Does faith justify? (I have an answer, but would like input.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 7, 2021

klutedavid said:
I need you to confess.

1 John 2:8-9
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It’s 1 John 1:8-9, and not 1 John 2:8-9.

Anyways, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

Bible Highlighter · Jan 7, 2021

klutedavid said:
Walking in the light is obeying a key commandment; do you know which one it is?

Walking in the light in 1 John 1:7 is told to us by indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11. It is to love our brother. If we hate our brother no eternal life abides in us according to 1 John 3:15. The person who loves not his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10). This is why when we love our brother (i.e. walk in the light), the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

boughtwithaprice · Jan 7, 2021

Neogaia777 said:
I am not in any way at all saying we should sin or that is perfectly OK to sin or be sinning in any way, shape, or form at all, etc, "at all", etc, but would just also like to point out that, the writer of that (Paul), also talked about "two wills" in us also, etc, and that it is possible for one of those wills to not at all be wanting to sin, but that the other one does, or can, or will, etc, and it puts a whole new "spin" on the definition of sinning entirely willfully or intentionally or not, etc...

And/or/but the real way to stop sinning altogether, is (it would seem) is for the one will that wills not to sin at all, to be made very much more stronger than the other will that does want to sin, and does sin often, etc...

And/or also and because, etc, cause this is also the tricky part also, etc, is that it cannot be self-will at all, etc, but has to be entirely God or God's will in you, etc, and all too many of us always resort to self-will in order to make the will that does not want to sin, overcome, or be stronger or better, etc, but the deception is that it is actually that self-will that is actually the will that is actually sinful, and actually wants to sin in actuality, etc, willfully, etc, which is why it is always so very "hard" when it/that (overcoming sin) is trying to be done by us that way (the way I just described, etc), the yoke seems very heavy and not light, etc, and it is heavy because that is not ever the truly right or truly successful way to ever do it ever, etc...

I mean, just think about it, your trying to make the will that does not want to sin stronger, only by only feeding the will that does want to sin actually stronger, etc, and just how do you think we're ever going to win or ever truly succeed that way, etc...?

But, yes, we are not supposed to be out to be sinning purposely or purposefully or quote/unquote "willfully" and intentionally, etc, however you want to define those things or see those terms, etc...

Most of us are just not going about it in the right kind of way at all though, and are only actually only going about it in a way that can never ever truly ever succeed, etc, and actually just makes things much much worse only, etc...

And, I'm still working on how to be truly successful and truly succeed, and succeed all the way and 100% totally and completely I mean, etc, but I see clear enough now I think to have seen or know this much thus far I think, etc...

I'll let you know how it is, or where it goes from here, etc, OK...

God Bless!

thank you for your kind reply. I appreciate your response.
I agree that it is not self will that enables us to be righteous. That would be the Pelegian heresy. It is by the grace of God that we are made righteous, and not of ourselves
We are unable to make ourselves righteous, but God did give us free will. He want us to cooperate with grace. Did he not say, behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man open the door I will come in and he will eat with Me and I with him?
We only need to say yes, as mother Mary did, behold the handmaiden of the Lord, let it be done to me as you say
If you say yes, then God will perfect that work in you as He promised. God wants willing servants. He does not force Himself
Are we going to fail? Yes many times, but we do not give up. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That’s why Catholics go to confession
The problem with imputed righteousness is that it is a self defeated trick of the mind. To analyze the thought process “I am incapable of being righteous so I am going to give up, keep sinning maybe even worse, but it’s ok because I believe in Jesus”. There is something wrong with that
It’s not believing in Jesus that saves us, even the demons do that, rather believing Jesus
He said be baptized, yes Lord. He said eat my flesh and drink my blood, yes Lord. He said confess your sins and repent, yes Lord
He said I desire obedience rather than sacrifice, yes Lord. He promised to complete the work in you. Do you believe Him?
We need to ask for grace in this life, and we will receive it. Imputed righteousness, implies that we will stay in our sins in this life, but ask for grace in the next
This is nowhere in the Bible. If we wait till eternity it will be too late. Jesus says repent
Are we as the foolish maidens with no oil for our lamps or as the foolish man to whom was said “friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?”
We cannot make ourselves righteous, but we can say yes to God. If today you hear His voice harden not your heart. Open the door

God bless

klutedavid · Jan 7, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Walking in the light in 1 John 1:7 is told to us by indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11. It is to love our brother. If we hate our brother no eternal life abides in us according to 1 John 3:15. The person who loves not his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10). This is why when we love our brother (i.e. walk in the light), the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.

That's the two commandments.

Believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus and love others as Christ loved us (unconditional love).

God is love and that is what the entire law ultimately proclaims, love from a pure heart.

The one that loves others without conditions attached, reflects Christ' love in a perfect way.

So the statement; my yoke is easy and my burden is light is fulfilled.

Ceallaigh · Jan 7, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). So we cannot go off our feelings or thoughts.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-32 proves that a saved believer can die spiritually, and then come back to God again to the saving of their soul. For when the prodigal son came back home and sought forgiveness with his father over squandering his inheritance on prostitutes, his father said that his son was “dead” and he is “alive AGAIN.” The father said this two times in the parable (Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32). Seeing the prodigal son did not die physically, this means that the son died spiritually and he became alive again spiritually on the account of his actions. The father said he was lost and now he is found. Generally when we speak of the lost, we are talking about the unsaved. James 5:19-20 also teaches this same truth, as well.

There are many warnings to believers about how they will be cast out if they justify sin in this life. The Son of Man (JESUS) will send forth His angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all things which offend (i.e. anything that makes another to stumble into sin like false beliefs held by men), and who whoever works iniquity and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (See: Matthew 13:41-42). We again see something similar happen in Matthew 7:23. Jesus tells certain believers who did wonderful works in His name to depart from Him because they worked iniquity. Iniquity is sin. In Matthew 7:26-27, Jesus says that everyone who does not do what He says, they are like a fool who built His house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. This parable came right off of Matthew 7:23 about those believers who justified sin and were told to depart from Him by the Lord Himself. Acts of the Apostles 3:23 says that if every soul who does not hear that prophet (JESUS) they will be destroyed.

What you said here, is correct in my opinion:

1. Mortal sin - These are any kind of sins that leads to spiritual death (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, idolatry, etc.) unless one confesses such sins to the Lord Jesus Christ and they seek to battle in overcoming these kinds of sins in this life.

We seek to battle. But seeking to battle isn't really battling, is it? It means you're trying not to sin. Not that you're not sinning. If you weren't sinning then you wouldn't be seeking to battle something that doesn't exist.

And just how hard are you really seeking? Afterall you just said:

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). So we cannot go off our feelings or thoughts.

Do you make a list of sins you think in your deceitful heart are the only sins you commit and repent of them, but leave out sins your deceitful heart doesn't see as sin but God does?

Do you think you're living a righteous life like the publican did?

‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’

Or are you like the man who was actually accounted as justified by admitting that he is a sinner? Luke 18:9-14.

Ceallaigh · Jan 7, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

Right now at this very moment there are skateboarders outside my window below and I'm irritated by the noise they're making and I'm hoping they go away soon.

Instead of being up in my apartment, I should be down there in the street preaching the gospel to them.

And right now at this very moment it sounds like they're gone, which means I neglected to go down to them in time, which means I don't really love them enough.

And right now at this very moment there's probably a homeless man out there on the sidewalk, and I'm not going to go down to him to invite him into my apartment, which means I don't really love him enough.

How is it that every second I'm up in my apartment, enjoying its comforts, while there's a homeless man out there living on the sidewalk, I'm not exactly like the rich man in Luke 16:19-31?

I could use the excuse that at the old downtown hotel I live in, it's forbidden to do that.

But if I'm not willing to get evicted for him, that means I don't love him enough to lay down my life for him.

I could probably go on at length about how I'm sinning right now at this very moment.

Soyeong · Jan 8, 2021

klutedavid said:
Galatians 3:12
However, the Law is not of faith.

My post was in regard to what it means to experientially know God, not about whether God's law is of faith, so I'm not sure why you responded by citing Galatians 3:12. In any case, that verse is speaking about works of the law not being of faith, not about God's law. Furthermore there are many verses that show that God's law is of faith and that it is disobedience to God's law that is not of faith:

God's law was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13) and obedience to any set of instructions that are claimed to be for our own good is about putting our faith in the faithfulness of the one who gave them to rightly guide us, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law. What we believe is expressed through our actions, which is why James 2:17-18 says that faith without works is dead and that he would show his faith by his works, so doing good works is what faith looks like. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of someone doing works. In John 3:36, believing in Christ is equated with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept God's commandments are the same as those who kept faith in Jesus. In John 6:40, those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, and in Matthew 19:17, the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so obedience to the commandments is what it looks like to believe in Jesus and to know him. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's law. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, in Romans 16:25-26, Paul's Gospel and the preaching of Christ was to bring about the obedience of faith. In Deuteronomy 28:1, it speaks about faithfully obeying the voice of the Lord. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (2 Samuel 7:28, Nehemiah 9:13, Psalms 19:7, 18:30, 33:4, 111:7, 119:30, 42, 75, 86, 99, 138, 142, 151, 160) and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put our faith in the law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver to rightly guide us, while to deny that God's law is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God.

In Deuteronomy 32:51, Moses broke faith with God because he did not obey what God commanded him to do. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience to God's law is referred to as breaking faith. In Joshua 7:1 and 1 Chronicles 2:7, Israel broke faith by not doing what God commanded. In 1 Chronicles 10:13, Saul broke faith because he did not keep the command of the Lord. In 2 Chronicles 33:19, sin is equated with faithlessness. In Jeremiah 3:6-14, Israel was faithless because they did not obey God. In Ezekiel 14:13, sin is equated with acting faithlessly. In Psalms 119:158, David said that he looked at the faithless with disgust because they did not keep God's commands. In Romans 1:29-32 and Revelation 21:8, being faithless is associated with actions that are in disobedience to God. In 2 Timothy 3:8, those who oppose Moses also oppose the truth, being corrupted of mind and disqualified in regard to the faith. So only those who have faith will obey God's law and will be justified by the same faith, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, but did not say that we earn our justification by obeying the law.

klutedavid · Jan 8, 2021

Soyeong said:
My post was in regard to what it means to experientially know God, not about whether God's law is of faith, so I'm not sure why you responded by citing Galatians 3:12. In any case, that verse is speaking about works of the law not being of faith, not about God's law.

Hello Soyeong.

Galatians 3:12
However, the Law is not of faith.

This verse does not say 'works of the law', it says 'the law'. I cannot comprehend how you cannot see what that verse is really saying?

Galatians 3:21-22
Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

It was never about the law, it is all about Jesus Christ.

Soyeong · Jan 8, 2021

klutedavid said:
Hello Soyeong.

Galatians 3:12
However, the Law is not of faith.

This verse does not say 'works of the law', it says 'the law'. I cannot comprehend how you cannot see what that verse is really saying?

Galatians 3:10-12 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”

Work of the law that are spoken about in Galatians 3:10 are the subject of verse 12. In these verses, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is in contrast with those who instead rely on works of the law, which are not of faith in God. Again, In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Mosaic Law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to the Mosaic Law. And again, a law that is not of faith can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to deny that the Mosaic Law is of faith is to deny that God is trustworthy.

Galatians 3:21-22
Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

In Deuteronomy 30:15-16, it says that obedience to God's law brings life and a blessing. In Deuteronomy 32:47, it is our very life. In Proverbs 3:18, she is a tree of life for all who take hold of her. In Leviticus 18:5, Galatians 3:12, and Romans 10:5, the one who obeys the Mosaic Law will attain life by it. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter eternal life, then obey the commandments. Yet, it is also true that if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would have indeed have been based on the law.

The way that I reconcile these verses is by recognizing that faith is key to everything in the Bible. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so obedience to it should be considered to be acting in faith, and it is by that same faith that we attain life and righteousness, not as though they were earned by the law. Eternal life is not something that can be earned, but rather it is the gift of God (Romans 6:23), so Matthew 19:17, is not speaking about earning eternal life, but about obedience through faith itself being the gift of God, while Galatians 3:21-22 is speaking against earning our righteousness by our obedience to the Mosaic Law. We do not earn our righteousness by obeying the Mosaic Law because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that we don't need to obey it for the purposes for which it was given.

It was never about the law, it is all about Jesus Christ.

The Mosaic Law is all about Jesus Christ (Romans 10:4, John 5:39-46, Luke 24:27, Hebrews 10:7).

Ceallaigh · Jan 8, 2021

I remember a long time ago I was listening to a call-in radio show called "To Every Man an Answer" hosted by Mike Kestler and Leo Giovinetti. And this young man called in sobbing "I think I've lost my salvation!" and immediately they both simultaneously said "you haven't lost salvation!" without even hearing what he had done. And I know that Mike at least believes that you can lose your salvation.

And I wondered at first how those two could make such a snap judgement. But then I realized they had reasoned that if he had actually lost his salvation, he wouldn't be crying his eyes out over whatever he did, and wouldn't be worried about his salvation. I can't remember what his sin was, but I'm pretty sure it was the kind of sin only a saved person would cry his eyes out over that way.

Neogaia777 · Jan 8, 2021

boughtwithaprice said:
thank you for your kind reply. I appreciate your response.
I agree that it is not self will that enables us to be righteous. That would be the Pelegian heresy. It is by the grace of God that we are made righteous, and not of ourselves
We are unable to make ourselves righteous, but God did give us free will. He want us to cooperate with grace. Did he not say, behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man open the door I will come in and he will eat with Me and I with him?
We only need to say yes, as mother Mary did, behold the handmaiden of the Lord, let it be done to me as you say
If you say yes, then God will perfect that work in you as He promised. God wants willing servants. He does not force Himself
Are we going to fail? Yes many times, but we do not give up. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. That’s why Catholics go to confession
The problem with imputed righteousness is that it is a self defeated trick of the mind. To analyze the thought process “I am incapable of being righteous so I am going to give up, keep sinning maybe even worse, but it’s ok because I believe in Jesus”. There is something wrong with that
It’s not believing in Jesus that saves us, even the demons do that, rather believing Jesus
He said be baptized, yes Lord. He said eat my flesh and drink my blood, yes Lord. He said confess your sins and repent, yes Lord
He said I desire obedience rather than sacrifice, yes Lord. He promised to complete the work in you. Do you believe Him?
We need to ask for grace in this life, and we will receive it. Imputed righteousness, implies that we will stay in our sins in this life, but ask for grace in the next
This is nowhere in the Bible. If we wait till eternity it will be too late. Jesus says repent
Are we as the foolish maidens with no oil for our lamps or as the foolish man to whom was said “friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?”
We cannot make ourselves righteous, but we can say yes to God. If today you hear His voice harden not your heart. Open the door

God bless

I just know that I feel I have gone as far as I can in my own will, and now am seeking something that will carry me on through the rest of the way, and I think I am on to something here, something that will or maybe might, etc...

I have reached the "end of the law" or where the law can take me or carry me, etc...

And I need to progress, and make further progress, etc...

I'm not the kind that can abide stagnation, etc...

And have been led to "this" that I am talking about right now or so far, etc...

And I think I will follow it, etc... See where it goes from here, etc...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jan 8, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
To all:

There are those who who say Jesus' burden is light so as to defend Belief Alone-ism or a sin and still be saved gospel.

But they are not reading God's Word in balance with other verses. Jesus also said in Matthew 10:

“He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.” (Matthew 10:37-38).

Some will also say that the Pharisees laid heavy burdens is likened to how we do not need to obey God as a part of salvation: However, the context of the Pharisees placing heavy burdens was not obedience to God's Word. It was their human man made traditions. Jesus had a problem with the Pharisees because they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42).

The heavy burdens they were laying on the backs of other people and other men was the way in which they were teaching/preaching, etc, that did not help at all with sin, but only tended to make it even worse, etc, the sinful temptations anyway, etc...

The "leaven of the Pharisees" Jesus told us to watch out for, etc, which was their teaching, etc...

I was still the ways of the OC or the OT law, and OT law only, etc...

Carefully whitewashed to appear as though it were not or were different, but it still was, etc...

And it is not the NC way, not the way of walking in and living in and with (abiding in) the Spirit, etc...

It was till the OT, OC way of the law, etc... Of salvation based upon works, or our own works based self-righteousness, etc...

It was still that, etc, and Jesus told us to "watch out" for it, etc...

God Bless!

Soyeong · Jan 8, 2021

MMXX said:
I remember a long time ago I was listening to a call-in radio show called "To Every Man an Answer" hosted by Mike Kestler and Leo Giovinetti. And this young man called in sobbing "I think I've lost my salvation!" and immediately they both simultaneously said "you haven't lost salvation!" without even hearing what he had done. And I know that Mike at least believes that you can lose your salvation.

And I wondered at first how those two could make such a snap judgement. But then I realized that if he had actually lost his salvation, he wouldn't be crying his eyes out over whatever he did, and wouldn't be worried about his salvation. I can't remember what his sin was, but I'm pretty sure it was the kind of sin only a saved person would cry his eyes out over that way.

I would agree that our salvation is not something that can be lost accidentally and the fact that someone is concerned about whether they have lost their salvations demonstrates that they have not lost it. However, there is the issue of whether it is possible for someone to intentionally turn their back on God, and it seems to be that there wouldn't be verses warning against doing that if it were not possible, though that gets into the debate of whether someone who turns their back on God was ever really saved in the first place. If someone thinks that because they said the sinner's prayer they are now saved and can therefore spend the rest of their life living in sin without risk of losing their salvation, then I would question whether they were ever actually saved. However, it is less clear whether I can say the same about someone who spends a portion of their life genuinely trying to follow Christ, but later turns their back on God.

Soyeong · Jan 8, 2021

klutedavid said:
My take is even simpler than yours. Those people that used the name of the Lord, performed the same ministry as the apostles, in the name of the Lord. But it appears that they did not really believe in Jesus, otherwise Jesus would have known them obviously.

Everyone sins and no one is any better than anyone else, in God's eyes. So the iniquity or lawlessness that they practiced, was certainly not love from a pure heart. Anything that is not love towards others must be sin.

Indeed, it is possible for someone to obey God's law while missing that the whole goal of the law is to teach us how to know Christ, or in other words, how to have a relationship with him. In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowledge because they didn't understand that Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. So they failed to attain righteousness because they pursued the law as through righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own instead of by pursing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ. In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that they searched the Scriptures because they think that in them they will find eternal life, and they testify about him, yet they refuse to come to him that they might have life. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying the commandments, so eternal life can be found in the Scriptures and the Pharisees were correct to search for it there, but they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in the Scriptures is to testify about how to have a relationship with Jesus, and come to him for eternal life. In Matthew 23:23, where Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faith, so again they were obeying the law while missing its goal, and the same in truth of those spoken against in Matthew 7:21-23. In Philippians 3:8, Paul was in the same boat, where he had been obeying the law without focusing on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and counted it all as rubbish.

Ceallaigh · Jan 8, 2021

Soyeong said:
I would agree that our salvation is not something that can be lost accidentally and the fact that someone is concerned about whether they have lost their salvations demonstrates that they have not lost it. However, there is the issue of whether it is possible for someone to intentionally turn their back on God, and it seems to be that there wouldn't be verses warning against doing that if it were not possible, though that gets into the debate of whether someone who turns their back on God was ever really saved in the first place. If someone thinks that because they said the sinner's prayer they are now saved and can therefore spend the rest of their life living in sin without risk of losing their salvation, then I would question whether they were ever actually saved. However, it is less clear whether I can say the same about someone who spends a portion of their life genuinely trying to follow Christ, but later turns their back on God.

Mike Kestler prefers saying you can leave your salvation. He says if he loses something, he doesn't know how he lost it or where it went. But when you become apostate you don't lose what you had, you chose to leave it. And I think also just not caring at all any longer amounts to the same thing. You didn't make some official decision, you just stopped caring altogether.

klutedavid · Jan 8, 2021

Soyeong said:
Galatians 3:10-12 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”

Work of the law that are spoken about in Galatians 3:10 are the subject of verse 12. In these verses, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is in contrast with those who instead rely on works of the law, which are not of faith in God. Again, In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Mosaic Law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to the Mosaic Law. And again, a law that is not of faith can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to deny that the Mosaic Law is of faith is to deny that God is trustworthy.

In Deuteronomy 30:15-16, it says that obedience to God's law brings life and a blessing. In Deuteronomy 32:47, it is our very life. In Proverbs 3:18, she is a tree of life for all who take hold of her. In Leviticus 18:5, Galatians 3:12, and Romans 10:5, the one who obeys the Mosaic Law will attain life by it. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter eternal life, then obey the commandments. Yet, it is also true that if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would have indeed have been based on the law.

The way that I reconcile these verses is by recognizing that faith is key to everything in the Bible. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so obedience to it should be considered to be acting in faith, and it is by that same faith that we attain life and righteousness, not as though they were earned by the law. Eternal life is not something that can be earned, but rather it is the gift of God (Romans 6:23), so Matthew 19:17, is not speaking about earning eternal life, but about obedience through faith itself being the gift of God, while Galatians 3:21-22 is speaking against earning our righteousness by our obedience to the Mosaic Law. We do not earn our righteousness by obeying the Mosaic Law because it was never given for that purpose, but that doesn't mean that we don't need to obey it for the purposes for which it was given.

The Mosaic Law is all about Jesus Christ (Romans 10:4, John 5:39-46, Luke 24:27, Hebrews 10:7).

Obedience to the law for example, would be the Sabbath observance. Any Sabbath observance is always an obvious and outward, work of the law. The law requires your effort, your work, and that is in every line of the law.

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse.

You could equally say.

Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on an obedience to the law are under a curse.

Both verses are identical.

All who obey the law, i.e., practice the law, honor the Sabbath, are under a curse.

The purpose of the law is a light for your soul, in that it only grants the knowledge of sin. And the need for your salvation from that sin. The law never grants any righteousness, or life, or anything else of benefit.

Galatians 3:5
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

OR BY HEARING WITH FAITH

Hearing and not working by faith.

Ceallaigh · Jan 8, 2021

It seems to me that there are stages to sanctification. There's battling certain sins of yours and then there's not being tempted by them any longer. There's nothing to resist and battle because you have risen above it. If Satan does try to tempt you with them your reaction is one of disgust like Satan saying, "why don't you go eat some dung?" Or even a reaction of laughing at sin, like if Satan said "hey why don't you go stick your tongue into that light socket?" Haha yeah, no thanks.

Neogaia777 · Jan 8, 2021

It is not bad or wrong or evil to seek to live up to obeying the law, cause that's not what either Jesus nor Paul was saying, etc, it was just "the way" in which almost all were trying to go about that was all wrong or bad, or only promotes or spurs on evil only, etc...

If you don't seek to obey by the Spirit in you and with you causing you to obey in you, then it is all wrong, and bad, and only promotes only more sin and only more evil always, etc, in part because you think it is you that is responsible for doing it, which always leads to only evil only, etc...

Because the Spirit in you causing you to obey in you, is not being done by you, etc, and that is where way, way too many are way, way too much way "in error", etc...

Also "teaching" contrary to this, because it/that will always be "contrary to this", etc, is also very wrong, or bad or evil also, etc, and is even "apostate", etc, and Jesus told us to "watch out" for it always, etc...

It is the way people are seeking to go about to be obeying any law that is all wrong, or bad or evil, etc, only promotes evil, etc...

If you can take credit for it, ever, not only will it not be really real or true, but it will also always lead to doing and being evil towards others always, at the very least always in your mind and heart and thinking and behaviors and attitudes always, etc...

This why that way, is totally against, and is even an enemy or this other way, or the true way, etc...

Which is the Holy Spirit in you, etc...

It is very, very "anti-Love", when you go about obedience in this very wrong and/or evil way, that is contrary to, and only stands forever against, the true way, etc...

"Relationship" is paramount, etc, if you ever want to be ever walking in this true way, etc, that is why those without it, are all to often still in the other way still, etc, a way that is in every way completely "anti" to this true way, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!

Danthemailman · Jan 8, 2021

Gracia Singh said:
By faith, but not by faith alone.

We are justified by faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1 etc..) which is not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - (barren of works). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Danthemailman · Jan 8, 2021

klutedavid said:
My take is even simpler than yours. Those people that used the name of the Lord, performed the same ministry as the apostles, in the name of the Lord. But it appears that they did not really believe in Jesus, otherwise Jesus would have known them obviously.

In Matthew 7:23 we see that Jesus NEVER knew these many people which means they were NEVER saved. These many people in Matthew 7:22 were not genuine believers.

Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Does faith justify? (I have an answer, but would like input.

Does faith justify?

Yes

No

I don't know.

Other (Please explain)

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Legend

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