20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Timtofly said:

What physical Kingdom is Christ giving, if you only allow for a spiritual one? Christ offers up this physical Kingdom after a literal physical reign, not prior to. Only the spiritual Kingdom is literal now. The physical Kingdom is certainly not a current reality.

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Do you even try to understand what people are saying to you? I didn't say the physical kingdom is a current reality. I clearly said that He will deliver the kingdom, which is currently spiritual because it did not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36), to the Father when He returns, which is how I interpret 1 Cor 15:22-24. It is at that point that the Father will reign with His Son by His side in the new heavens and new earth for eternity.

Can you show in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 where a thousand year earthly kingdom fits in with what Paul wrote there? Any premil who reads that passage objectively should acknowledge that Paul gives no hint of a long period of time between "His coming" and "the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father".

Timtofly said:

They and their works will be burned up.
You fail to see the longsuffering God even in judgment. Judgment is not instantaneous, just like life has not been instantaneous. Revelation gives us Trumpets, Thunders, and vials, at least a dozen different types of dying, not just fire.

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The longsuffering comes before the final day of wrath, which will be by fire, as Peter clearly taught in 2 Peter 3:3-13. Is that not what Revelation 20:9 indicates as well? I see 2 Peter 3:10-12 as being the same event as Revelation 20:9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 will happen on the day Christ returns. Each passage describes fire coming down upon the earth and destroying all unbelievers there. That isn't going to happen twice.

sovereigngrace said:

You are adding to Scripture again. It does not say "the first resurrection of humans." It says: "the first resurrection."

Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23?

Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?

Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?

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It couldn't be more clear, but he will still deny this. Using scripture to interpret scripture is a foreign concept to him.

sovereigngrace said:

Another false allegation.

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Then prove there are people alive today since the Cross, who cannot die. Revelation 20:4 clearly states they live on earth, and can never die again. You deny this wholeheartedly, and claim heaven, when heaven is not mentioned once, except fire came down from heaven, proving it is on earth they have lived, as you put it, since the Cross.

Spiritual Jew said:

Do you even try to understand what people are saying to you? I didn't say the physical kingdom is a current reality. I clearly said that He will deliver the kingdom, which is currently spiritual because it did not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world (John 18:36), to the Father when He returns, which is how I interpret 1 Cor 15:22-24. It is at that point that the Father will reign with His Son by His side in the new heavens and new earth for eternity.

Can you show in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 where a thousand year earthly kingdom fits in with what Paul wrote there? Any premil who reads that passage objectively should acknowledge that Paul gives no hint of a long period of time between "His coming" and "the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father".

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Does it matter how long an earthly reign has to be as long as it is on earth? Did it matter to Paul? You deny too many other points to argue from the absence of evidence. It did not matter to Paul. Even the last 1900 years did not matter to Paul either, as he did not prophecy or mention them either.

Spiritual Jew said:

The longsuffering comes before the final day of wrath, which will be by fire, as Peter clearly taught in 2 Peter 3:3-13. Is that not what Revelation 20:9 indicates as well? I see 2 Peter 3:10-12 as being the same event as Revelation 20:9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 will happen on the day Christ returns. Each passage describes fire coming down upon the earth and destroying all unbelievers there. That isn't going to happen twice.

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So stop telling people it happens twice. Where is fire at Armageddon? No where!

Timtofly said:

So stop telling people it happens twice. Where is fire at Armageddon? No where!

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When did I ever say it happens twice? I didn't. I specifically said that it won't happen twice. Are you for real or do you purposely ask ridiculous questions to see what kind of response you get?

As for the question about fire at Armageddon, the verses related to Armageddon don't say how the destruction occurs literally. Unless you want to insist that Jesus will slay them with a literal sword coming out of His mouth, which is clearly a ridiculous notion.

Spiritual Jew said:

You act as if He is up in heaven just twiddling His thumbs while He is waiting to rule

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Exactly as He is. Psalms 2:3-4, Psalms 11:4, Hebrews 1:13, +

Spiritual Jew said:

Show me where it indicates that the new earth will not be physical. You made that claim, so back it up.

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Rev 21 to 22 seen to be describing a physical Eternity, but we know that physical things pass away, so we will have to wait on that one.

Spiritual Jew said:

Even if His death was immediately or shortly after the 69th week, it still places it within the 70th week, which you deny.

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It was immediately after the 69th week, as the 70th week simply does not fit anywhere at that time.
Any denials of this truth are made by those who have another agenda, a refusal to countenance the idea that they might have to live thru that difficult time.

Spiritual Jew said:

That is incredibly shameful! Unbelievable.

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What is really shameful is your non response to the points I made.
The stop to the sacrifices and offerings and the Abomination of Desolation, Daniel 9:27, does not come until 40 years later.

I repeat: the 70th week doesn't fit in the first century. The final seven years will happen at the end of the Church age.

keras said:

Rev 21 to 22 seen to be describing a physical Eternity, but we know that physical things pass away, so we will have to wait on tht one.

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Oh, so now you're not so sure that the new earth won't be physical?

It was immediately after the 69th week, as the 70the week simply does not fit anywhere at that time.

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It can't be AFTER the 69th week and still be within the 69th week. You've lost all sense of logic here. Since it occurred AFTER the 69th week that places it within the 70th week even if that meant the first day of the 70th week.

Any denials of this truth are made by those who have another agenda, a refusal to countenance the idea that they might have to live thru that difficult time.

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This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen anyone say about anything. You don't have a clue. I am not afraid of any tribulation, persecution or any kind of trouble whatsoever. You have no idea what I've been through. Bring it on no matter what it is. I know that I can get through anything with Christ on my side.

What is really shameful is your non response to the points I made.
The stop to the sacrifices and offerings and the Abomination of Desolation, Daniel 9:27, does not come until 40 years later.

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Don't tell me anything about not responding to your points. I respond to more of your points than anyone here and you know that. Jesus put an end to the need for animal sacrifices and offerings by way of His sacrifice "once for all". He made the old covenant obsolete with His sacrifice which put into effect the new covenant.

I repeat: the 79th week doesn't fit in the first century. The final seven years will happen at the end of the Church age.

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You obviously meant the 70th week. You can repeat that all you want, but I repeat that it is ridiculous to create a huge gap in the prophecy when the prophecy itself gives no such indication of any gaps within it.

Spiritual Jew said:

When did I ever say it happens twice? I didn't. I specifically said that it won't happen twice. Are you for real or do you purposely ask ridiculous questions to see what kind of response you get?

As for the question about fire at Armageddon, the verses related to Armageddon don't say how the destruction occurs literally. Unless you want to insist that Jesus will slay them with a literal sword coming out of His mouth, which is clearly a ridiculous notion.

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Have you ever seen fire that instantly consumed a human body? A sword is no more ridiculous than fire in this case. So it seems you are the one belligerent even in your symbolism. Fire is just as symbolic as a sword (in a mouth). If you assume fire is at Armageddon you are inserting that assumption into the text. There is no sword at the Second Coming as Paul did not mention one. Paul saying our works are going to be burned up, at least the carnal ones, is a judgment on works. Not the end of existence.

Spiritual Jew said:

Oh, so now you're not so sure that the new earth won't be physical?

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Yes; it is described as physical, but it is also Eternal and a Spiritual place, like heaven. We will see in due course of time.

Spiritual Jew said:

It can't be AFTER the 69th week and still be within the 69th week. You've lost all sense of logic here. Since it occurred AFTER the 69th week that places it within the 70th week even if that meant the first day of the 70th week.

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The Crucifixion of Jesus happened at the end point of the 69th week.
All the things prophesied for the 70th week, have yet to happen.

Spiritual Jew said:

I am not afraid of any tribulation, persecution or any kind of trouble whatsoever. You have no idea what I've been through. Bring it on no matter what it is. I know that I can get through anything with Christ on my side.

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I am pleased to hear it. We must stand strong in our faith thru all that will happen.

Spiritual Jew said:

You can repeat that all you want, but I repeat that it is ridiculous to create a huge gap in the prophecy when the prophecy itself gives no such indication of any gaps within it.

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Why even need prophecy to prove there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks? The normal passage of time for the last 1990 years, does that.
Revelation describes very well, the events of the second half, the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. He has told us what will happen then.

The first half will be a time of peace, as the 7 year treaty holds.

keras said:

The day Jesus was crucified was the last day of the 69th week.

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I showed you that Jesus arrived at the completion of the 69th week and you never dealt with it.


Dan 9
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.


Jesus was anointed at his Baptism to accomplish his mission as the Messiah.
You have him crucified before he arrives.

jeffweedaman said:

I showed you that Jesus arrived at the completion of the 69th week and you never dealt with it.


Dan 9
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.


Jesus was anointed at his Baptism to accomplish his mission as the Messiah.
You have him crucified before he arrives.

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No. I just thought your Bible maybe didn't have Daniel 9:26 in it.
That verse plainly gives the event that fixes the timing of the completion of the 69 weeks. In fact; 483 years since the decree to restore Jerusalem, - in 33 AD, when the Anointed Prince was removed.

keras said:

No. I just thought your Bible maybe didn't have Daniel 9:26 in it.

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Every bible has Dan 9:26 in it.


[ That verse plainly gives the event that fixes the timing of the completion of the 69 weeks.]

No , the previous verse 25 does....,


25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

"Until Messiah" can only occur after 69 weeks. He accomplishes his work of Atonement after the 69 weeks in the 70th week, bringing Atonement and forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Accomplished a lot on his cross didnt he...

jeffweedaman said:

Every bible has Dan 9:26 in it.

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Just being sarcastic. I meant how you failed to study context.

The belief of the 70th week having happened from Jesus' anointing, mid at the Crucifixion, then what did it end with 3 1/2 years later? Is unsupportable because what happened then is nothing like what is prophesied to happen in Daniel 9:27, 11:29-35, Revelation 13:5-8, 2 Thess 2:4, plus.

jeffweedaman said:

25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

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When He was born, then 30 years later; Baptized, then 3 years later Crucified?
Your assumption of Baptism and Anointing does not fly, as He was cut off at the end of the 69th week.

keras said:

When He was born, then 30 years later; Baptized, then 3 years later Crucified?

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That is exactly what happened.


[ Your assumption of Baptism and Anointing does not fly, as He was cut off at the end of the 69th week.]


Baptism and anointing does fly.
All anointing comes from the Holy Spirit when it comes to the ministry of reconciliation.


Act 2
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Lk 3
21 Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came from heaven: “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well pleased.”
23 When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years old,


2Cor 5
16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one by the flesh; even though we have known Christ by the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, this person is a new creation; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

jeffweedaman said:

Baptism and anointing does fly.
All anointing comes from the Holy Spirit when it comes to the ministry of reconciliation.

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I repeat: the 69th week ends when Jesus was Crucified. Daniel 9:26
He was Anointed to carry out His earthly mission.

keras said:

I repeat: the 69th week ends when Jesus was Crucified. Daniel 9:26
He was Anointed to carry out His earthly mission.

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Lol. Can you comment on v 25???
what was his earthly mission when he was baptized?

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.



Lk 4
4 Now Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness ....,

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He anointed Me to bring good news to the poor.
He has sent Me to proclaim release to captives,
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set free those who are oppressed,
19 To proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.”

20 And He rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all the people in the synagogue were intently directed at Him. 21 Now He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”