A deep topic, even by Christian standards.

Truthspeaker72362 said:

Considering the bible says that the wicked will burn forever for there crimes, is it biblically true to say that if you cause infinite damage to something, you deserve to pay for that damage infinitely?

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Everything we can cause damage to however, is finite in nature.

Truthspeaker72362 said:

Considering the bible says that the wicked will burn forever for there crimes, is it biblically true to say that if you cause infinite damage to something, you deserve to pay for that damage infinitely?

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When a person damages something or someone, the real damage is to that person himself. That is infinite for infinity except for the salvation of Christ. The relationship between Christ and sinner cleanses the soul, heals the wounds and stops the damage created by the sin and the sinner. It is Redemption. Otherwise the sinner dwells in the hell of sin forever.

Truthspeaker72362 said:

Considering the bible says that the wicked will burn forever for there crimes, is it biblically true to say that if you cause infinite damage to something, you deserve to pay for that damage infinitely?

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Ah, no, the actual wording isn't quite what your paraphrase says, when done more word-for-word.

The fire/smoke is forever....but we are not really told that human souls in that place have 'eternal life' --

Have a look through the many verses:
What Does the Bible Say About Eternal Torment?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Either to "have eternal life" or to "perish"

Now, angels do seem to have eternal life, so that the fallen angels such as "the devil and his angels" may well burn there forever, but we don't have a way to see that fitting all verses for humans, who are not (not yet) already like the angels, and who would instead "perish" in that "second death". Humans there don't seem to have that eternal life. In fact the most straightforward way to read the verses that sound like they are not metaphors is to consider what they mean when read as if they mean precisely what they say (are literal, and not metaphor).

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

"destroy body and soul"

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

"second death" -- here the word "death" really just does not sound like metaphor.
(or consider many more verses if you like:
What Does the Bible Say About The Second Death?)

Now, a final permanent death is an "eternal punishment" -- it's forever, irreversible. But it is not an "infinite punishment".

So, see, the idea of infinite punishment for finite crime isn't actually what is in the scripture.

The fire may last forever, and/or its smoke, but humans there would "perish".

But the good news is that we need not die that real final "second death", but might gain Life!

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I see it as basically, if someone does not want to live by God's rules in his house. God would not want them living in his house.

Truthspeaker72362 said:

So when Hitler sent people to gas chambers, hitler didn't damage those in the gas chambers, but rather only hurt himself? What a load of garbage.

When rapists rape innocent people the rapist didnt hurt the person raped?

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Matt 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The topic is eternity, infinity
In that scheme, the people who die, are killed in the body or the innocent victim of a crime such as rape will not suffer for eternity or infinity but the one who commits murder or rape will suffer.
So the real damage by the murderer or rapist is to the perpetrator themselves...in infinity, for eternity.

This 8-minute video explains it wonderfully. Many people don't understand the seriousness of their behaviour and decisions in the context of eternity.

read to here

Truthspeaker72362 said:

If so is true then why would God sentence the wicked to eternal pain?

What you said, if true, would make it so that anything that those sentenced to hell would damage would be healed of its "wounds", effectively healed by those very same people sentenced to hell in the first place. That is, if and only if justice is enforced.

What goes around comes around according to the bible.

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It stands to reason, as high as the heaven is to the earth - so is God's thoughts compared to our thoughts. In response to your question, I get the sense there are many misunderstandings in our theologies. So we'll just have to see.

"For the wages of sin is death …" (Romans 6:23),
James 2:9. But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

I know some who have trouble with the thief on the cross. A life of sin which he himself acknowledged, yet at death he repented. When we come to Christ he does not say, sure we’re good, but I’m still holding this against you. Our sin is gone, erased. We may be held accountable on earth, but God blots out His record.

Luke, 23:41. We are punished justly, for we are receiving what our actions deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” And Jesus said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”…

Colossians, He has blotted out the note of debt against us with the decrees of our sins, which was contrary to us; and He has taken it away, having nailed it to the cross. And he has blotted out by his authority the bill of our debts which was adverse to us and he took it from the midst and nailed it to his cross.

Isaiiah 23:45 I, yes I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake and remembers your sins no more.

Psalm, 51:2
Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your steadfast love;
according to your abundant mercy
blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin!

Psalm, 51:9
Hide your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
Cast me not away from your presence,
and take not your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation,
and uphold me with a willing spirit.

In Christ

Truthspeaker72362 said:

Considering the bible says that the wicked will burn forever for there crimes, is it biblically true to say that if you cause infinite damage to something, you deserve to pay for that damage infinitely?

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Some interpet some passages claiming this ... it is not so .... nobody is burning in "hell" now and nobody will "burn forever". They will ... in the very end be destroyed.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Truthspeaker72362 said:

eternal means forever. Eternal destruction must mean endless destruction. That means they'll keep getting destroyed and then revived and destroyed. So it actually is saying that they'll be tortured forever.

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not... this is the Greek

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

it does not say .... being tortured .... nor revived and destroyed over and over again.

destroyed FOR eternity ..... cease to exist for eternity

The saved receive eternal life ..... the lost eternal death .... not eternal torture.

read to here

Truthspeaker72362 said:

Considering the bible says that the wicked will burn forever for there crimes, is it biblically true to say that if you cause infinite damage to something, you deserve to pay for that damage infinitely?

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Christians have committed every atrocity that non-Christians have, as it says:


1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Ultimately, we burn because we love "what we want to believe" "as" truth, and hate truth. Regardless of the beliefs, or the belief group, every person and group KNOWS their core beliefs are unquestionably true... But that's different than loving truth. To clarify let me add the following:





“I said, "If you think about it, that’s pretty much that’s the normal way things progress when two people from different belief groups share their beliefs. What do we share?

1.) We share the proof we have that verifies our views are the correct ones. What else do we share?

2.) We share all the evidence we have that shows the other person’s views are off.

3.) How do we interpret everything? Well, in the light of what we know is truth, of course. What is truth? Our beliefs. All correct interpretations of all “valid” data must support, or at least not negate, our infallible beliefs.

4.) What do we keep jumping back to when our beliefs are questioned? Everything I just listed.

No matter what our belief group, or beliefs, we all share the data we know “verifies our beliefs” and proves all “opposing beliefs” false.

And the interpretations, of the data we have selected, are always in line with what each person knows is truth, and of course, no matter what our beliefs, no matter who we are, our core beliefs “are” “truth”.

Ergo … All correct interpretations of valid data must align with our beliefs. But there is more.

5. Anything that doesn’t seem to fit with our views, we reinterpret, ignore, discredit, invalidate …

6. Then we usually have a few outside reasons for why we are in the belief groups we are in. Things like, we got a burning in the bosom, we speak in tongues, signs, wonders, we prayed to God for the truth on an issue and got “feelings” or some other characteristics of our belief group that prove “ours” is the correct one. This also includes things like: our group is the oldest, largest, fastest growing, wealthiest, … our group has the most experts with doctorates …”

I call #1-6 above “Methodology One”: The Methodology of Belief Groups)

Any unquestionably true beliefs indicate the use of Methodology One above. The non-religious lost: Rom. 1:18-32. The religious but non-Christian: Rom. 10:1-3, Those that believe themselves to be Christians but aren’t: Mat. 7. Look at their responses to those who don’t agree with their beliefs in Mat. 7:6 Why? Look at what they have gathered using the Methodology above. And no one using it can get to truth, EVER. God didn’t design it for that.

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.”

If you use the exact same Methodology you get the exact same result: An unquestionable assurance that your beliefs are Fact. If you want truth, you have to do the opposite of that Methodology: The next one.


2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

“That which we love least is always forced to conform to that which we love most. You can love your belief or truth. Pick one.”

If your belief are “unquestionable truths”. We both know what you love and which methodology you will use. It’s on the previous sheet. But if your Methodology can’t get you “to” the truth does it matter how vehemently you hold to your beliefs.


1.) We must avoid “Methodology One” (Previous page): That Methodology only hardens, those that use it, into believing whatever lies they “want to believe” “as” truth. That Methodology is “Proving your beliefs true and holding fast to them.” On this sheet you have the “opposite” Methodology, i.e. what is required if we want to alter all our beliefs to fit truth.

2.) We must remain open minded to altering any or all of our beliefs in the light of the fullness of the truth, when everything that “Might” pertain to the topic at hand, is rightly divided. Unquestionable/Infallible beliefs you will never even consider altering in a million years, prove a love of beliefs, not truth, and thus we have closed our eyes and ears lest we see and hear. If that is the case, we love our beliefs, not truth. (See 2Th. 2:10-15. Everyone gets what they want.)

3.) We, personally, must get absolutely everything anyone thinks might pertain to the topic at hand. Then we must gather all the data that “might pertain” that no group gathered. No belief group gathers what they can’t use to prove their beliefs true or opposing beliefs false. (Do this first and put all passages in bible order. Why? Everyone wants to interpret their “selected” data in the light of their beliefs and in the light of the rest of their “selected” passages.)

4.) Pick a meaning that fully aligns with the historical, legal, architectural, agricultural … context. (Example: In a discussion on “cutting away”, pertaining to grape vines, first understand the first century practices for maintaining vineyards.)

5.) Hold to a meaning for all words, root words, figures of speech parables … consistent throughout the Old and New Testament. We have a Greek Old and New Testament and a Hebrew Old Testament. Pick a meaning that fully fits everywhere the same word, root word, figure of speech is used. (Example: If phobos means fear, terror, shaking in your boots we are all going to die terror in 553 places where the word/root word is used, do not pick the meaning of respect or honor in the 2 places where you do not like the teaching.)

6.) Hold to a meaning consistent with the “entire discussion” surrounding the verse or passage being considered, holding to the flow of thought, flow of arguments, meaning of points made … (Find the beginning and the end of the discussion each passage in question is a part of. Your interpretation must make perfect sense in the light of that entire context.)

7.) Hold only to meanings consistent with conscience. (Example: If your interpretation would be a sin if a man did likewise, and your interpretation results in believing God does it, your interpretation is wrong. i.e. there are no illustrations in the bible where God says He commits adultery. If your “meaning” for the word would make God a violator of His own will or worse, committing adultery, you picked the wrong meaning.)

8.) Pick an interpretation for all the data that makes God, God’s people and God’s word 100% consistent in “all” they say and do and “all” they don’t say and don’t do. “Any inconsistencies are proof of false beliefs/definitions.” (Example: God says He reproves all He loves, and that if there is no reproof you are not His. Ergo, if you believe someone is sinning and God does not reprove them for it either God does not love them or your belief that it is a sin is wrong.)

9.) Pick an interpretation that fully fits with all logic, reason, and rational thinking. (i.e., If the writer spent a whole chapter saying there are no gifts greater than any other, choosing an interpretation for a verse right after that discussion that means “earnestly desire the greater gifts”, contradicts. Look for the “other” possible meaning.)

10.) Interpret the Clearest, Easiest Understood, Most Straightforward … Passages First, Interpreting the Complex, Convoluted, Difficult Passages in their Light. (Difficult passages are easy to distort to fit beliefs.)

11.) Pick a meaning for the parts that fully fits with the whole of the data that might pertain without adding meaning that isn’t there, subtracting meaning that is, or distorting anything to force it to comply with your beliefs. If everything that pertains (#3 above) does not fully fit with everything else (#4) you have the wrong meaning. Hold to a consistency of meaning when we put all of the parts, rightly divided, together. (If 5% of your interpretations don’t fit the other 95% you are either distorting the 5% to hold to your beliefs, or forcing the 95% to fit your views even though they clearly contradict the meaning in the 5%. If you are not open to altering your beliefs to fit truth, you will continue to alter truth to fit your beliefs.)

12.) Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and never stop and hold fast to what is good/true. This process never ends for truth lovers. Why? Just one verse, or one slight change in interpretation can force a complete reevaluation … and a change of beliefs … if you love truth… If not …

Use these pages as a check list to find out which side of the following verses you fall on for each bible topic. Are your eyes and ears closed to considering a different belief might be the truth? Or are all beliefs open to changing in the light of the fullness of the truth rightly divided? Do you use

2Th 2:10-12 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason, God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Everyone gets what they want… from God. You can love your beliefs or truth. Pick one. The “Methodology” you use, and hold fast to, proves, beyond any doubt, what you love.