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Sheila Davis · Jan 7, 2021

Clare73 said:
You didn't know that?
Nice misrepresentation. .when the argument I presented was based in no verses with "biased translation."
The lack of soundness in your argument is not based on whoever has the most verses, and
you know it.

Your argument is not sound because of its claim that Scripture does not teach an unending hell, when the undisputed translation of the Scriptures I present show that it does. And I don't need numbers of them to make my point. Your doctrine contradicts Scripture if I present only one verse contrary to it.
It's not about numbers, it's about claiming Scripture does not present an unending fire of hell.

Feel free to Biblically show that Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2,3; 21:1-5
do not present an unending fire of hell. No disputed translations are involved here.

Sheila Davis · Jan 7, 2021

That is what you say - which also is based on the opinion of a man.
The most verses, numbers, didn't you know that : this is senseless - goodbye.

Clare73 · Jan 7, 2021

I was kidding. . .Helper knows that.

Saint Steven · Jan 7, 2021

Clare73 said:
You didn't know that?
Nice misrepresentation. .when the argument I presented was based in no verses with "biased translation."
The lack of soundness in your argument is not based on whoever has the most verses, and
you know it.

Your argument is not sound because of its claim that Scripture does not teach an unending hell, when the undisputed translation of the Scriptures I present show that it does. And I don't need numbers of them to make my point. Your doctrine contradicts Scripture if I present only one verse contrary to it.
It's not about numbers, it's about claiming Scripture does not present an unending fire of hell.

Feel free to Biblically show that Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2,3; 21:1-5
do not present an unending fire of hell. No disputed translations are involved here.

Unbiased? Undisputed?

What if we put you to the same test?
Could you prove a forever burning hell using my verses? You seem to be inferring that you could. Since I am "using them out of context".

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Saint Steven · Jan 7, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear Steve,
I just made a post to "Spiritual Jew" in the thread entitled "Concerning the return of Jesus" that is related to this subject. It may be of interest to you.
Joe

Be careful. The discussion of Universalism is only allowed in the Controversial Christian Theology area. Sorry. Those are the rules.

Saint Steven · Jan 7, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
In that carnal, God hating, spiritually blind condition how can anyone ever be saved? Scripture answers that question for us.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I was curious about that term "without repentance". Concerned that you might be misusing it. Nope. See below.

[are] irrevocable.
ἀμεταμέλητα (ametamelēta)
Adjective - Nominative Neuter Plural
Strong's Greek 278: Not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind. Irrevocable.

Clare73 · Jan 7, 2021

Clare73 said:
Nice misrepresentation. .when the argument I presented was based in no verses with "biased translation" of aionios.

Feel free to Biblically show that Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2,3; 20:15, 21:8 do not state an unending fire of hell. No disputed translations are involved here.

Saint Steven said:
Unbiased? Undisputed?

What if we put you to the same test?
Could you prove a forever burning hell using my verses?
You seem to be inferring that you could. Since I am "using them out of context".

So you're saying your verses imply no fire, which contradict my verses which actually state "fire."
Okay. . .that's a sincere question, and I'll address those verses on your basis.

I'm sure you understand that Scripture does not contradict itself.
So why are your interpretations of the Scriptures below in contradiction to the Scriptures of
Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 23:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2,3, 20:15, 21:8?

Because of dual uses of some words in the NT with which you evidently
are not familiar--all and many:

all:
a) all without exception
b) all without distinction

many:
c) does not exclude "all" = can mean "all"
d) excludes "all" = some

I'll indicate in the verses below which meaning is meant regarding all, a) or b),
and which meaning is meant regarding many, c) or d).

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins
of the whole world. = b)

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone = a)
over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all = b).

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, = b)

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all = b)
people, and especially of those who believe
[having warned of deceiving spirits and things taught by demons (v.1),
Paul warns of demonic teachings from hypocritical liars whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron (v.2)
and the lies they teach (v.3),
and to whom he is contrasting those who believe (v.10),
the fallen whom God has put in a savable state rather than in an unsavable state like the fallen angels (v.1); i.e.,
fallen man can be saved, but the fallen angels (v.1) cannot be saved]

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. = b)

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, = a)
so in Christ all will be made alive. = b)

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many = c)
died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! = d)
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many = c)
trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all = a)
people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all = b)
people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many = c)
were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many = d)
will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all = a)
things, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all = a)
people— 2 for kings and all = a), including Nero
those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all = b)
people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all = b)
people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

So usage of the contextual meaning, where dual meanings exist, reconciles all your list of Scriptures to Mk 9:43, 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2,3, 20:15, 21:8 on unending fire, thereby removing all contradictions among them, which constitutes definitive Biblical proof that these are correct interpretations of your list.

FaithWillDo · Jan 7, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I was curious about that term "without repentance". Concerned that you might be misusing it. Nope. See below.

[are] irrevocable.
ἀμεταμέλητα (ametamelēta)
Adjective - Nominative Neuter Plural
Strong's Greek 278: Not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind. Irrevocable.

I have considered that understanding before and it seems to make sense. However, there is just one problem that causes me to not change my understanding. The "gifts" are revocable. With my present understanding, it is confirmed with other scripture.

What do you think?

I'll consider it more.
Joe

FaithWillDo · Jan 7, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Be careful. The discussion of Universalism is only allowed in the Controversial Christian Theology area. Sorry. Those are the rules.

Thanks for letting me know.
Joe

FaithWillDo · Jan 7, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I was curious about that term "without repentance". Concerned that you might be misusing it. Nope. See below.

[are] irrevocable.
ἀμεταμέλητα (ametamelēta)
Adjective - Nominative Neuter Plural
Strong's Greek 278: Not to be repented of, about which no change of mind can take place, not affected by change of mind. Irrevocable.

Steve,
I looked at it again and I believe you are right. It is only speaking about the Nation of Israel and not gifts of the Spirit. That change doesn't affect the fact though that Christ gives us His gifts first and that causes us to repent and accept Him. From looking at Rom 11:28, it is teaching on a different subject.

Thanks for pointing that error out.
Joe

Saint Steven · Jan 7, 2021

Clare73 said:
all:
a) all without exception
b) all without distinction

many:
c) does not exclude "all"
d) excludes "all" = some

I'll indicate in the verses below which meaning is meant regarding all, a) or b):
and where many does not exclude "all".

The verses in question are direct comparisons. You can't change the meanings to suit your opinion. "all" = all and "the many" = the many (and "the many" = all)

You are imposing your doctrinal opinions on the Bible.
And yes, the Bible does contradict itself. Is salvation by grace or by works? What does that Bible say?

None of that proves a forever burning hell anyway.

Saint Steven · Jan 7, 2021

Clare73 said:
So you're saying your verses imply no fire, which contradict the verses which actually state "fire."

No. There will be fire, but no hell of eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape.

Clare73 · Jan 7, 2021

Saint Steven said:
The verses in question are direct comparisons. You can't change the meanings to suit your opinion. "all" = all and "the many" = the many (and "the many" = all)

You are imposing your doctrinal opinions on the Bible.
And yes, the Bible does contradict itself. Is salvation by grace or by works? What does that Bible say?

No, my friend, the Bible is the Word of God, and God does not contradict himself.

Any contradictions you perceive, as in grace vs. works, are the product of your misunderstanding of them.

None of that proves a forever burning hell anyway.

But Mk 9:43; 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2,3, 20:15, 21:8 do prove unending fire.

Saint Steven · Jan 7, 2021

Clare73 said:
But Mk 9:43; 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2,3, 21:1-5 do prove unending fire.

I told you that there was translation bias. But you claimed these verses were uncontested. I would say it has to do with the quality rather than duration of the fire. And what is the purpose of the fire? Is it curative and restorative? Or is God torturing countless billions of souls for all eternity that he predestined to hell? Does he take please in such things? Is he helpless to stop it?

FaithWillDo · Jan 7, 2021

Saint Steven said:
The verses in question are direct comparisons. You can't change the meanings to suit your opinion. "all" = all and "the many" = the many (and "the many" = all)

You are imposing your doctrinal opinions on the Bible.
And yes, the Bible does contradict itself. Is salvation by grace or by works? What does that Bible say?

None of that proves a forever burning hell anyway.

Steve,
I also have to say that God's Word does not contradict itself. If a person believes there is a contradiction, then their understanding of the verses in question are at fault. Sometimes it is caused by a poor translation but the apparent contradiction is always resolvable. As for works vs. Grace, one is the Old Covenant that cannot save anyone and the other is the New Covenant. What scripture says about works is that our faith and Spiritual fruit produce good works, not the other way around. In fact, we have no works that we can claim - all our good works are caused by God and He gets the credit.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Also, when a believer adds ANY works to their salvation that they claim as coming from themselves, they have committed the sin that leads to death. The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common cause of committing the sin that leads to death. In fact, scripture says that ALL Called Out believers will commit the sin that leads to death. Everyone who receives the Early Rain "falls away" and cannot be renewed by repentance. Christ must come a second time. That is why the second coming (Latter Rain) of Christ is so important. Without it, no one would be saved.

Joe

Clare73 · Jan 7, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I told you that there was translation bias. But you claimed these verses were uncontested. I would say it has to do with the quality rather than duration of the fire. And
what is the purpose of the fire? Is it curative and restorative?

Are you crazy!

I don't know 'bout you, but I ain't never gonna' love nobody what burns me in fire, and the longer he burns me there, the more I will hate him!

And to reason from sentiment, as you and Light-of-the-East do,
if he's God, and if he takes no pleasure in torment, then why doesn't he make it easy on both of us, and just zap me into purified?

Or is God torturing countless billions of souls for all eternity that he predestined to hell? Does he take please in such things? Is he helpless to stop it?

You know nothing Biblical of the justice of God.

Was he helpless to stop the torture of the whip and the agony of the crucifixion of his Son?
Did he take pleasure in it?

Shrewd Manager · Jan 8, 2021

Clare73 said:
But Mk 9:43; 47-48; Mt 12:32; Lk 3:17; Rev 14:11, 19:2,3, 20:15, 21:8 do prove unending fire.

The fire is eternal, but man's stay in it is temporary. Fine distinction I know, but do try to pay attention:

For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good; (Mk 9:49-50a)

Saying everyone will get the fire treatment, it is good for us.

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Mt 12:32)

You are misinterpreting this verse to read that rejection or blasphemy of the HS will never be forgiven. The meaning is that so long as you oppose the Kingdom, you will remain outside. This motif is found everywhere. The wages of sin is death, perishing for lack of knowledge etc. But eventually, you'll all come round. Why? Because God swore an oath that every knee will bow and tongue confess, just as He promised Abraham that all the nations would be blessed, and just as Jesus came to save the world from condemnation.

His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. (Lk 3:17)

Yes, our God is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29). The eternal fire IS God's presence. It burns the off the dross. The Greek word is PUR. Only God is eternal.

Then set it empty on its coals
So that it may be hot
And its bronze may glow
And its filthiness may be melted in it,
Its rust consumed.
She has wearied Me with toil,
Yet her great rust has not gone from her;
Let her rust be in the fire!
In your filthiness is lewdness.
Because I would have cleansed you,
Yet you are not clean,
You will not be cleansed from your filthiness again
Until I have spent My wrath on you.
(Ez 24:11-13)

See how that works? It's called prophetic rhetoric.

he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name. (Rev 14:10-11)

Great, so ppl who take the Covid vaccine become hard-bitten corrupted slaves of the devil who can't stand to be in the presence of Jesus and the angels.

But it's ok, don't give up now, because God's salvation is soon revealed:

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. (Rev 15:4)

And then consummated in the eschaton:

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (Rev 21:24)

and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2b)

Good newsflash sister - JESUS WINS!

Saint Steven · Jan 8, 2021

Clare73 said:
You know nothing Biblical of the justice of God.

On the contrary. God's justice is curative and restorative. People tend to forget that mercy is always an option in justice. Humans want their enemies to be punished. Jesus taught us that godliness means to love your enemies. (Matthew 5:43-48)

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

Saint Steven · Jan 8, 2021

Clare73 said:
Are you crazy!

I don't know 'bout you, but I ain't never gonna' love nobody what burns me in fire, and the longer he burns me there, the more I will hate him!

And to reason from sentiment, as you and Light-of-the-East do,
if he's God, and if he takes no pleasure in torment, then why doesn't he make it easy on both of us, and just zap me into purified?

You are already familiar with the fire we are talking about. Only the wood, hay or straw will be consumed. "Everyone will be salted with fire." - Mark 9:49

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

mlepfitjw · Jan 8, 2021

@FineLinen Miss and love you brother.

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