Abomination of Desolation in Luke?

grafted branch said:

I’ve thought about what you said and I changed my rating to winner along with the others; and I’m going to add your post to my original notes on this.

As you know I see Abomination of Desolation + Days being shortened = Jerusalem surrounded by armies. So for me Luke gives “the exact truth” concerning this because neither Abomination of Desolation nor Days being shortened are mentioned in Luke and Jerusalem surrounded by armies isn’t mentioned in Matthew or Mark.

I’m not sure what your view is on this but if you see Abomination of Desolation = Jerusalem surrounded by armies, could you share your opinion on how Luke clarifies or gives “the exact truth” on the days being shortened?

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My 2c:



Matthew 24:
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


The apostles here are clearly asking about more than one event.The destruction of the temple,the signs which would indicate that He is coming and also the end of the world(age).

His answers seem to include responses to these concerns but were so done,especially in Matthew's account,that it has caused confusion among many.Many confuse the description of events which concern the destruction of the temple with end time events and the reverse is also true.Others even claim that the passage has nothing to do with the return of the Lord but was all fulfilled in the 70 A.D. destruction of the temple.By comparing Matthew's account,with the account given by Luke however,it is possible to gain a fairly good understanding of the Lord's words.


Jesus answered by saying:

Matthew 24:
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

It appears Jesus started by answering the last part of the question first.Luke in his account does not give as complex a question from the disciples as did Matthew.In Luke's account they ask:

Luke 21:
5And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

This is similar to the account given by Mark.Does this mean the additional parts of the question in Matthew may not be authentic?Not necessarily.In multiple accounts of any event it is the norm that some accounts will have information not supplied by others and by combining all the accounts we are able to get a more detailed and accurate report of of the event.The answers given also will show whether or not the additional parts of the question in Matthew have been answered in the various accounts.This will show that rather than being spurious the account given by Matthew is more complete as it shows the additional parts of the disciples question,which explains the answers given.

What is the response according to Luke?

Luke 21:
8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

Luke's account also appears not to be answering the question about the temple but instead went on the speak about what was to be happening close to the end.

Luke's account continued by saying:

Luke 21:
10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Matthew's account:

Matthew 24:
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

At this point both accounts are in harmony and have nothing to say about the destruction of the temple.At this point an important difference in the two accounts occur and in order to understand the chronology of Jesus' answer in Matthew 24,we must turn to Luke or confusion and a grave misunderstanding will occur.


Luke introduces a statement which allows us to see Jesus answering the question about the destruction of the temple and giving the sequence in which this will occur.Matthew does not show this sequence but his account gives the appearance of a continuing of events previously described.Luke shows clearly that Jesus reverts from a description of things occuring near the end and describes what will happen before these things.Luke says:

Luke 21:
12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19In your patience possess ye your souls.


Luke's account explains that before the events described previously other things will happen.This is a description of persecution which the disciples would have encountered after Jesus' ascension.Matthew however says it this way:

Matthew 24:
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Which is actually a combined description of what will happen to the disciples both before the events of the time of end(vs.9-10)and also of the events leading up to the end.(vs.11-14)

Compare:

Matthew
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.[Happens before the end and at the end]
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.[Description of the end]

Luke
8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.


Included in the events which occur before the end time events is the destruction of Jerusalem.Matthew describes it in this way and those who claim that the end is the destruction of Jerusalem will use this to support their view since it is the next thing described after the statement,"and then shall the end come".Matthew continues:

Matthew 24:
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Luke's account continuing to describe the events before the events of the time of the end(but before all of these)says:

Luke 21:
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

N.B. Luke calls the "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel"," when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh".

At this point Luke goes on to describe the events after the destruction of Jerusalem and which lead up to the coming of the Lord.Matthew also goes on to describe these events.

Luke 21:
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Luke's account simply describes the events leading up to the coming of the Lord and which will usher in the kingdom of God ie. the end.


Matthew 24:
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Matthew describes events after the destruction of Jerusalem(the tribulation of those day) and also events leading up to the coming of the Lord.Here at the end both accounts are more or less in harmony again.

jeffweedaman said:

Im not surprised that you do not know who he is...lol.

Seriously , what are you asking?

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Well all say he is the first to write about Jesus and the others just added their account into his. You sounded like you had confidence in the writer who was not even a disciple, Luke, but Luke seemed to be the last to clear many events up, including the acts of the disciples. No one seems to want to pin Mark on any one in particular.

Timtofly said:

It was not 3 days between Daniel and Christ, but sure, the shortest length in the number still occurs between Daniel and Christ, no matter how you split it up. What is .5? Is it still not half a time?

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.5 is the same thing as saying 1/2. 3 and 1/2 and 3.5 mean the same thing.

The math is---1(time) + 2(times--time multiplied by 2) + 1/2(time divided by 2) = 3.5

360(time) + 720(times--time multiplied by 2) + 180(time divided by 2) = 1260.

BTW, the entire 70 weeks involve this math and not just the last week.

Timtofly said:

Well all say he is the first to write about Jesus and the others just added their account into his. You sounded like you had confidence in the writer who was not even a disciple, Luke, but Luke seemed to be the last to clear many events up, including the acts of the disciples. No one seems to want to pin Mark on any one in particular.

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What in the world are you talking about? You cannot expect to be taken seriously when you say such ridiculous things like this.

grafted branch said:

Thanks for that detailed explanation, however a preterits would point out that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven (Colossians 1:23) prior to the destruction of Jerusalem; so they wouldn’t place Matthew 24:14 after 70 A.D.

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But the end of the age has not yet come and it's quite reasonable to assume that "the end" Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:14 was the end of the age that the disciples asked about.

So, while scripture does indicate that the gospel was preached to the whole world that existed before 70 AD, Jesus apparently was referring to the time when the gospel will have been preached to everyone who has ever lived without needing to be preached to anyone else ever again and at that point the time for Him to come at the end of the age will have arrived.

Spiritual Jew said:

What in the world are you talking about? You cannot expect to be taken seriously when you say such ridiculous things like this.

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Why are you on my case? That seems to be the consensus in higher criticism, in regards to who wrote the Gospels.

Timtofly said:

Why are you on my case? That seems to be the consensus in higher criticism, in regards to who wrote the Gospels.

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What do you mean? Are you incapable of being specific and showing evidence to back up what you say?

Timtofly said:

Well all say he is the first to write about Jesus and the others just added their account into his.

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Not all say that.

Regardless all relied on the 4 who heard from the Lord privately.

grafted branch said:

Thanks for that detailed explanation, however a preterits would point out that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven (Colossians 1:23) prior to the destruction of Jerusalem; so they wouldn’t place Matthew 24:14 after 70 A.D.

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Colossians 1:23 was a way saying preached wide and far. It is like saying in a converstation... did you have to tell the whole world our secret? "whole world" in that sentence does not mean to every person in the world, but a indication that one of the party let the secret out.

Obviously, the gospel had not preached to them living in the western hemisphere at that time, for example..

grafted branch said:

So are you saying that in some verses preaching to the whole world is literal and other verses it’s not? Would you say that Colossians 1:23 is the only place it’s meant non-literally or are there other verses too?

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Why don't you just say what's on you mind rather than try to do a "gotcha" ?

Spiritual Jew said:

What do you mean? Are you incapable of being specific and showing evidence to back up what you say?

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That would be either accepting higher criticism and quoting scholars, which, no I am not inclined to do. I asked a question, of which another poster now wants me to answer a question. I asked first and received a "cheap" reply, I guess to avoid an answer. I never made a claim about Mark. My reply was to a "cheap" reply, of what others claim. If no one wants to point out who Mark is, then so be it.

Spiritual Jew said:

Agree.

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Ok good, so you agree that the first resurrection is related to ephesians ch 2.

Ephesians 2:6 God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

Now, even though Paul mentions those in Christ as being seated in heaven as past tense, do you believe that those in Christ were literally sitting in heaven at that exact point, or was Paul speaking to a future reality, like it was a present reality, as a result of what Christ did?

Spiritual Jew said:

But that is talking about 1,000 years prior to Christ reigning. The thousand years of Revelation 20 refers to the beginning of His reign. I just can't make any sense at all out of what you're saying here.

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Spiritual Jew said:

You're saying you think the thousand years was already fulfilled with ongoing results? That makes no sense to me whatsoever. Is that the typical preterist understanding of the thousand years?

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Spiritual Jew said:

That couldn't be further from the truth, so your statement here shows that you're not paying close attention to what I'm saying. I interpret Revelation 20 based on my understanding of other New Testament scripture and I have said so many times. That is the problem with premils. They interpret the rest of scripture in light of Revelation 20. I've already explained to you more than once my understanding of what he was bound from doing and I used other New Testament scripture to back up my view.

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Let me try this approach:

Without reading revelation ch 20 with a premil, postmil, or amil lens, what does it say the first resurrection is? It clearly states the first resurrection = those living and reigning with Christ for 1,000 years. Revelation does not state the first resurrection is in regards to only those living again, but encompasses the 1,000 years of living and reigning. Revelation ch. 20 does not separate the 1,000 years from the 1st resurrection.

Revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. THIS is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who partakes in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The premil believes the first resurrection occurs at the beginning of the 1,000 years through those sitting on thrones, those beheaded, and those who didn't worship the beast, living again. The 1,000 years then equaling them reigning with Christ on earth.

The amil believes the first resurrection occurs at the beginning of the 1,000 years through Jesus' resurrection. The 1,000 years then equaling the period of time between the 1st and 2nd advent where those who come to christ are born again.

Both the amil and the premil agree the first resurrection occurs at the beginning of the 1,000 years, despite revelation stating that the first resurrection = those living and reigning with Christ for 1,000 years.

I, as you do, believe the first resurrection is Christ. BUT, I disagree that the 1,000 years is symbolic for the time FOLLOWING the resurrection of Christ, as revelation ch 20. states the first resurrection = living AND reigning with Christ FOR 1,000 years. Therefore, I believe the symbolic 1,000 years is throughout/part of/within Christ's resurrection and not the period of time following Christ's resurrection. I believe the 1,000 years symbolically points to the promise made to David, literally 1,000 years prior to Christ, which is fulfilled in Christ's resurrection.

Spiritual Jew said:

You clearly said he was loosed to deceive and persecute. That strongly implied to me that you believe he was bound from deceiving and persecuting before being loosed. So, that's why it didn't occur to me to ask a clarifying question.

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Right, I said loosed "TO" to deceive and persecute. The polar opposite would be to be loosed "FROM" deceiving and persecuting. So I'm having a hard time understanding how you came to polar opposite conclusion of what I said.

Spiritual Jew said:

Does it have to be specifically mentioned for that to be the case? You've accused me of believing things like premils before, but that's how you come across to me sometimes. They often will say 2 passages can't be related just because they don't have all the same details or don't spell everything out in each passage.

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It seems you believe the taking away of the restrainer to reveal the man of sin = satan's release from the chain/abyss.

So let me ask some clarifying questions.

1.) What do you believe the chain/abyss is?
2.) what do you believe the restrainer is?
3.) You believe the restrainer = the chain/abyss?
4.) was satan deceiving prior to the revealing of the man of sin?

Spiritual Jew said:

I disagree completely. Paul said the falling away would occur before the second coming and our being gathered to Him which is the same event he mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 where he said that when He comes the dead in Christ will all be raised and we will all be caught up to meet Him in the air. That has clearly not yet happened.

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Correct, paul said the falling away would occur prior to the parousia of Christ. So did Jesus:

Matthew 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

In fact, John stated it was occurring during the 1st century, and that is how they knew it was the last hour

1 john 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

claninja said:

Ok good, so you agree that the first resurrection is related to ephesians ch 2.

Ephesians 2:6 God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

Now, even though Paul mentions those in Christ as being seated in heaven as past tense, do you believe that those in Christ were literally sitting in heaven at that exact point, or was Paul speaking to a future reality, like it was a present reality, as a result of what Christ did?

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Neither. He was figuratively speaking of the present reality in a spiritual sense. When we become saved we, as believers, are figuratively raised up to be seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Let me try this approach:

Without reading revelation ch 20 with a premil, postmil, or amil lens, what does it say the first resurrection is? It clearly states the first resurrection = those living and reigning with Christ for 1,000 years. Revelation does not state the first resurrection is in regards to only those living again, but encompasses the 1,000 years of living and reigning. Revelation ch. 20 does not separate the 1,000 years from the 1st resurrection.

Revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. THIS is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who partakes in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The premil believes the first resurrection occurs at the beginning of the 1,000 years through those sitting on thrones, those beheaded, and those who didn't worship the beast, living again. The 1,000 years then equaling them reigning with Christ on earth.

The amil believes the first resurrection occurs at the beginning of the 1,000 years through Jesus' resurrection. The 1,000 years then equaling the period of time between the 1st and 2nd advent where those who come to christ are born again.

Both the amil and the premil agree the first resurrection occurs at the beginning of the 1,000 years, despite revelation stating that the first resurrection = those living and reigning with Christ for 1,000 years.

I, as you do, believe the first resurrection is Christ. BUT, I disagree that the 1,000 years is symbolic for the time FOLLOWING the resurrection of Christ, as revelation ch 20. states the first resurrection = living AND reigning with Christ FOR 1,000 years. Therefore, I believe the symbolic 1,000 years is throughout/part of/within Christ's resurrection and not the period of time following Christ's resurrection. I believe the 1,000 years symbolically points to the promise made to David, literally 1,000 years prior to Christ, which is fulfilled in Christ's resurrection.

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I'm sorry, but I just cannot make any sense out of that. You make it out that the thousand years doesn't have an actual beginning and ending, but Revelation 20 indicate that it does. At the beginning of it, Christ reigns with the souls John saw in heaven and the dragon, Satan, is bound. At the end of it, Satan is loosed. If you interpret the 1,000 years only symbolically with no beginning and ending then why does it say that at the end of the thousand years the dragon, Satan, will be loosed?

Right, I said loosed "TO" to deceive and persecute. The polar opposite would be to be loosed "FROM" deceiving and persecuting. So I'm having a hard time understanding how you came to polar opposite conclusion of what I said.

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Because if you're loosed to do something doesn't that mean you weren't able to do it before? For example, if a prisoner is loosed from prison then he is loosed to do things he wasn't able to do in prison, right?

It seems you believe the taking away of the restrainer to reveal the man of sin = satan's release from the chain/abyss.

So let me ask some clarifying questions.

1.) What do you believe the chain/abyss is?

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Symbolic restraint of Satan's activities that he was formerly able to do before Christ's death and resurrection which was to keep the Gentile world almost entirely in spiritual darkness.

2.) what do you believe the restrainer is?

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The Holy Spirit. Particularly His restraining influence on the world.

3.) You believe the restrainer = the chain/abyss?

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No. The description of his binding in Revelation 20 is all symbolic. What John saw was a dragon bound with a chain in the abyss. None of that is literal.

4.) was satan deceiving prior to the revealing of the man of sin?

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See, this is where your understanding of his binding is similar to how premil understands it. You seem to think that his binding has to do with binding him from doing any deceiving at all. That's not how I understand it.

I understand his binding to be a restraint from keeping the gospel from going out into the world. I assume you are familiar with Ephesians 1:11-22 where Paul talks about in the times before Christ came the Gentiles were "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world", but Christ's death and resurrection changed all that. His death and resurrection brought the hope of eternal life to the Gentile world which they never really had before for the most part.

Correct, paul said the falling away would occur prior to the parousia of Christ. So did Jesus:

Matthew 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another.

In fact, John stated it was occurring during the 1st century, and that is how they knew it was the last hour

1 john 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

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But, Paul wrote this:

2 Thess 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

So, while there were already many antichrists in the world back then there was still a restraining influence in the world that kept wickedness from being completely out of control while allowing the gospel to be preached.

As for John saying that it was the last hour in his day, I believe he was referring to the time between Christ's first coming and second coming, but he didn't know when the second coming would occur. I'm sure Christians have felt like it would happen in their day during that time and have felt that way ever since. But Jesus said no one knew the day or hour (Matt 24:36), so I believe it is still the last hour today. To me, Paul indicated that there would be a time of significantly increased wickedness and a mass falling away in the world before Christ's second coming and I equate that with Satan's little season.

Spiritual Jew said:

Neither. He was figuratively speaking of the present reality in a spiritual sense. When we become saved we, as believers, are figuratively raised up to be seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

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While I agree that it can refer to a present spiritual reality by being one with Christ, Do you believe there is any future aspect to being raised up to be seated with Christ in the heavenlies? or is it only ever figuratively?

Revelation 3:21 To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Spiritual Jew said:

I'm sorry, but I just cannot make any sense out of that. You make it out that the thousand years doesn't have an actual beginning and ending, but Revelation 20 indicate that it does. At the beginning of it, Christ reigns with the souls John saw in heaven and the dragon, Satan, is bound. At the end of it, Satan is loosed. If you interpret the 1,000 years only symbolically with no beginning and ending then why does it say that at the end of the thousand years the dragon, Satan, will be loosed?

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According to the Parable in revelation 20:

1.) The beginning of the 1,000 years begins with satan being bound.
Revelation 20:1-2 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

2.) The 1,000 years ends with satan being loosed to deceive and make war against the saints
revelation 20:7-8 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison. nd will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

3.) the saints living and reigning with Christ for these 1,000 years = first resurrection
Revelation 20:4-5 And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

So how do we reconcile this through the lens of the gospels and epistles?

1.) The gospels and epistles declare satan bound at Christ's first advent.
Matthew 12:29 Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first bind the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

Hebrews 2:14-15 Now since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

2.) The gospels, epistles, and revelation declare satan "loosed" or "cast out" in order to persecute, deceive, and hinder following Christ's ascension.

John 12:31-33 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. 32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” 33He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.

Revelation 12:12,17 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.” And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Ephesians 1:1-2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience

2 corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light

1 thessalonians 2:14-18 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,f 15who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind 16by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last!g
17But since we were torn away from you, brothers, for a short time, in person not in heart, we endeavored the more eagerly and with great desire to see you face to face, 18because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us

1 timothy 5:15 For some have already turned aside to follow Satan.

3.) the gospels, epistles, and revelation declare Christ is the first resurrection
Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.

revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies

acts 26:23 that the Christ would suffer, and as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to our people and to the Gentiles.”

Therefore, that is the basis for how I understand the parable of revelation 20.

Spiritual Jew said:

Because if you're loosed to do something doesn't that mean you weren't able to do it before? For example, if a prisoner is loosed from prison then he is loosed to do things he wasn't able to do in prison, right?

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Right, so where did I mention satan's activities prior to the cross?

Spiritual Jew said:

Symbolic restraint of Satan's activities that he was formerly able to do before Christ's death and resurrection which was to keep the Gentile world almost entirely in spiritual darkness.

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Ok

Spiritual Jew said:

The Holy Spirit. Particularly His restraining influence on the world.

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Just one possibility. But if it actually was the Holy Spirit, it seems that Paul would have just put "Holy Spirit".

Spiritual Jew said:

No. The description of his binding in Revelation 20 is all symbolic. What John saw was a dragon bound with a chain in the abyss. None of that is literal.

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ok, so you believe the restrainer being taken out of the way in order that the man of sin is revealed, is a different event than satan being loosed, correct?

Spiritual Jew said:

See, this is where your understanding of his binding is similar to how premil understands it. You seem to think that his binding has to do with binding him from doing any deceiving at all. That's not how I understand it.

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Well, revelation 20:3 does say satan is in the abyss in order that he could not deceive the nations.

revelation 20:3 And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

Spiritual Jew said:

I understand his binding to be a restraint from keeping the gospel from going out into the world. I assume you are familiar with Ephesians 1:11-22 where Paul talks about in the times before Christ came the Gentiles were "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world", but Christ's death and resurrection changed all that. His death and resurrection brought the hope of eternal life to the Gentile world which they never really had before for the most part.

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Agreed.

Spiritual Jew said:

As for John saying that it was the last hour in his day, I believe he was referring to the time between Christ's first coming and second coming, but he didn't know when the second coming would occur. I'm sure Christians have felt like it would happen in their day during that time and have felt that way ever since. But Jesus said no one knew the day or hour (Matt 24:36), so I believe it is still the last hour today. To me, Paul indicated that there would be a time of significantly increased wickedness and a mass falling away in the world before Christ's second coming and I equate that with Satan's little season.

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John knew that the parousia of Christ was to occur following the "falling away" and following the destruction of the temple.

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The falling away testifies that he knew it was the last hour.

To turn the last hour into 2,000 years is quite a stretch (pun intended).

claninja said:

While I agree that it can refer to a present spiritual reality by being one with Christ, Do you believe there is any future aspect to being raised up to be seated with Christ in the heavenlies? or is it only ever figuratively?

Revelation 3:21 To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

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I believe that when a believe dies their soul and spirit go to be with the Lord in heaven and reign with Him there while awaiting the redemption of their bodies which will occur at the last trumpet when Christ returns (1 Cor 15:51-54).

According to the Parable in revelation 20:

1.) The beginning of the 1,000 years begins with satan being bound.
Revelation 20:1-2 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

2.) The 1,000 years ends with satan being loosed to deceive and make war against the saints
revelation 20:7-8 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison. nd will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

3.) the saints living and reigning with Christ for these 1,000 years = first resurrection
Revelation 20:4-5 And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.

So how do we reconcile this through the lens of the gospels and epistles?

1.) The gospels and epistles declare satan bound at Christ's first advent.
Matthew 12:29 Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions, unless he first bind the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.

Hebrews 2:14-15 Now since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

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Agree with everything so far.

2.) The gospels, epistles, and revelation declare satan "loosed" or "cast out" in order to persecute, deceive, and hinder following Christ's ascension.

John 12:31-33 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. 32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” 33He said this to indicate the kind of death He was going to die.

John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.

Revelation 12:12,17 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.” And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Ephesians 1:1-2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience

2 corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light

1 thessalonians 2:14-18 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,f 15who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind 16by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them at last!g
17But since we were torn away from you, brothers, for a short time, in person not in heart, we endeavored the more eagerly and with great desire to see you face to face, 18because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, again and again—but Satan hindered us

1 timothy 5:15 For some have already turned aside to follow Satan.

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I disagree that those passages refer to the loosing of Satan. By seeing it this way you are turning the "thousand years" into a very short amount of time because you have it ending already when Christ ascended. It's one thing to view the thousand years figuratively, but this is going too far.

If the thousand years ended when Christ ascended then how do you make sense of this verse:

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

3.) the gospels, epistles, and revelation declare Christ is the first resurrection
Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.

revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies

acts 26:23 that the Christ would suffer, and as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to our people and to the Gentiles.”

Therefore, that is the basis for how I understand the parable of revelation 20.

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That is the basis for how I understand the first resurrection as well, and yet we still come to different conclusions. It seems that the main difference is that I view the thousand years as having a starting point at around the time of Christ's death, resurrection and ascension and an ending point at a time in which Satan is loosed for a "little season" before Christ's return during which is unrestrained after previously being restrained (not incapacitated as premils believe, but restrained). Your understanding of the thousand years is something I can't even explain but it's different than my understanding of it.

Also, I see Satan's binding as a case of him being restrained from stopping the spread of the gospel while your understanding of his binding is honesty not clear to me, but something different.

Right, so where did I mention satan's activities prior to the cross?

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I don't recall if you did, but my understanding of his binding has to do with what he was able to do before the cross and what he was able to do after the cross, which was a major difference. Before the cross, the Gentiles were "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world" (Eph 2:12), but that all changed afterwards.

Just one possibility. But if it actually was the Holy Spirit, it seems that Paul would have just put "Holy Spirit".

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It seems clear to me that Paul wasn't interested in spelling everything out in 2 Thessalonians 2, overall. It's far from a clear, straightforward passage.

ok, so you believe the restrainer being taken out of the way in order that the man of sin is revealed, is a different event than satan being loosed, correct?

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No, I think they go hand in hand. When the Holy Spirit's influence is taken away and the mass falling away from the faith occurs that Paul mentioned, that will all be because Satan is loosed and no longer restrained at that point.

Well, revelation 20:3 does say satan is in the abyss in order that he could not deceive the nations.

revelation 20:3 And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

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Yes, but what does that mean? You have criticized me before for viewing things like premils, but aren't you doing the same here? Premils assume that his being bound from deceiving the nations has to do with him being completely incapacitated and unable to deceive or do anything at all. I don't see it that way. I view it as him being bound from keeping the Gentiles in spiritual darkness the way he was able to do before Christ came and before the gospel went out into the world through the power of the Holy Spirit.

John knew that the parousia of Christ was to occur following the "falling away" and following the destruction of the temple.

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, 11and many false prophets will arise and mislead many.

matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

The falling away testifies that he knew it was the last hour.

To turn the last hour into 2,000 years is quite a stretch (pun intended).

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Jesus said no one knows the day or hour of His coming except for the Father. So, to think that John knew exactly when Christ would come would contradict that. All believers from that time on have believed that He could come during their lifetimes. I just completely disagree with your understanding of Matthew 24:29-31. I believe you are missing that Jesus was asked both about the timing of the destruction of the temple AND the timing of His coming and the end of the age. I believe you are not missing that those are 2 separate events. There was no gathering of the elect in 70 AD. And heaven and earth did not pass away at that time, either (Matt 24:35).

The gathering of the elect to meet Christ when He comes is still future (1 Thess 4:14-17) as is heaven and earth passing away (2 Peter 3:3-13).

The scholarly consensus is that the Abomination of Desolation refers to the incident where Emperor Caligula had an idol depicting him as Jupiter installed in the courtyard of the Second Temple.