keras

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Under what covenant is the Church Established?

Has to be the blood that was shed for the NC
I repeat; The New Covenant is yet to be cut with His faithful peoples.

This truth is plainly obvious because the results of it are yet to happen.
But don't let Scripture get in your way.
Why don't you and BaB give up your wrong beliefs?

The NC was not made at Jesus death. There was no Church then.
So tell me; when was it made between Him and His people?

Remember; God is working out a great master Plan. There is a little way to go yet, before He has the people together that He always wanted, but has never yet had, all together in all of His holy Land.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The NC was not made at Jesus death. There was no Church then.
So tell me; when was it made between Him and His people?

Who writes your script? Your teachers have taught you wrong again. The Hebrew words that are used in the Old Testament to describe the overall company of the children of Israel are qâhâl and ‛êdâh. These words are usually translated, and mean, “congregation” or “assembly.” But, the Old Testament was not just written in Hebrew; it was also written in Greek. Interestingly, the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint or LXX) normally uses the word ekklesia (from ek- + kaleo, meaning “to call”) in place of these two Hebrew words to describe the gathering of the congregation of old covenant Israel. The word ekklesia literally means ‘the called-out assembly’. Notwithstanding: there are some instances where the Greek Old Testament translators use the word sunagoge to represent the same Hebrew words.

When you examine the usage of qâhâl and ‛êdâh in the Old Testament, you discover that they are interchangeably used throughout the ancient text and are considered by most Hebrew scholars to be synonymous, even though they are different Hebrew words. There are even times when these same or similar Hebrew words are linked together in the same text in order to describe ‘the congregating [verb] of the congregation [noun]’ or ‘the assembling [verb] of the assembly [noun]’. Number 20:1-13 is a case-in-point.

This should help us understand the true meaning and origin of the Greek word ekklesia. When used in a religious sense, we are basically looking at the congregation or assembly of God’s people. The word ekklesia can apply to a secular gathering, so the translator’s insistence upon the word “Church” is misplaced and not an appropriate rendering of the word.

Anders Runesson, a professor of New Testament at the University of Oslo, Norway, explains: “the ancient Mediterranean world, the word ekklesia was used in various ways and for various types of both political and unofficial, or semi-public institutions … The way the word ‘ekklesia’ functions in these ancient discourses thus differs from how the term ‘church’ functions in common usage today; if we agree that a translation should communicate approximate meaning across time and culture then clearly this particular translation is inaccurate. A historically more attuned translation of ekklēsia would be ‘assembly’, since this word leaves open for a variety of applications in religio-political or semi-public settings and does not lock the meaning of ekklesia into an anachronistic frame of reference” (Ekklesia).

The exact same Greek word used in the Greek Old Testament (ekklesia) is also used in the Greek New Testament to describe God’s people. This is no mere coincidence. It shows us the practical and spiritual connection and link between both. It is therefore right and reasonable for us to understand and translate the word in a similar vein in the New Testament. We should remember that it was the believing remnant of the Old Testament ekklesia of Israel (true Israel) that in fact became the infant New Testament Church (ekklesia or congregation or assembly). The Gospel was actually received and embraced first by those among natural Israel who had eyes to see and ears to hear.

Granted, whether one interprets ekklesia as “congregation,” “assembly,” “gathering” or “Church” does not change the overall New Testament reality. The fact remains, the word still describes the same overall religious company. But what is sure is that the forceful, undeniable and consistent evidence before us proves that the ekklesia refers to the gathering of God’s people throughout all ages.

Theologian John J Parsons who majors in Hebrew research, explains: “It appears to be a major fault of various English translations of the Christian Bible that the word ‘Church’ was translated for the Greek word ekklesia in the New Testament, since this suggests an anti-Jewish bias in their work by implying that there is a radical discontinuity between ‘Israel’ and the the ekklesia of Jesus (i.e., the ‘Church’). In other words, if the same Greek word (ekklesia) is used in both the LXX and the NT, then why was a new word coined for its usage in the English translation of the New Testament? Why not translate the word as it was used in the LXX, or better still, as it was used in the OT Scriptures?”

He continues: “In the New Testament sense, the word ekklesia refers to the group of ‘called out’ people (from every tribe and tongue) in covenant with God by means of their trust in Jesus Christ. In particular, this is composed of only those people who confess their faith that Jesus (Yeshua) is none other than Adonai come in the flesh.”

The word ekklesia (Church) is found 77 times in the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint or LXX) referring to Israel. This proves that the terms “Church” and “Israel” are synonymous and interchangeable. Christ and the Apostles employed and quoted extensively from the Septuagint during the early New Testament Church. The word is found 116 times in the New Testament. It was a term that they were very familiar with. The Septuagint was written about 200 years before Christ was born. While Dispensationalist conveniently portray the ekklesia as an Old Testament mystery and a New Testament phenomenon, Christ and the disciples were not so ignorant.

The ekklesia is found throughout the Greek Old Testament – the Septuagint (LXX): in Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1 Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Lamentations, Joel, and Micah. That is 16 of the Old Testament books, which is nearly half of them.

The Old Testament prophets lamented for centuries over the blindness and deafness of many among visible outward Israel (Isaiah 6:9–10, Jeremiah 5:21, and Ezekiel 12:2). This prepared the way for Christ and His liberating spiritual message to the nation. Jesus directed strong rebukes to those within natural Israel that professed but didn’t possess. He warned in Matthew 13:15-16: “For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.”

Many had eyes to see in the natural but they did not have eyes to see in the spiritual. They had ears to hear in the natural but they did not have ears to hear in the spiritual.

The saved saints under the Mosaic covenant were simply the assembly of God of that day. Also, the kingdom which was repeatedly promised to the remnant of Israel developed into the New Testament gathering. Elect Israel and the elect Church were/are the same entity. The word ekklesia conveys the idea of a common assembly in both eras. The New Testament ekklesia is simply an extension of the Old Testament ekklesia (qâhâl or ‛êdâh), albeit it has taken on a different form under the new covenant.

Mirroring the process that a caterpillar undergoes developing into the maturity and beauty of a colorful butterfly, the Old Testament Church underwent a significant metamorphic change in the New Testament, progressing into the current Spirit-filled international New Testament Church. The ekklesia essentially took on wings! That is not to say that we can separate the elect of God in either dispensation or view them as two different entities. Rather, we must view both as the same organic entity. Just because Old Testament Israel and the New Testament Church carry different names and possess a different outward appearance and scope of movement does not negate the fact they are the same overall entity.

Ray Porter highlights a notable difference with the New Testament ekklesia compared to its old covenant counterpart. He shows that it is found in the fact that it is “united not on the basis of a shared culture, language, or previous religious loyalties, but … [is] united around the Messiah” (The Church Local, Wider, and Universal).

Dispensational theologians do their best to put a wedge between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament. They try to divide them into two unrelated entities. They advocate an apartheid between both and teach a separation theology. They suggest that there is a total disconnect and a radical discontinuity between the Old Testament ekklesia and the New Testament ekklesia. They argue that they are two completely distinct and separate entities. However, repeated New Testament Scripture demonstrates that the believing element (or righteous remnant) of the Old Testament congregation and that of the New Testament congregation are spiritually joined through Christ, and His atoning work on the cross.

Dispensationalists typically present the New Testament ekklesia as a brand-new spiritual innovation, which had no origin prior to Pentecost. They teach that the Church itself is a “mystery” and that it is a completely separate entity to God’s people in the Old Testament. They say, because the New Testament Church is expressly called “the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God” that it is a brand-new construction started in the upper room. They contend that the Apostle Paul was specifically and specially tasked with revealing this great mystery.

What they miss, or deliberately distort, is that Paul was actually teaching the complete opposite to what they assert. Ephesians 3:1-9 tells us: “For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

The debate is not over whether the ekklesia was some new innovation or whether it has replaced Israel or not (because it hasn’t) but rather, (1) is the new covenant congregation of God’s people spiritually connected to the old covenant congregation of God’s people and (2) do believing Gentiles after the cross enjoy an equal status with believing Jews?

The mystery regarding the congregation is not that it was unknown to the Old Testament prophets, but rather that believing Gentiles were integrated into the believing congregation on an equal footing (as fellow heirs) as existing Jewish believers. Dispensationalists fail to see that the ekklesia is not a New Testament novelty introduced at Pentecost but an ongoing spiritual organism that has contained the elect of God from the very beginning.

The new covenant congregation is not something entirely unique and new in God’s plan and purposes, totally separated from His old covenant people, but is an extension of Old Testament believing Israel. The New Testament assembly is the ongoing continuation of faithful old covenant Israel. Whilst the New Testament gathering has taken on a different form under the new covenant, the elect in the Old Testament and the elect in the New Testament are part of the same spiritual body.

Paul identifies “the mystery” here in a clear and unambiguous way in verse 6, namely: “That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” Here is the crux of his argument: he demonstrates that the notable metamorphosis that occurred as the old covenant ekklesia changed into the new covenant ekklesia resulted in the Gentiles assuming an equal footing to the Jews. There is no longer any favoritism. The mystery is the parity that occurred from this merger in regard to the promises of God.

Paul never said that the ekklesia wasn’t about before Pentecost, as Dispensationalists wrongly argue. In fact, he teaches the opposite. The Dispensational interpretation is the exact reverse to what the inspired text is actually saying. Paul is in fact talking about the joining of the old and new covenant saints together in Christ. The mystery is the mystical union of the people of God of all time in one spiritual body.

It was always God’s heart to expand His old covenant congregation (the ekklesia) out beyond the borders of national Israel, to reach the Gentile people. The Church itself was not a mystery (or secret) prior to Paul, neither was God’s great eternal plan of redemption, neither was the ingathering of the Gentiles. Passage after passage in the Old Testament predicted these events. What was a mystery was the Gentiles being “fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel.” Dispensationalists make the existence of the ekklesia the “mystery” in order to support their theology, even though it has been around as long as there have been believers.

Ephesians 3:1-9 is just another example of the gradual spiritual unfolding of the progressive revelation of God. In this instance, it shows how New Testament Gentiles would possess an equal status to that of New Testament Jews under the new covenant arrangement. This was something that was largely veiled in the Old Testament.

John Gay explains: “The Church is the assembly of people, whether Jew or Gentile, who have been called out of the world to form the spiritual body of Christ (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 12:13). Those in the Church come together by the Spirit and through the Messiah. They are said to be ‘in Christ’ (Romans 8:1; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 1:13).”

He sums up: “The Church is Jews who have been physically called out of the nations, but also spiritually called out from unbelieving Israel, and Gentiles who have been spiritually called out of the nations to worship the God of Israel. Both spiritually called-out peoples form one called-out people known as the Church. These called-out ones are saved by faith in the pattern of their spiritual father, Abraham (Romans 4:11). Thus, while only some in the Church are physically Jewish, all in the Church are spiritually Jewish. They are circumcised of the heart (Romans 2:29), the offspring of Abraham (Romans 4:16) and citizens of Israel (Ephesians 2:12, 19)” (Remnant Theology, A Different Perspective on the Church and Israel).

That’s why Stephen could declare, in reference to the Old Testament saints, in Acts 7:36-38, he (Moses) had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.”

The writer of the Hebrews quotes and applies the word ecclesia, as it exactly reads in Psalm 22:22 in the Greek Septuagint, to the Old Testament saints, saying: “I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee” (Hebrews 2:12).

Psalm 22:22 reads, “I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.”

This quote is taken directly from the Greek Septuagint, the same Bible Jesus, the disciples and Paul used in the first century. It proves that the ekklesia (Strong’s 1577) or the Church was alive, kicking, and written about throughout the Old Testament. Wherever people of faith were found and written about; the 'Church' was there to see.

The two phrases are therefore plainly synonymous and interchangeable, specifically relating to the people of God throughout time.

1 Corinthians 10:1 & 4 says, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea ... And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

Hebrews 11:23-26 says, By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.”
 
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keras

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“The Church is Jews who have been physically called out of the nations, but also spiritually called out from unbelieving Israel, and Gentiles who have been spiritually called out of the nations to worship the God of Israel. Both spiritually called-out peoples form one called-out people known as the Church.
This I quite agree with.
But you haven't identified the time a New Covenant was or will be made with those faithful Christian peoples.
Jesus did His part of it be shedding His Blood, we have yet to make ours, as a gathered nation, in all of the holy Land; as prophesied:

Isaiah 35:10 The Lord’s people, set free, will enter Zion with shouts of triumph… Gladness and joy will come upon them, while suffering and sorrow will pass away.

Psalms 149:4-5 For the Lord accepts the service of His people and crowns the lowly with victory. Let His loyal servants exult in triumph!

Jeremiah 33:6 & 25 I shall restore the Land, My people will live there. They will shout: Praise the Lord of Hosts, for He is good and His love endured forever.

Psalms 69:36 Those who serve the Lord and love His Name, will inherit the Land.

Psalms 37:9 Those who trust in the Lord, will inherit the Land.

Isaiah 57:13b but, he who makes Me his refuge, will possess the Land.

Psalms 85:9 Certainly, His loyal followers will soon experience His deliverance, then glory will appear in our Land.

Isaiah 61:3-6 My righteous people, planted in the Lord’s holy Land, to display His glory.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the humble, for they will inherit the Land.

Isaiah 29:19-22 The lowly and poor will once again rejoice in the Lord, sinners will be cut down.

Jeremiah 12:14-15 The Lord says: I shall uproot those evil people who occupy My holy Land…. Judah may come back only if they learn the ways of My [Christian] people.

Isaiah 32:15-20 The Land has been [will be] made forsaken and desolated….but in a very short time, it will become a garden Land, where My people will dwell in peace.

Zechariah 9:16 The Lord will save His people like a flock, for they are like precious jewels, that sparkle all about His Land.

Jeremiah 23:3-4 I will bring My sheep back to the Land, they will increase and be fruitful. I shall appoint shepherds who will tend them, they will live in peace.

John 10:16 There are other sheep of Mine, not of this fold. I will lead them, they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one Shepherd.

Ezekiel 34:11-31….You are My flock, the sheep that I feed and I am your God

Isaiah 66:18b-21 I will gather My people from every race, nation and language. They will come on every type of conveyance, as an offering to the Lord in Zion.

Psalms 107:1-3 & 36-38 Let those redeemed by the Lord, give thanks. All of His righteous people, gathered from around the world. They are blessed with peace and prosperity.

Psalms 147:12-20 The Lord has brought peace and plenty to His Land. Praise the Lord!
 
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sovereigngrace

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This I quite agree with.
But you haven't identified the time a New Covenant was or will be made with those faithful Christian peoples.
Jesus did His part of it be shedding His Blood, we have yet to make ours, as a gathered nation, in all of the holy Land; as prophesied:

Isaiah 35:10 The Lord’s people, set free, will enter Zion with shouts of triumph… Gladness and joy will come upon them, while suffering and sorrow will pass away.

Psalms 149:4-5 For the Lord accepts the service of His people and crowns the lowly with victory. Let His loyal servants exult in triumph!

Jeremiah 33:6 & 25 I shall restore the Land, My people will live there. They will shout: Praise the Lord of Hosts, for He is good and His love endured forever.

Psalms 69:36 Those who serve the Lord and love His Name, will inherit the Land.

Psalms 37:9 Those who trust in the Lord, will inherit the Land.

Isaiah 57:13b but, he who makes Me his refuge, will possess the Land.

Psalms 85:9 Certainly, His loyal followers will soon experience His deliverance, then glory will appear in our Land.

Isaiah 61:3-6 My righteous people, planted in the Lord’s holy Land, to display His glory.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the humble, for they will inherit the Land.

Isaiah 29:19-22 The lowly and poor will once again rejoice in the Lord, sinners will be cut down.

Jeremiah 12:14-15 The Lord says: I shall uproot those evil people who occupy My holy Land…. Judah may come back only if they learn the ways of My [Christian] people.

Isaiah 32:15-20 The Land has been [will be] made forsaken and desolated….but in a very short time, it will become a garden Land, where My people will dwell in peace.

Zechariah 9:16 The Lord will save His people like a flock, for they are like precious jewels, that sparkle all about His Land.

Jeremiah 23:3-4 I will bring My sheep back to the Land, they will increase and be fruitful. I shall appoint shepherds who will tend them, they will live in peace.

John 10:16 There are other sheep of Mine, not of this fold. I will lead them, they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one Shepherd.

Ezekiel 34:11-31….You are My flock, the sheep that I feed and I am your God

Isaiah 66:18b-21 I will gather My people from every race, nation and language. They will come on every type of conveyance, as an offering to the Lord in Zion.

Psalms 107:1-3 & 36-38 Let those redeemed by the Lord, give thanks. All of His righteous people, gathered from around the world. They are blessed with peace and prosperity.

Psalms 147:12-20 The Lord has brought peace and plenty to His Land. Praise the Lord!

Can I remind you the Messiah came to Israel 2000 years ago. He opened heavenly Zion to the lost.
 
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keras

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Can I remind you the Messiah came to Israel 2000 years ago. He opened heavenly Zion to the lost.
But we still live on earth.

I posted 19 verses, and there's many more; that clearly say how the Lord's faithful people will inherit the holy Land. Ephesians 1:10-14
It is our heritage and our great privilege to be alive now and likely to participate in the great time of living there. Amos 9:13-15
 
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jeffweedaman

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But we still live on earth.
Doesnt matter.
We are seated in the heavenly realm , the heavenly Zion.

We are to inherit not the old - what is fallen on this earth, but inherit the restored new earth that Peter was looking for at the Lords coming.

We come down from the heavenly realms as the NJ already prepared, on a NHNE.

Heb 12
8 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words, which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20 For they could not cope with the command, “If even an animal touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I am terrified and trembling.”

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

The Unshaken Kingdom
25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns us from heaven. 26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven.” 27 This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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This I quite agree with.
But you haven't identified the time a New Covenant was or will be made with those faithful Christian peoples.
Jesus did His part of it be shedding His Blood, we have yet to make ours, as a gathered nation, in all of the holy Land; as prophesied:
The new covenant is a covenant God made with people and it was established by the blood of Christ. The way for a person to enter into the covenant is by putting his or her faith in Christ. That's it. There's no basis for making it more complicated than that.

Salvation through the new covenant is on an individual basis based on individual faith in Christ and whether one is Jew or Gentile makes no difference.

Your attempt to make it a corporate thing or to make it about a patch of land instead of spiritual salvation contradicts what the new covenant is all about.
 
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Christian Gedge

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I see you live in Australia. Need I say more?
Jeff is right when he says we are, “seated with Christ.”

We understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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keras

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Jeff is right when he says we are, “seated with Christ.”
Some people are so spiritual, they are of no earthly use.
The time will come when God's people will literally sit with Him; Revelation 21:1-7
But until that time, we live on a physical earth. And we are soon to face testing times, surely people can see that Jesus won't be Returning to the earth just as it is now?
Your attempt to make it a corporate thing or to make it about a patch of land instead of spiritual salvation contradicts what the new covenant is all about.
It is both.
Your ignoring of the physical aspects, as well as the results of the full implementation of the New Covenant, is your bad.
 
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Some people are so spiritual, they are of no earthly use.
The time will come when God's people will literally sit with Him; Revelation 21:1-7
We all believe that.

But until that time, we live on a physical earth. And we are soon to face testing times, surely people can see that Jesus won't be Returning to the earth just as it is now?
Who is saying that? Some premils think that, but Amils certainly don't. We believe He will be returning to burn up the earth and make it new, resulting in the new earth (2 Peter 3:10-13).

It is both.
Your ignoring of the physical aspects, as well as the results of the full implementation of the New Covenant, is your bad.
I don't ignore the physical aspects. We will inherit the new earth when Christ returns. The New Covenant is already fully in effect and was made so by the blood of Christ. Your failure to recognize that is your bad.
 
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BABerean2

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The NC was not made at Jesus death.


Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.


.
 
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keras

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Heb 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. .
Mediator; to bring about settlement of a dispute, to resolve differences....
NOT the person with whom the covenant is made, but in this case, the One with whom it will be made. He has done His part, now we Christians must do ours and also it waits for the time when His faithful people will gather as one nation in the holy Land. Isaiah 61:3-11

Hebrews 9:15 does not say the New Covenant was made when Jesus died.
How could it be; the Christian Church hadn't even started then.
 
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jgr

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Mediator; to bring about settlement of a dispute, to resolve differences....
NOT the person with whom the covenant is made, but in this case, the One with whom it will be made. He has done His part, now we Christians must do ours and also it waits for the time when His faithful people will gather as one nation in the holy Land. Isaiah 61:3-11

Hebrews 9:15 does not say the New Covenant was made when Jesus died.
How could it be; the Christian Church hadn't even started then.

Hebrews 9
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

What do you think "is of force" means?
 
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keras

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Jesus has done His part of the Covenant. We still are working toward our side of it. Not there yet.

But as those who demand we are in the New Covenant now, refuse to address the points against that being the case, the discussion on that issue is over.
 
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Jesus has done His part of the Covenant. We still are working toward our side of it. Not there yet.

But as those who demand we are in the New Covenant now, refuse to address the points against that being the case, the discussion on that issue is over.

You didn't answer post 414.
 
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keras

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You didn't answer post 414.
I did.
Jesus has done His part, He now waits for us to do ours, by faith in Him.

Now you address Isaiah 61:8 and prove that all the 6 results of the New Covenant are in operation now.
 
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BABerean2

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Mediator; to bring about settlement of a dispute, to resolve differences....
NOT the person with whom the covenant is made, but in this case, the One with whom it will be made. He has done His part, now we Christians must do ours and also it waits for the time when His faithful people will gather as one nation in the holy Land. Isaiah 61:3-11

Hebrews 9:15 does not say the New Covenant was made when Jesus died.
How could it be; the Christian Church hadn't even started then.


What percentage of your salvation is based on what Christ did at Calvary, and what percentage is based on what you do?

Has Christ resolved your differences with God? If He has not, you are doomed to eternal punishment.

.
 
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FaithWillDo

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All the action happens after 7 and 62 weeks...,


Dan 9
25 So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

What does Messiah do once he comes after 69 weeks?

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sin,
to make atonement for iniquity,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the most holy place.


Did Jesus complete this work that the Father gave him to do?


Jn 17
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, so that the Son may glorify You, 2 just as You gave Him authority over all mankind, so that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth by accomplishing the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.



Yes he did complete the work. If he didnt then receiving his Holy Spirit would not be possible.


Jn 16
The Holy Spirit Promised
5
“But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, grief has filled your heart. 7 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9 regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see Me; 11 and regarding judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.


God bless.

Dear Jeff,

When scripture says "it is finished" it is not referring to the prophecy of Daniel's seventy weeks. It is referring to Christ's work of paying mankind's sin debt (which is death) which makes our salvation possible. When He was "cut off" in the midst of the final week, it left Christ 3 1/2 years to complete the prophecy of Daniel.

The "cross" marked the change from the Old covenant of Law to the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. The New Covenant is spiritual and changes us from the inside. Since the New Covenant is spiritual, so is the meaning of the remaining 3 1/2 years.

Here is a quick overview of the 70th week I wrote a couple of days ago:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

At the start of the 70th week (483 years), Christ, now being 30 years of age, “confirmed the covenant” He made with Abraham.

Gen 15:5-6 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

This confirmation took place when Christ was baptized by John the Baptist.

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli…

Matt 3:13-15 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

At that time, the final 7 year "week" commenced which would bring an end to sin, make reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness. To complete this mission, Christ willingly went to the cross at the 3 ½ year mark (He was “cutoff”). His sacrifice purchased mankind’s sin debt and provided the pathway of salvation for mankind. As a result of Christ’s death and resurrection, the Old covenant of Law ended and the New Covenant of Grace through Faith began.

Christ’s death on the cross caused the “sacrifice and the oblation to cease”. No longer could mankind approach God through the Old Covenant of Law. Now the only approach to God is through Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ who dwells in His new temple not made with hands. That new temple is mankind.

Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

1Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

However, mankind, who being carnally minded, prefers the Old Covenant of Law over the New Covenant of Grace through Faith.

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Our carnal nature has a built in desire to show God that our “works” can make us acceptable to Him. So when a Called Out believer attempts to combine their own “works” with Grace through Faith, they “fall away”. This “falling away” is also combined with the deceptions of Satan who masquerades as Christ. When Satan’s deceptions run their full course within a Called Out believer, a worsened carnal state is developed.

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The “seven other spirits” is a spiritual term that represents the complete deception of Satan. It is the spirit of antichrist.

This worsened carnal state is called the “Man of Sin” by Paul:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Once this worsened carnal state occurs within a Called Out believer, it causes the “overspreading of abominations” which makes the Lord’s temple (themselves) desolate. This is the “sin that leads to death”.

1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

This abomination of desolation is what Christ refers to in this verse below:

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

THE REMAINING 3 ½ YEARS

The New Covenant of Grace through Faith is a spiritual covenant and it cleanses the inside of mankind. It is not bound by literal time. The New Covenant of Grace through Faith is represented by the remaining 3 ½ years which will put an end to sin. This 3 ½ years consists of two ages of time - the Church age and the Lake of Fire age (my terms). This 3 ½ years is also presented in scripture as Time, Times and half a time, 1260 days, 42 months and finally 3 ½ days.

The remaining "3 ½ years" starts within a believer when they are first Called Out from the world.

This is the time of the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

James says a lot in these two verses and its meaning is hidden in spiritual language.

Christ is the Husbandman who is a farmer. The Precious Fruit of the Earth is the New Man in Christ who is to be harvested from the Earth. The Earth represents the carnal & sinful world. The farmer “hath long patience for it” because birthing many new Sons of God is a long process and is now just getting started with the harvest of the First-Fruits in this present age.

Christ even said:

Luke 12:49 I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

“Fire” is a spiritual term for the judgment of God. Without His judgment, no one would be saved. In the above verse, Christ longs to start that process of judgment upon mankind (The First Fruits in this age, then all others in the final age) but the time was not yet at hand. Since before the creation began, Christ has been waiting patiently for that day - the Day of the Lord. It is no wonder that “patience” is one of the fruits of the Spirit.

At the end of verse 7, James says that the growing season for Christ’s harvest of mankind starts with the Early Rain. It is at this point in time that a new believer will enter the Church. The Early Rain represents the receiving of the down-payment of the Holy Spirit. However, the Early Rain of the Spirit is not sufficient for us to grow to maturity and produce fruit. It leaves the new believer carnally mind and spiritually blind. It is at this time that Satan comes to us and causes us to accept His lies. We quickly fall away and spiritually worsen into a “Man of Sin”. This is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel and Christ.

During this time, the fallen away believer desperately needs the Latter Rain of the Spirit. However, this rain will not fall upon a Called and Chosen believer until the 3 ½ years period is complete "within" them.

Later in James, he had this to say about this matter:

James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

Note: The Early Rain falls upon the “sea” where unbelievers dwell. The Latter Rain falls upon the “earth” where the Called Out believers dwell.

Once the Latter Rain falls upon a Called and Chosen believer, they are “born again” and the last 3 ½ years of Daniel's prophecy is testified to be true.

The completion of this "3 ½ years" started with the Day of Pentecost when those in the upper room received the Latter Rain of the Spirit. And it has been happening over and over again down through this age to all of Christ’s chosen Elect. But they are ONLY the First Fruits of Christ’s harvest of mankind. After this age ends, all who remain lost will go through the same process in the final age. When the last person is saved, then the "3 ½ years" will be completed and these statements will be testified to be true:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

THE 1290 DAYS AND 1335 DAYS

Dan 12:11-12 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

When Christ accomplishes our salvation upon the completion of the 1260 days (3 1/2 years), then what are the spiritual symbols 1290 days and 1335 days teaching?

One must remember that Christ’s words are spirit and they carry a spiritual meaning that is different than what man’s wisdom teaches:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Just as the 1260 days (3 ½ years) is a spiritual term which carries its own meaning, so are the terms 1290 days and 1335 days.

The 1290 days is a product of 1260 days and 30 days. When the 1260 days are completed, Christ’s Elect are born again. This starts them on a new path – the straight path with the narrow gate. The term “30 days” is symbolic of this new path. This is the time when Christ begins His judgment upon the chosen Elect's "Old Man" who stills lives within them.

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

As I pointed out earlier in this paper, Christ was said to be 30 years old when He started His ministry. He was traveling the path to be judged for the sins of the world and it took Him to the cross. Likewise, we too must pick up our cross and follow Him during our 30 days:

Matt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Once the 1260 days and 30 days are complete, we are considered “blessed” when we make it to the 1335 days. The 1335 days is a product of 1260 days, 30 days and 45 days. The term “45 days” is symbolic of the completion of Grace through Faith within us. It is the time when we produce spiritual fruit and are ready for harvest. All of Christ’s Called and Chosen Elect make it to the 1335 days.

Joe
 
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I did.
Jesus has done His part, He now waits for us to do ours, by faith in Him.

Now you address Isaiah 61:8 and prove that all the 6 results of the New Covenant are in operation now.

Hebrews 13:20 addresses Isaiah 61:8.

Your turn.

You didn't answer post 414.

For your convenience, here it is again:

Hebrews 9
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

What do you think "is of force" means?

Simple question with a simple answer.

Awaiting.
 
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