just told me yourself that you hold a unique personal view of scripture that's not held by anyone else that you could name. Basically that you alone correctly interpret scripture.

Does faith justify? (I have an answer, but would like input.

Does faith justify?

Yes

No

I don't know.

Other (Please explain)

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

May God be with you and bless you.

Similar threads